permatex ultra grey 1uzfe

[Mech]

Going to re-seal front timing cover, oil pan etc on the 1uzfe im building..

 

i contacted permatex, told them the toyota part number TFIG ( toyota form in gasket) RTV listed in my lexus factory service manual...they recommended Ultra Grey.

 

I bought the ultra grey, and on the instructions is says:

 

 

Apply a continuous and even bead of silicone to one surface; surround all bolt holes. Assemble parts immediately. Finger tighten bolts until material begins to squeeze out around flange. Allow to dry for one hour then retighten 1/4 to 1/2 turn. 4. Silicone dries in 1 hour, and fully cures in 24 hours

 

 

 

There is no mention of this in the lexus manual...it says to apply it and torque to specs. in fact, it says if you wait longer than 5 mins, then you have to remove it and re-apply.

 

I told permatex this, and they said i should follow the instructions that came with the ultra grey.

 

 

The front timing cover and block are precision machines surfaces...if i wait one hour, and the RTV is hard..or semi hard whatever.....then the machined surfaces wont be sitting properly.....and the RTV will be forced out....???

 

 

I posted about this on lexus forum....but dont think i will get much help.....and there isnt a lexus dealer nearby where i can pop in and have a chat with a tech...

 

now what i should i do!

[Turbo Cary]

So there is no gasket for it? The manual says to use permatex or a sealant? If so basically prep both surfaces and make sure they are free of dirt or oil, then apply a decent coat of the sealant to the timing cover.

 

Be careful when putting it up to the engine and try not to move it against the block and smear the sealant. Get all the bolts run down by hand and torque it to spec. Starting from the middle of the cover (either if there are bolts in the center or the outer edges) then go in an X pattern across it when torquing it. I would wait at least a few hours for it to cure before adding fluids or running it.

 

Make sure you also put sealant around the bolt holes and not just the spaces between them

Edited November 17, 2014 by Turbo Cary

[Turbo Cary]

Also I use Ultra Grey at work. Its the best thing for sealing oil pans and stuff that comes into contact with oils. Edited November 18, 2014 by Turbo Cary

[Mech]

There is no gasket i.e rubber, paper cork

 

its two machined surfaces...

 

the only thing that "seals" it is the RTV

 

the manual states to use seal packing ( toyotas way of saying use RTV) 08826-00080 or equivalent.......the equivalent being ultra grey according to permatex

[Turbo Cary]

So you should be good using ultra Grey rtv Edited November 18, 2014 by Turbo Cary

[LSQuest88]

I always have used the permatex ultra black since I started wrenching on stuff. I'm assuming same thing as ultra grey but different color? That stuff seals great. I don't put it on silicone or aluminum gaskets but anything else I do. I swear by that stuff. I think your over thinking it. Make sure you wait the 24 hours for full cure if you can before it comes in contact with oil and you'll be fine

[psu_Crash]

Ultra Gray is rated "Import Spec". Black has "high oil resistance" Gray also cures to a semi rigid texture compared to the black staying more pliable. I use the gray on most all sealing surfaces, but I have used black in the past. From my experience they both do the trick and seal up fine. Gray seems to make a more permanent seal and bond things together solid making it more difficult to disassemble. In my opinion that's a good thing.

It really boils down to personal preference.

 

From Permatex's web site.

 

Ultra Gray

OEM specified. Permatex^® Ultra silicones were developed to meet today’s technology changes. Sensor-safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Outstanding oil resistance and joint movement tolerance. Eight times more flexible than cork/composite gaskets; three times more oil resistant than conventional silicones. Temperature range -65?F to 500?F (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration

 

Ultra Black

OEM specified. For dealership warranty requirements, Ultra Black^® ensures extended drivetrain warranty compliance. Fast-curing formula. Sensor-safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Meets performance specs of OE silicone gaskets. Retains high flexibility, oil resistant properties through use of a patented adhesion system. Temperature range -65°F to 500°F (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration.

Edited November 18, 2014 by psu_Crash

[TexasQuest]

I've used the grey on engine block gaskets like the oil pan and the timing cover. I work at a Nissan dealership and it's used everywhere so I can get it free.

[Malykaii]

1 I thing your over thinking this. People have been using silicone for everything for decades.

 

2 Don't bother going to a dealership, guys are paid by the job/commision, not the hour or salary. Hence no one will look your way.

 

3 There is no correct answer, so even I'd you polled all the techs at Toyota, you'd get numerous answers.

[TexasQuest]

By no means go to a stealership. The Permatex grey stuff will suffice.

[Mech]

The question is this...

 

Do I apply then tighten bolts finger tight..allow to dry then torque to specs.

 

Or.

 

Apply and torque to specs immediately.

 

 

Edited November 18, 2014 by Mech

[ucw458]

If both surfaces are machined flat then apply a thin film and torque it down. If it has reliefs in it for sealant like an oil pan then apply a thin bead and torque down.

 

Don't wait for silicone to set before torquing down when using paper gaskets or no gasket. Letting it set before torquing is an old trick for cork gaskets.

[jjohnson]

⬆⬆⬆ agree 2 machined surfaces only need a thin coat tourque down and let cure overnight.

[importwarrior]

i agree don't wait torque to spec.

[MPGorBOOST]

JB Weld the parts together and you'll be fine they say...

[psu_Crash]

I usually apply a thin layer then snug things down, let it sit for a bit, maybe 15-20 minutes, then torque to spec. Old habits die hard

[Mech]

If both surfaces are machined flat then apply a thin film and torque it down. If it has reliefs in it for sealant like an oil pan then apply a thin bead and torque down.

 

Don't wait for silicone to set before torquing down when using paper gaskets or no gasket. Letting it set before torquing is an old trick for cork gaskets.

 

exactly...

 

i knew it would would be torque immediately, how can you compress RTV thats hardened like that? you cant.

 

i just dont like conflicting information.....especially with all the time im putting into this engine.

 

i dont know why toyota didnt use an anaerobic sealant for the the flat machined surfaces.....thats what i used back when i worked on mercedes.

 

although, there are grooves/reliefs machined into the surfaces...but not all way around...its a bit strange.

 

i can see what permatex is saying with their instructions....ultra grey is listed is a gasket maker....as in its creating a gasket....

 

.the original RTV i scraped from the engine is grey in color...so the ultra grey seems appropriate. I know permatex has recommened the ultra grey with the toyota part no. i provided.....but it just seems like something that is listed as a "gasket maker" should be used..

Edited November 18, 2014 by Mech

[IntercooledFlatty]

the Dana cover on my Ram has no gasket. clean it, bead of black silicone and bolt down, fill it with oil and roll another 100,000 miles and it has never leaked a drop

[4WStarion]

I use the Toyota genuine stuff on Toyotas, it is now black. (and now on old British stuff and all sumps because it is awesome) but it is spendy. $90 our money so maybe 40 quid for a tube. Says you have 3 minutes before it gets tacky.

 

As good as the usual stuff is the amount they use from the factory and the size of the front timing chain covers I don't bother risking it.

[Malykaii]

^I'm willing to bet it's awesome stuff indeed. Just terms like "risking it" are very misleading. (Its actually a logical fallacy) Sorry.

 

We're debating glue essentially. As long as its produced consistently, it WILL be sticky like intended. As long as you follow instructions, it WILL dry. In turn, it WILL seal. If there are variables like poor cleaning or cracks in surfaces, then it WILL NOT work as intended, regardless of price or brand.

 

On bitog people post product data sheets and chemical compositions of products when debating pros and cons. (Example being how one type of silicone contains more X and can stick to aluminum better,however lacks in Y and is less heat resistant) Without these details, it's tough to say if anything is being risked.

 

Would you have a part number for the stuff, as I'd love to look into why it may actually be superior and what,if anything, is in it that justifies the price. If its superior, I'll def make the switch myself.

[Shelby]

you wait to alow the sealant to get firm enough to cause resistance to the clamping force , going from sealing the cover and emeditedly torque will cause the sealant to not have proper crush and make a poor seal

 

I've done a great many m-benze lower block and oil pans with only aviation permatex

same with sealing floating cyl jugs

[tankbob]

Since everyones on the topic of the 1uz and permatex I have a sc400 that Ive done the trans pan gasket 3 times and it still leaks. The first two times I tried with a rubber gasket, horrible idea. Third time I used permatex ultra gray and a fel pro gasket, I tightened the bolts with a socket and my hand nearly full hand tightened, let it sit for an hour, gave 1/2-3/4 turn, and let it sit for longer than 24 hours before filling with fluid and driving. That was blindly following directions on the permatex as going full hand tightened right away would have worked better but Im still not confident I can redo it again without it leaking. It difficult to get it held up with some bolts without smearing the permatex and this is supposed to be my DD so Im thinking about letting a mechanic handle it. Edited November 20, 2014 by tankbob

[ucw458]

Since everyones on the topic of the 1uz and permatex I have a sc400 that Ive done the trans pan gasket 3 times and it still leaks. The first two times I tried with a rubber gasket, horrible idea. Third time I used permatex ultra gray and a fel pro gasket, I tightened the bolts with a socket and my hand nearly full hand tightened, let it sit for an hour, gave 1/2-3/4 turn, and let it sit for longer than 24 hours before filling with fluid and driving. That was blindly following directions on the permatex as going full hand tightened right away would have worked better but Im still not confident I can redo it again without it leaking. It difficult to get it held up with some bolts without smearing the permatex and this is supposed to be my DD so Im thinking about letting a mechanic handle it.

 

Don't use a gasket. Just use grey or black silicone. My preference is black mainly because it works and the color blends into painted engine schemes. When you have the pan off check to see if it's flat. Bolt holes usually get distorted so tap those flush with a hammer. Then lay a bead on the pan and install. You should have no more leaks after that.

 

 

The problem with silicone and pan gaskets is the silicone acts as a lube and the gasket gets spit out the sides when torqued down. Using just silicone prevents those type of leaks.

[4WStarion]

^I'm willing to bet it's awesome stuff indeed. Just terms like "risking it" are very misleading. (Its actually a logical fallacy) Sorry.

 

We're debating glue essentially. As long as its produced consistently, it WILL be sticky like intended. As long as you follow instructions, it WILL dry. In turn, it WILL seal. If there are variables like poor cleaning or cracks in surfaces, then it WILL NOT work as intended, regardless of price or brand.

 

On bitog people post product data sheets and chemical compositions of products when debating pros and cons. (Example being how one type of silicone contains more X and can stick to aluminum better,however lacks in Y and is less heat resistant) Without these details, it's tough to say if anything is being risked.

 

Would you have a part number for the stuff, as I'd love to look into why it may actually be superior and what,if anything, is in it that justifies the price. If its superior, I'll def make the switch myself.

 

I use the term "risking it" not in that I don't think usual stuff will work just fine more in that using the factory recommended stuff is safer as its an engine out strip down affair if it (or I) fail.

I've used a Loctite one before that I didn't notice was slightly after its use by date, won't make that mistake again.

 

As for the trans pan if using a gasket (not cork or rubber) I use only a very thin smear to hold it in place rather than sealing it, otherwise as said throw the gasket and just use the sealant but be careful not to use too much you don't want it squeezing out inside the trans.

With the Soarer (sc400) make sure the leak isn't from the dipstick tube which may have been tweaked when removing the pan in the first place. It is the most common place I see them leaking.

[TexasQuest]

I used sealant just to hold the gasket in placed when I re-installed the oil pan with a new gasket. No point in (doubling) the gasket with sealant & a gasket. That is how leaks can happen.