Headers for Starquests, anyone interested?

[Starfighterpilot]

What tubing schedule do you plan on using for the tubing? It had better be pretty heavy to support the weight of the turbo/waste gate/exhaust piping, even with a support bracket.

 

Where on the G54B engine block would you mount the exhaust header support bracket that you mentioned above?

 

Whatever metal you use for the tubing has to also be used for the flanges. If you don't, dissimilar metals have different coefficients of expansion/contraction (or expand and contract from heat/or lack of at different rates), which also definitely leads to weld cracking.

 

I had Hooker exhaust headers on my Dodge truck and Charger for about 10 years. About once per 15K miles I would have to pull them and have the welds at the tubing to head flange joints rewelded because of cracking. The welds were performed by AWS certified piping welders who knew what they were doing for tubing/pipe weld joint preparation and welding, (a case of beer does wonders).

 

They still cracked, and those header welds were only supporting the header weight. Plus, I had flex hangers installed on the exhaust piping to keep from stressing the header tubing joints due to the engine slightly shifting from torque when I really laid into her.

 

Like I said, the tubing to flange welds cracked no matter what we did. I don't think that the collector welds ever cracked tho, but they were not supporting anything and ran at cooler temps than at the header to head flange.

 

However, Starquest's even have a problem cracking the cast iron exhaust manifolds unless the manifold to head flange is stress relieved by cutting the flange webbing between the cylinders.

 

But as I have said many times before, opinions are like aholes. Everyone has one.

 

If you get a 1 year warranty from the manufacturer, I believe, about 6 mos.to a year later (at the most) after the warranty expires you will be pulling 'em to get the cracked welds rewelded.

 

But, maybe header metalurgy/technology has advanced to the point were weld cracking is eliminated. But I'll believe when I see it. Especially on the turbo'd Starquests.

 

So:

 

1) What tubing schedule do you plan on using?

 

2) Are the mounting flanges to be the same metal as the tubes?

 

3) Will the header to head mounting flange also be cut between the cylinders to preclude cracking?

 

4) What are you going to mount the exhaust header/turbo/waste gate support bracket(s) to, on the passenger side of the G54B block?

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

Edited March 13, 2009 by Starfighterpilot

[StarquestRescue]

Lets think out side the box. Why not approach http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/produ...mp;phot_key=685 , and ask them to design a cast iron manifold that looks more like a header and less like a log. Something more like this. There sq log manifolds are currently out of stock so this could be a perfect time to say "we have 25 guys x $400 that want something better". Cast iron headers can be made and the last would be the same dimensions as the first, so when it does wear out you can order a new one and if will fit perfect. From what i have read and seen tubular headers/manifolds will crack sooner than later, and if they are hand made no two will be alike.

 

http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/~treadstone/prod_imgs/img-196-0-large.jpg

 

I am not saying the flange should be one place or another, just that it should look more like a header and less like a log.

 

 

Edited March 14, 2009 by StarquestRescue

[ucw458]

If they ceramic coat them, see about getting them coated inside, if you only coat the outside, the steel will get "cooked" because the coating does a very good job of holding in heat. If they are coated outside only, the steel will get super hot and stay super hot. If they are coated inside too, that coating keeps the heat way from the steel in the first place. Steel (and stainless) is only about 20% as strong at temps above 900* vs room temp, so it easily cracks if it's kept too hot.

 

Coating also adds power in a turbo aplication, it delivers more heat to the turbine wheel where the power transfer occurs, so it's a good choice on any design if the cost isn't excessive.

 

 

I've done a fair amount of metal fabrication. Everything from ironwork for buildings to forging my own castings. If you've ever been around a melting furnace even a small one they are HOT. I even worked in an exhaust shop for awhile. I've seen firsthand what ceramic coating on the outside does. Even in NA applications headers get destroyed when only coated on the outside.I've spoken to my Rep and he says the steel ones will be ceramic coated inside and out.

 

 

This company claims in turbo applications there is minimal difference between a tubular log header and an equal length tubular header. They have done dyno runs and showed very minimal increase in performance. I'm not an expert so I am following their advice. The stock style header for mitsu turbos will be a tubular log style. I can make the T3/T4 header the same way unless I have a high demand for an equal length design. Keep in mind a tubular design will work well and add HP but will still be inexpensive.

 

A full factory warranty will be given to every header.

 

They have a dyno in their shop so they will be dynoing my car with the prototype header. I will have before and after HP charts. Keep in mind aside from a TEP OVC and a full HKS exhaust with no cats I have a virtually stock motor with a near death 12A.

[ucw458]

What tubing schedule do you plan on using for the tubing? It had better be pretty heavy to support the weight of the turbo/waste gate/exhaust piping, even with a support bracket.

 

Where on the G54B engine block would you mount the exhaust header support bracket that you mentioned above?

 

Whatever metal you use for the tubing has to also be used for the flanges. If you don't, dissimilar metals have different coefficients of expansion/contraction (or expand and contract from heat/or lack of at different rates), which also definitely leads to weld cracking.

 

I had Hooker exhaust headers on my Dodge truck and Charger for about 10 years. About once per 15K miles I would have to pull them and have the welds at the tubing to head flange joints rewelded because of cracking. The welds were performed by AWS certified piping welders who knew what they were doing for tubing/pipe weld joint preparation and welding, (a case of beer does wonders).

 

They still cracked, and those header welds were only supporting the header weight. Plus, I had flex hangers installed on the exhaust piping to keep from stressing the header tubing joints due to the engine slightly shifting from torque when I really laid into her.

 

Like I said, the tubing to flange welds cracked no matter what we did. I don't think that the collector welds ever cracked tho, but they were not supporting anything and ran at cooler temps than at the header to head flange.

 

However, Starquest's even have a problem cracking the cast iron exhaust manifolds unless the manifold to head flange is stress relieved by cutting the flange webbing between the cylinders.

 

But as I have said many times before, opinions are like aholes. Everyone has one.

 

If you get a 1 year warranty from the manufacturer, I believe, about 6 mos.to a year later (at the most) after the warranty expires you will be pulling 'em to get the cracked welds rewelded.

 

But, maybe header metalurgy/technology has advanced to the point were weld cracking is eliminated. But I'll believe when I see it. Especially on the turbo'd Starquests.

 

So:

 

1) What tubing schedule do you plan on using?

 

2) Are the mounting flanges to be the same metal as the tubes?

 

3) Will the header to head mounting flange also be cut between the cylinders to preclude cracking?

 

4) What are you going to mount the exhaust header/turbo/waste gate support bracket(s) to, on the passenger side of the G54B block?

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

 

I have full length hooker headers on my V8 car as well. We both know a V* even with new motor mounts twists in the engine bay more than a 2.6 The full length V8 headers have to cope with more twisting due to their design. I've installed many sets of hooker headers while working in an exhaust shop. I can say from experience they aren't the highest quality product on the market. Almost every brand new in the box hooker header I had to surface the head flange because it wasn't flat. And on quite a few new in the box units had pinhole leaks I had to weld.

 

Just so everyone knows, the company I have chosen to do these headers has a LIFETIME warranty. If it ever cracks it will be replaced.

 

The header will be made from steel and ceramic coated inside and out. Braces will most likely run down to the top bolt on the motor mount(block side).

 

 

 

 

As for starquestrescues post the manifold he posted is similar in design to the header I'm trying to produce.

Edited March 14, 2009 by ucw458

[Caliber308]

As long as the quality is good, and price is reasonable along with some testing of the finished product. Sounds good !!! And a lifetime guarantee to boot :thumbsup:

 

CALIBER 308

Edited March 14, 2009 by Caliber308

[redzone]

i use 3.2 wall thickness steel steampipe bends on manifolds i make and i've never had one crack. its the shizzle.

[Dcrasta]

i use 3.2 wall thickness steel steampipe bends on manifolds i make and i've never had one crack. its the shizzle.

 

PICS or /BAN!

 

 

I like the cast header idea (ala Trendstone style) . I also think a divided T4 flange would be awesome, could use a bigger A/R turbine and still get early spool.

 

[Funky Phil]

I want a header just like this!!!

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10142/077.jpg

[Starfighterpilot]

I've done a fair amount of metal fabrication. Everything from ironwork for buildings to forging my own castings.

 

This company claims in turbo applications there is minimal difference between a tubular log header and an equal length tubular header. They have done dyno runs and showed very minimal increase in performance. I'm not an expert so I am following their advice. The stock style header for mitsu turbos will be a tubular log style. I can make the T3/T4 header the same way unless I have a high demand for an equal length design. Keep in mind a tubular design will work well and add HP but will still be inexpensive.

 

They have a dyno in their shop so they will be dynoing my car with the prototype header. I will have before and after HP charts. Keep in mind aside from a TEP OVC and a full HKS exhaust with no cats I have a virtually stock motor with a near death 12A.

 

Based upon the above, I have a couple of questions:

 

1) You state: "I've done a fair amount of metal fabrication. Everything from ironwork for buildings to forging my own castings."

 

How do you FORGE a casting? :confused0024:

 

2) Is it possible to post the print outs of the company's dyno runs (for what ever car they used) which documents the "minimal difference," I'm assuming in torque and horse power, between the tubular log header and the equal lenght tubular header?

 

After all, if a Starquester was going to lay out a substantial amount of money for these headers, they would want to ensure that they got the MOST punch for their buck, NOT taking some company's or sales reps word that there are "minimal differences," and they/you will make the best choice, <_ before a commitment to buy or any money changed hands. especially in todays economy. :winking0013:>

 

3) You live in California and the area that you live in has some of the strictest smog requirements in the state, if not in the world. How are you getting your Starquest smogged and licensed without cats? :confused0024:

 

4) In order for the results of the before and after dyno runs on your Starquest to be valid and show a GOOD representation of what kind of total horsepower/torque that a Starquester could expect at given RPM's/boost pressure, I would think that a FULLY functional 12A turbo would HAVE to be used RATHER THAN a "near death 12A." :confused0024: And the engine tuned/tweaked to within a knat's a$$ of perfect.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

PS - What is the name of this header company?

Edited March 14, 2009 by Starfighterpilot

[StarquestRescue]

4) In order for the results of the before and after dyno runs on your Starquest to be valid and show a GOOD representation of what kind of total horsepower/torque that a Starquester could expect at given RPM's/boost pressure, I would think that a FULLY functional 12A turbo would HAVE to be used RATHER THAN a "near death 12A." :confused0024: And the engine tuned/tweaked to within a knat's a$$ of perfect.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

If i may expand on that. IMHO i would like to suggest that the testing also be done on one of the popular bolt on mitsu o5h turbos like a 14g,16g or 17c operating in the heart of it's efficiency range.

 

If nothing else comes out of this the testing could be en lightning.

 

[Starfighterpilot]

I have full length hooker headers on my V8 car as well. We both know a V* even with new motor mounts twists in the engine bay more than a 2.6 The full length V8 headers have to cope with more twisting due to their design. I've installed many sets of hooker headers while working in an exhaust shop. I can say from experience they aren't the highest quality product on the market. Almost every brand new in the box hooker header I had to surface the head flange because it wasn't flat. And on quite a few new in the box units had pinhole leaks I had to weld.

 

Just so everyone knows, the company I have chosen to do these headers has a LIFETIME warranty. If it ever cracks it will be replaced.

 

The header will be made from steel and ceramic coated inside and out. Braces will most likely run down to the top bolt on the motor mount(block side).

 

 

 

 

As for starquestrescues post the manifold he posted is similar in design to the header I'm trying to produce.

 

 

"We both know a V* even with new motor mounts twists in the engine bay more than a 2.6 The full length V8 headers have to cope with more twisting due to their design."

 

I strongly disagree. It depends on the condition and design of the "motor mounts" and how the exhaust piping downstream of the header collector is hung under the vehicle's body. Like I said in my original post, I used flexible exhaust piping mounts.

 

"I've installed many sets of hooker headers while working in an exhaust shop. I can say from experience they aren't the highest quality product on the market. Almost every brand new in the box hooker header I had to surface the head flange because it wasn't flat. And on quite a few new in the box units had pinhole leaks I had to weld."

 

HHMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!! All I can say is that they were the exhaust header recommended by MOPAR's Direct Connection. When we were using them, their welds were Class A and the flange surface was dead on flat. Why didn't you or your shop call and complain to Hooker Header, send them back and demand expedited replacement, RATHER than welding on them and VOIDING the customers warrantee?

 

"I have full length hooker headers on my V8 car as well."

 

If they are such poor quality, as you claim, why did you install them on your own "V8 car"?

 

As for starquestrescues post the manifold he posted is similar in design to the header I'm trying to produce.

 

http://www.treadstoneperformance.com/~trea...196-0-large.jpg

 

So it is essentially the SAME EXHAUST CONFIGURATION DESIGN as the stock MITSU OEM exhaust manifold, the only exception is it's made of steel tubing vice a metal casting? <_ i do not see any substantial potential gains in that design over the oem especially for money. because nos. exhaust runners are still short as compared to although more radiused and collector is different. but guess we will have dyno results.>

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

PS - As I asked in the previous post that I posted this AM, What is the name of this exhaust header company that you are working with? And please answer all of the questions that I raised in that post as well.

Edited March 14, 2009 by Starfighterpilot

[marso]

I want a header just like this!!!

http://www.26liter.us/gallery/albums/userpics/10142/077.jpg

 

A guy in Orlando had one like that. A bit of lag due to the long runners.

Edited March 14, 2009 by marso

[marso]

Off topic but you have inconel in your car. It's in the turbo. Turbine blades and seals. It's used in nuclear reactors too. Look it up. It gets harder as you work on it. A standard drill bit will not cut through it.

 

 

The six lower struts that hold the Solid Rocket Boosters to the External Tank on the Shuttle are Inconel. Heavy duty and light. No one would want to pay four digits for a manifold if not more.

[Chad]

Inconel is very strong, so it's often used in smaller quantities resulting in a part that is light relative to stength. It is however a very heavy metal, comprised moslty of Nickel and Chromium. It's noticably heavier than steel. It's probably the strongest metal you can find in common use and readily available.

 

Titanium is the metal that is light >and

 

Yes, there is a benifit to using inconel as it is the best material for the job, but it's not going to sell if you make them of inconel.

 

Lots of comprimises in making something like this. This is what I've had to do with mine too, make cost vs. performance decisions. I've had lots of poeple say that they are too expensive and those people will often buy a cheaper options. Most all of those cheaper options have all been proven to not last long, which costs more in the long run. Doesn't mean I'm going to change my design to sell more product, it's not worth it in the long run.

 

My point is, don't force this new product to be made the cheapest way possible, it's not worth it. Cost should not be the primary focus here.

 

To quote another members signature line : "If you can't afford to do it right the first time, you deffinalty can't afford to do it twice."

[ucw458]

Based upon the above, I have a couple of questions:

 

1) You state: "I've done a fair amount of metal fabrication. Everything from ironwork for buildings to forging my own castings."

How do you FORGE a casting? :confused0024:

 

Direct from a dictionary "to form or make, esp. by concentrated effort"

 

2) Is it possible to post the print outs of the company's dyno runs (for what ever car they used) which documents the "minimal difference," I'm assuming in torque and horse power, between the tubular log header and the equal lenght tubular header?

 

After all, if a Starquester was going to lay out a substantial amount of money for these headers, they would want to ensure that they got the MOST punch for their buck, NOT taking some company's or sales reps word that there are "minimal differences," and they/you will make the best choice, <_ before a commitment to buy or any money changed hands. especially in todays economy.>

 

I was told this by several company employees, not just a sales rep. Dyno techs, lead fabricator, design engineer, etc.

 

3) You live in California and the area that you live in has some of the strictest smog requirements in the state, if not in the world. How are you getting your Starquest smogged and licensed without cats?

 

I plead the 5th on that one.

 

4) In order for the results of the before and after dyno runs on your Starquest to be valid and show a GOOD representation of what kind of total horsepower/torque that a Starquester could expect at given RPM's/boost pressure, I would think that a FULLY functional 12A turbo would HAVE to be used RATHER THAN a "near death 12A." :confused0024: And the engine tuned/tweaked to within a knat's a$$ of perfect.

 

Car runs perfect and turbo boosts fine to stock boost. Bearings are bad in the turbo. It has side play and thrust play. I am working on getting another turbo. I will not do dyno runs with anything bigger than a 12a. My car is not set up yet for more boost.

 

 

 

 

"We both know a V8 even with new motor mounts twists in the engine bay more than a 2.6 The full length V8 headers have to cope with more twisting due to their design."

 

I strongly disagree. It depends on the condition and design of the "motor mounts" and how the exhaust piping downstream of the header collector is hung under the vehicle's body. Like I said in my original post, I used flexible exhaust piping mounts.

 

You can disagree all you want. You are talking about a radically different header with no support brackets.

 

"I've installed many sets of hooker headers while working in an exhaust shop. I can say from experience they aren't the highest quality product on the market. Almost every brand new in the box hooker header I had to surface the head flange because it wasn't flat. And on quite a few new in the box units had pinhole leaks I had to weld."

 

HHMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!! All I can say is that they were the exhaust header recommended by MOPAR's Direct Connection. When we were using them, their welds were Class A and the flange surface was dead on flat. Why didn't you or your shop call and complain to Hooker Header, send them back and demand expedited replacement, RATHER than welding on them and VOIDING the customers warrantee?

 

You weren't there, you didn't work there. All repair work was done with customer authorization. This is off topic.

 

"I have full length hooker headers on my V8 car as well."

 

If they are such poor quality, as you claim, why did you install them on your own "V8 car"?

 

At the time no one else made a header for my car. The choice was hooker headers or stock.

 

So it is essentially the SAME EXHAUST CONFIGURATION DESIGN as the stock MITSU OEM exhaust manifold, the only exception is it's made of steel tubing vice a metal casting? <_ i do not see any substantial potential gains in that design over the oem especially for money. because nos. exhaust runners are still short as compared to although more radiused and collector is different. but guess we will have dyno results.>

 

The head and turbo flanges will be in the stock location. Runners will be custom and non stock design.

 

PS - As I asked in the previous post that I posted this AM, What is the name of this exhaust header company that you are working with?

 

I will not divulge the company name. I have been asked not to. They don't need calls from everyone on here asking about it and making suggestions. I am the only person they want to deal with.

 

 

 

 

 

 

My point is, don't force this new product to be made the cheapest way possible, it's not worth it. Cost should not be the primary focus here.

 

 

Cost is not the only issue here but is a big factor. If the header cost $800 very few people will buy it. I am trying to produce the best design within a target Retail price. This will NOT be a cheap China garbage header. I will be running the exact same header on my car that will be sold here. I want a good product. I am designing this for my car and allowing others to join in and get a low cost quality header. I want it to perform and last on my car. I am not going to keep my car stock. In the future I plan to shoot for a HP record in my car. I cannot do that with a garbage header. I want to make a quality product for an affordable price. And since this company has a lifetime warranty there's very little risk. They make top quality products. I trust them to do the job right and stand by their product.

[Homeless2BNY]

 

JUST WANTED TO SAY THAT IT GREAT SO MANY PPL ARE GETTING crap DONE WITH HAVEING NEW PARTS MADE, RATHER THAN JUST TALKING ABOUT IT.

THATS AWESOME!!!

I'M DOWN TO BUY A SET.

[SOTTY]

X2,good luck,its doable,put me down for one when it happens. :thumbsup:

[BrazilBoy]

Yea Jeff's the man...He has connections out in Cali..I know that before any of us get one on our cars he would have tested and retested the thing, just how Jeff is. I think no one hear will be disappointed..

[psu_Crash]

Setup for an External Wastegate ?

If so i am interested

[BC_99]

Im in for one in the mitsu type turbo application. As for Inconel...cool idea..we run inconel headers on the race team I work for and the are nice but very expensive. As long as the company does all that jeff states they will...lifetime warranty and all... Count me in! attaboy jeff! sent you a pm.

 

BC_99

[ucw458]

Yea Jeff's the man...He has connections out in Cali..I know that before any of us get one on our cars he would have tested and retested the thing, just how Jeff is. I think no one hear will be disappointed..

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence. The design will be tested before the finished product gets shipped out. I have been told once the order is placed it will take 4-6 weeks to finish production. May seem like a long time but that's the way it goes when you order custom products.

 

On a side note the prototype will end up being tested on my car for at least a month before the finished product is ready to ship out so any design flaws should be corrected before the final product is shipped. I'm going to put the prototype to the test and run it hard to make sure it doesn't break.

[Dcrasta]

how about the mitsu evo flange so we can use those nice 20 g evo iii turbos I keep seeing everywhere.

 

[ucw458]

I have a meeting with the sales and production team tommorrow so we will hopefully work out a deal on production and prototyping. I should have some new details to post tommorrow including a retail price.

 

 

On a side note Thanks to a few friends of mine there is now a freshly rebuilt 12a installed on my car. Here are a few videos of the test car in action. Keep in mind it is mostly stock so it's a little slow. Films were shot on nearly deserted streets. All precautions were taken to make sure I wasn't endangering anyone.

 

Idling and reving

 

Test run

[BrazilBoy]

Jeff glad you got that turbo redone...Let me how things turn out...latez Roberto

[Shelby]

you need to find a quiet country road for filming, will help sound a bunch,, and speaking of sound i sure miss the old real to real recorders , hard to beat for true sound