Ideas for overheating.. HALP ME!

[JAinsworth]

Braden,

Can you manually turn your fans off? If so, try the "I have to run 80 to keep up with Jimmy " and cut the fans off. Free air flow may give you more that the fan blades getting in the way and slowing the flow down. Wild thought, but I'd give it a try.

Jimmy

[JAinsworth]

After re-reading what is above; the thermostat opening temperature has little to do with the operating temp. of the engine. The thermo opens at the beginning point of cooling, it cannot control what the rest of the cooling system does to control engine temperature. For example, you have a clogged radiator and a 160 thermostat. It will open at 160, not make it through the system, engine will overheat. Put in a 187 thermo.; same thing will happen.

Jimmy

[JohnnyWadd]

Is the problem in the coolant flow through or block and head?

[Shelby]

cp> Now this isn't your normal over heating situation. Anyone who has had one of these cars and has either done: doughnuts, drifted it, or maybe even just drove the car hard for a while knows they get hot quick.

So while drifting my car i can do two or three runs (40 seconds max, heater on 90* full blast) in a 5 minute period and then the car starts getting warm over half to 3/4 on the gauge < cp

 

how'd we all miss this ( 40 seconds )

 

you got a head gasket going out or head bolts not tourqed , eather way the gasket is not holding

 

now don't take that as being the entire fix the other sugestions still go

[ucw458]

this is my last effort at trying to reason with you,, you can't seem to understand your own writeing,, what turns on an electric fan and what is a thermostats job , if a rad fan don't turn on until 224f how can the engine be running 176f ,, the ONLY job a thermostat has is to open and close ,, by your own description none of yours is working properly

 

oh and on mox lean fuel and high combustion temps causes monoxides,,we never had a problem with them until after they started trying to run cleaner,,but then again you haven't had 40 years to learn this stuff have you ,, once created the only way to remove them is to burn them up,,thats the job of the catilitic convertor

 

and 176f was the same temps myMPi was running on a 100f day with a 180 stat with air bleed holes in it

 

 

Shelby I'm not picking on you just trying to have a rational discussion.

 

I wasn't talking about monoxides. I was refering to NOX, nitrides of oxygen. It's an ozone depleting gas created by high combustion temps. Catalytic converters don't burn NOX. Instead it uses heat and reactive surfaces to "crack" the NOX into nitrogen and oxygen. Just because I've only been into engines for 20 years and not 40 doesn't mean I don't know anything.

 

All my thermostats are working properly. Having worked on cars as long as you have you should know that they spike then settle to a lower temp. Watch your own temp gauge when you warm up your car tomorrow. You will notice the exact same thing I described. Also if all my thermostats weren't working properly as you claim then I would have 3 overheated engines but I don't. All 3 stats were replaced within the last 2 years.

 

Also a fan turn on temp doesn't mean the engine will run that hot. My MPI car runs at a steady 176 but the 185 fan switch cycles the fan normally. Also it doesn't matter if the fan is set to turn on at 224 degrees, that doesn't mean the engine temp will always be 224. For example, 2013 GMC sierra owners manual states for the majority of operating conditions the temp will be 210 or less. When towing or going up steep hills it states the temp can get up to 235. That seems a little too hot to me but I didn't design the engine. That temp would certainly kill an older engine.

 

 

Page 5-15 GMC sierra owners manual.

 

http://www.gmc.com/content/dam/GMC/global/master/nscwebsite/en/home/Owners/Manuals/01_Images/13Sierra-Owners-Manual.pdf

[Technology]

The answer is definitely something worth fighting about.

 

OP: why don't you try flushing the system or take it to a shop and axe them? Maybe don't drift it.

[Shelby]

The answer is definitely something worth fighting about.

 

OP: why don't you try flushing the system or take it to a shop and axe them? Maybe don't drift it.

 

DEFF do not try to drift this engine any more till the temp thing is fixed .

 

I was under the impression that this was a new radiator , if so is it a 2 row or single row,, single row won't cut it ,, any one else using the same radiator and are they having troubles , if it is older then 3 yrs deff have it roded is it one you can see the fin inlets , probly not

 

the oem rad mits used is more then adequate for your use,, it's one of the few cars that do have a large enough rad system these days but it wasn't designed for todays cars , today cars and trucks get by with the bare minimum the manufacture can get by with

 

as for a thermostat operation they are almost never completely closed sept for the first start up cold ,

after that it's moveing open and closed by vareing degrees the entire time the engine is running,,

it's only job is to allow coolant to leave the block and enter the radiator so the excess heat can be removed ,, this works great as long as the rad has done it's job of removeing the heat from the last batch of coolant it recived,, now is where it gets stupid , the coolant comeing out of the rad is lets say 192-195f and I have found NO late model oem stat with a lesser reading this hot coolant enters the rad but does it loose it's heat ,some maybe from road air flow but the major portion of the held in heat has to set there until the thermo swt turns on,, NOW if that swt has to see 224f before it turns on how can the coolant entering the engine be 176f , when the thermostat opens again ,, it's a given that the engine temp has to be more then 224f in order for the rad's temp to reach 224f in the first place ,,the surge you mention in the temp gauge is this super hot coolant trying to stabilize as the coolant leaves the engine and enters the rad , do I watch the temp gauge sure I do I can tell if the engine is low on oil simply by watching the temp gauge, the average engine will increase it's coolant temp 15f when 1 qt low on oil , oil is a better temp remover then coolant,, that's one reason my turbo truck holds almost 8 qts of oil , that huge M-Benze oil cooler may be one of the reasons the truck hold temps so well under load

 

but back to the rad and coolant temps , not sure what the FSM says about coolant capacity but the older cars had systems that held 16-21 qts depending on engine size , ours holds what 2 gal that's 8 qts ,, now which would be easier to keep cool.

 

once the entire coolant system has reached the max amount of heat it can remove the over all temp of the coolant will start to climb getting hotter and hotter the longer the engine is ran ,, to fix this you need more air flow,( more fans) or more coolant in the system

 

the OP's says his car gets hot under load,, well theres a couple of things that can be the cause,, rad not of capacity for the engine, the rad is partialy pluged , the system does not have enough air flow across rad , the coolant flow thru the system may be blocked off,, causeing a hot spot that is super heating the coolant , or as I suspect a leaking head gasket ( I did not say blown head gasket )

but sence this is happening under high boost only i'd suspect a slight leak due to uneven clamping force on gasket

 

doing a retorque while paying attention to how much the wrench position moved can help you decide if the clamping force was off or not ,,most never think about this but a nut starts at the exact same thread every time it is threaded onto a bolt or stud , so if you loosen a nut torqued @ say 80 lbs,, it'll return to that same position when retorqued to 80 lbs , if that wrench passes that spot by an addition 90 degrees turn ,,you can be sure the clamping force on that nut was not where it should have been , it'll be almost completely loose at a 1/4 turn counter closewise

[Shelby]

Also a fan turn on temp doesn't mean the engine will run that hot. My MPI car runs at a steady 176 but the 185 fan switch cycles the fan normally. Also it doesn't matter if the fan is set to turn on at 224 degrees, that doesn't mean the engine temp will always be 224. For example, 2013 GMC sierra owners manual states for the majority of operating conditions the temp will be 210 or less. When towing or going up steep hills it states the temp can get up to 235. That seems a little too hot to me but I didn't design the engine. That temp would certainly kill an older engine.

>cp

 

 

if you read BMW owners manual it will tell you that during certain conditions the engine temps may be higher then 260f and this is normal ' NOT ' maybe for them it is normal after all when the engine destroys it's self they will SELL you another

[Shelby]

 

 

I don't have a new car to give you a temp reading. So I looked up a T-stat for a 2012 chevy 1500 since you mentioned GM. The OEM replacement stat is a 187 degree. I can't see how an engine with a 187 degree stat can have an operating temp of 230 degrees. Heck my G54B has an OEM style 195 stat and after it opens it runs at 176 degrees. I know this because I watched it on my laptop. Temp would spike to 195, stat would open and then the temp settles down to 176. So how can an engine with a 187 degree stat have an operating temp of 230 degrees?

 

 

Furthermore, excessive engine operating temps leads to excessive combustion temps. Excessive combustion temps can raise the NOX emissions ten fold. Causing any vehicle to fail smog.

 

see here's the thing most young guys don't realize ,this nox thing is some thing that the car makers created , by the use of over leaning the engine fuel mix and using junk fuel , before the eminsions thing got started we had no such problem , all that was realy needed to pass any eminsions testing was to install a cat on any car on the road and use the old gas,, NOTHING came out the tail pipe but water vapor ,, but that wouldn't make them enough money , this entire crap gas and huge amount of money spent on electronics we didn't need is a sham to get your money

 

how can you justify having to use 2 gal of fuel to go the same distance as you did on 1 gal , it's not the air they wanted to clean up it was your wallet they wanted to clean out , and so far they've done a very good job

 

now I did not say all electronics are bad, fuel injection is better then carbs by leaps and bounds , whats bad is causeing all these eminsion problems then using a made up excuse to get your money that makes me mad

[Lizzord30]

I know alot of people in japan that drift will have a switch to turn all their fans on full when they are drifting partially because when the car is sideways you dont get a good air flow into the front air inlet.

[jszucs]

Tuning, bra. Make it run richard and it'll cool it off. Fuel is a MAJOR coolant for the engine.

 

That's what Harlies do. Atleast the older one's.

 

I would say if the radiator is big enough and got enough flow, and has a better core design, it should do the trick without fans if your not beating on it. I have run mine now without fans, and not been able to pass 180. The radiator is big though, like 3" thick and meant for a performance 350 so I'm guessing it's got way more then enough capacity. It also had to be modified to work, and still took some bashing on the frame rails to fit.

[BOOSTED88tsi]

is there room to add a puller fan?

 

 

instead of making a larger wp pulley, you could pick up an underdrive crank pulley to slow down the wp. Is the lower radiator hose reinforced (spiral metal)?

I think im going to try and find a under drive pulley for sure now. No the hose isn't reinforced its the direct fit for the sr20 rad swap.

Try "Water Wetter"

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pApWgZdozQA

Already got it in there. I use it in everything as theyre a bay area company.

need more hood vents! and if you can fab stuff then you could fab some shrouds to direct air to the important places instead of allowing it to go where it wants.

Got my hood propped a lot in the back (jdm cowl) as scotty dont calls it. It defiantly helps but not as much as a cowl or a vented hood would.

from your description, it sound like essentially you're getting heat soaked. in that, you're not overheating right away, but gradually you keep producing more heat than you can dissipate over an extended use, rather than within a few minutes of use.

 

what is the flow capacity for that radiator? if you can't pass enough coolant through the radiator during a certain time frame, then it's gonna be pretty useless. yeah the AL has great heat dissipation, but if the core design is a bottle neck for volume, that could cause some of your issues. can you find the specs for the radiator?

 

running only a pusher fan is not the best option at all, thats for sure. plus, you probably need to build some sort of air tract in the front using some sheet metal. the tract walls should be perpendicular to the radiator, NOT flared out like a funnel. definitely get a puller fan and proper fan shroud.

 

 

deal with the essentials for a set up and let us no.

The heat soaking is basically whats happening but i don't know if its the block or just the cooalnt being aerated. i don't know the flow capacity i just know its a 2 row sr20 al radiator. I've had a taurus fan for years and i think ill be seeing if i can get it wired up on this thing.

Proper ducting will make a huge difference. Make sure that you have no "holes"where air can pass around the rad. I've done a lot of wind tunnel work, and it makes a HUGE difference. Grab a roll of aluminum tape and go to town. Also a vented hood...and a puller fan. Ford Taurus fan, on the cheap pulls mad cfms. Or just swap the f ing thing and enjoy... Lol

Im going a a lot slower than horsetheif or balcony i feel like john. I'm top of second sometimes 3rd but i don't think theres enough air flow at those low of speeds while sideways. I wish i could swap it but i don't want to drop the cash on this car, its quite well setup for what it is and it runs great other than over heating.

come on guys , my truck had a lot smaller rad then the quest uses and on back to back 20 lb boost 1/4 mile runs i'd barely get to 190f , that rad is too small for the engine and forget the electric fans go with mechanical thermo clutch fan set up and not the el cheapo one the good one ,,having the proper shrould on there is a must

another thing is any heater hoses closed off or bypassed , i'd use a 160f stat with a 1/8th hole drilled in it or a 180 with 2 1/8 th " holes drilled in it

 

it was like this the Tainter's would make a run and by the time they got back from the return road the engine was still over heated doing the same run by the time I was 1/2 way back the return road the temp was back to normal , while they had to run all 3 fans for 15-20 minutes to cool their car down ,

you'll never notice any loss of HP from a good clutch fan set up

No heater hoses closed off or bypassed. I don't think i could get a mechanical fan in the space i have shelby. What the tainters car was doing sounds exactly what mine does.

I agree with Hachi and Shelby. I have a spare hood that I made for my car that you could try out. My cooling fans failed two weeks ago and I've been rolling my car in 125 Vegas heat hard, barely makes it above 1/4 on the temp gauge... maybe try taking your hood off to see. And as far as what Shelby said, in a less grumpy old man way, you're fans aren't coming on at a proper temp.

Car runs a lot cooler with out the hood as the hot air has way more room to escape. But my car looks like crap without the hood on, and i don't feel like taking it off every event. Im down to buy the hood off you at the vegas meet for sure.

 

The answer is definitely something worth fighting about.

 

OP: why don't you try flushing the system or take it to a shop and axe them? Maybe don't drift it.

Cars got brand new coolant in it. less than 6 months when i did the rad. Dont drift it isn't an option, these cars are great at it, this is the only problem.

[BOOSTED88tsi]

oh yeah and my headgasket isn't blown. Its not like the car is stone cold the second i start drifting and then is pegged hot after a run. I drive the car to the track, unload and then get in line. We get 20 minute run times per group and theres 3 groups so 40 minutes to cool down. I can get 2 or 3 runs after driving the car up there and hopping in line aka the cars still at opertating temp from the drive and then it starts to get hot. The number goes up after the car cools down for 40 minutes the and the temp drops outside. For the 40+ seconds im out the car is sitting at 4500-6k the whole time, sideways too so theres no direct air flow into the rad. Edited July 8, 2013 by BOOSTED88tsi

[patra_is_here]

also, I hope you're running mostly water and just a little coolant to prevent corrosion. water has a higher heat capacity than anti-freeze.

 

and, maybe hinge spacers for the hood?

 

i assume you don't have the AC radiator in the way still.

[BOOSTED88tsi]

i have hood hinge spacers, i am using coolant im going to swap it out with mostly water when i do the taurus fan. no a/c crap

[scott87star]

So, what is overheating? Let's make this a educational thread. Shelby has already stated, correctly, that the newer cars are built to run hotter. I see way too many guys trying to run these cars too cool.

[Convette]

Yeah getting air to the front is tough when going sideways. I'd say with a good fan, proper ducting and a hood vent you'd be fine. I cut 3" out of my radiator, but also did the hood vents and the car still runs super cool. Even sitting in traffic on a 100 degree day, my fan candrop it from 210 to 180 no problem. I'm running a dual pass 3" jegs rad, and 1 auto zone fan. Little to no coolent and a few drops of water wetter. The hood vents are key. Especially placement. You could always go all out and duct some 5" holes from the sides of the bumper to the rad, but it will look like hell.. Lol.

[JohnnyWadd]

On the topic of underdrive, I wonder if the solid pulleys off the d-50 and Montero's etc etc could be chucked up on a lathe and turned down to be smaller? I have had a few of them in hand and I think its doable. You'd have a slight underdrive pulley that weighted less than stock. The grooves in those pulleys are deep enough to allow some material to go away.

[Shelby]

whats too cold very good question ,and the answer depends on whats your doing and what your using for fuel , the engine needs to be hot enough to help fuel stay in vapor form and not form a puddle

but at the same time not so hot it causes preignition , turbo air temps climb quickly ,my personal preferances is a starting temp of say 170-176 and a finesh ruin of like 190-195 f maybe 200 on a real hot day

but I can't see you being able to maintain that cool of a temp , but 220f to 230 f or so should be doable , my caravan has been holding 220f for over 255k miles and still runs good ,,but you deff will not see me using any 5 weight - any thing for oil , here I use only 20-50 , and 20-50 has keep it togather for a long time

 

your main problem is you have no road air speed to help the air flow and the engine compartment is acting like a box , you need to make escape holes to get the hot air out of there asap

fabing hot air flaps is not out of the question that you can open and close as you choise

 

no one said you can't run a larger oil cooler

[jszucs]

Ok so it sounds like the hardware will not be upgraded by the OP. So lets go with what we got. You got two options as far as I see it. You can get yourself 2 puller fan so they are really sucking air though the radiator. They make very slim one's.... beleive me there is no space left after adding a 3" thick radiator and my crank pickup. They do fit. Larger one on drivers side and smaller one on top passenger side. This also flows allot of air over your manifold / turbo setup. (In my case with all the holes open for AC ECT it blows right in on the passenger. Sucks for them.

 

Option 2 is to add vents facing the sides. Also yank that header pannel and cut a vent facing each way in it. If you got a nice header pannel DON"T SCREW IT UP. Give it to someone who's got a more messed up one, and cut up the messed up one.

 

Personaly if your pounding on it for drift there is no reason you shouldn't do both, your pushing the car to far for what you got and it's letting you know before something bad happens.

Edited July 9, 2013 by jszucs

[Technology]

seems like the easiest place to start is with two really good fans. you can remove a lot of heat through the exhaust. a larger turbine housing and 3" exhaust would help, and a side effect would be more power. Edited July 9, 2013 by Technology

[patra_is_here]

you should probably just do drift events in the winter. problem solved.

[jszucs]

you should probably just do drift events in the winter. problem solved.

 

That is every road in CLE all winter long for me

[Edde]

When my 87 was new and for the first 10 or so years it never ever even hinted at getting hot. It was just like running a Tercel or something. And I beat the dog %$&** # out of it all day every day. I put tons of miles on it running a sales route the first 2 years or so. Fast forward to the last 10 or so years and it's more like what others complain about. Temp creep in traffic, etc. Over time I've swapped electric fans, radiators, tstats, etc all to no avail. I mean I've had better and worse but never like it was when new.

 

The only thing that is consistent is that I switched to a Clearwater head some years back and I do wonder if it could be as simple as that.

[jszucs]

When my 87 was new and for the first 10 or so years it never ever even hinted at getting hot. It was just like running a Tercel or something. And I beat the dog %$&** # out of it all day every day. I put tons of miles on it running a sales route the first 2 years or so. Fast forward to the last 10 or so years and it's more like what others complain about. Temp creep in traffic, etc. Over time I've swapped electric fans, radiators, tstats, etc all to no avail. I mean I've had better and worse but never like it was when new.

 

The only thing that is consistent is that I switched to a Clearwater head some years back and I do wonder if it could be as simple as that.

 

Swapping to used or a brand new radiator, fan, tstat all at once? Ever an upgraded swap? Do you think it's more an issue of junk building up in the block, and water not contacting metal to metal, or not flowing well? IS there just a bad water design in our jackets? You ever mod your Tstats?