Serious bible question

[BOHO]

Well, they say it takes more 'faith' to believe there is NO God, then there is to have 'faith' in believing there IS a God.

 

Sorry, would have responded sooner, but had to tuck my girls in and pray with them

 

Good questions though and im glad there is intelligent conversations..

 

Who is "they"? This point makes zero sense.....

[john82wa]

It's something ive heard at a few churches and if you ever get the chance to watch Loui Giglio's 'How great is our God' it addresses several issues and uses science as its foundation, not faith. There is an overwelming amount of information in support of God being real and again, it uses science to back this up and once the facts are brought to attention, it makes it difficult to still believe there is no God. Look at Darwin Edited March 25, 2012 by john25wa

[ucw458]

i guess you are educating the forum? well you aint saying nothing. How is it the bible still prevails to this day then? even with all the suppressing.

 

I must be saying alot then.

 

The truth was suppressed, not the bible. It was written in latin so only priests could interpret it for the common man. That way the common man couldn't read it and make up their own mind. This put priests in a position of power. Once the clergy get their power they never give it up. In this way priests could tell you what was gods will. Even if it was for their own gain.

[lionbull]

 

I must be saying alot then.

 

The truth was suppressed, not the bible. It was written in latin so only priests could interpret it for the common man. That way the common man couldn't read it and make up their own mind. This put priests in a position of power. Once the clergy get their power they never give it up. In this way priests could tell you what was gods will. Even if it was for their own gain.

 

 

i hope you know i can't speak for "religion" but I don't deny what you say either. Men did what they did but we are free to study the translted version despite the suppression. I am curious about the truth you speak of please share...

Edited March 25, 2012 by lionbull

[chiplee]

 

How is it the bible still prevails to this day then? even with all the suppressing.

 

I wouldn't open that can of worms. If popularity is to be considered evidence of an idea's merit, we have some serious issues on our hands. There are a few extremely popular ideas out there that Christians regard as utter nonsense. Take "Islam" for starters. If you were to doubt the validity of the words in the Koran, someone could just as easily ask you, "How is it that the Koran still prevails to this day then?"

 

Even with all the "suppressing", ideas spread and linger for well understood reasons. If we're going to be sincere about the quality of our ideas, we first have to take measures to remove our bias from our consideration of them. This is extremely difficult.

Edited March 25, 2012 by chiplee

[chiplee]

 

Who is "they"? This point makes zero sense.....

 

Not really. It's actually true that it takes at least an "equal" amount of faith to believe in God as it does to believe there is no god. Neither stance is well supported by evidence, though one side may be better supported by reason, but only slightly. The problem is in what it presumes when we say, "it takes more faith to believe there is no god". It presumes that anyone actually believes that. In reality, not believing there is a god, does not equal believing there is no god. And it takes zero faith to "not believe" there is a god. We don't have adequate information to take a stance on the matter either way, so the best any of us can do is to admit that fact, and wait for better information to become available. Atheists who say they believe there is no god are just being sloppy, either with words or thoughts or both. Atheism is very simple, it's just an admission of ignorance about the origin of the Universe. Believers are also ignorant about the origin of the Universe, but they choose to have faith that their God created it. There's really nothing to be upset about on the subject, but we fail to advance the conversation beyond an initial misunderstanding of one another's stances. Creationists misunderstand atheists and think they believe there is no God, while Atheists misunderstand creationists and think they contend that they "know" the origin of the Universe. People on both sides should consider what they may have done or said that might have caused the other side to misunderstand and start by not doing that anymore.

Edited March 25, 2012 by chiplee

[chiplee]

It's something ive heard at a few churches and if you ever get the chance to watch Loui Giglio's 'How great is our God' it addresses several issues and uses science as its foundation, not faith. There is an overwelming amount of information in support of God being real and again, it uses science to back this up and once the facts are brought to attention, it makes it difficult to still believe there is no God. Look at Darwin

 

What do you mean, "Look at Darwin"?

[87quest_stv]

This topic a very good question. And very reasonable to ask as well. When I started studying the bible for myself I found myself asking the same kind of questions questions.And Also had a lot of doubts. Here's what I think. If you believe int he bible, and believe that there is 1 God who created everything we know. Then it kind of makes sense. God created eveything. He created us in the image of himself. We were the first to be created, When I say we, I mean mammals, He wanted us to be happy so he created the animals, bird, fish etc. He was pleased with us and everything he created. It says somewhere in the bible that satan's sole purpose is to steal, kill and destroy. Satan doesn't do this for the most part by his own hands, his main way is to influence man by highlighting earthly desires. For instance the attractiveness of getting high. Then whispering in your ear. It won't hurt to do it again. and again, and again,. until now you need something stronger, so you graduate to more severe drugs, until finally you lose your life to an overdose. This is just one way. Or perhaps the mother that takes her children upstairs to bath and drowns them all saying God told her to do it. Listen. that wasn't God. That was Satan. Or satan's minions. Satan works through the things of this world to kill steal and destroy. He wants everyone to disobey God and what's right and moral so when Armageddon comes he has as many servants and damned to fight along side him again God.

 

Here's another thought. God made us in his image. Prior to adam and eve's sin, he use to walk and talk with them in person and there was a 1 on 1 relationship that he had with them. After their sin, because God is perfect he couldn't any longer, walk and talk in person with his creation. God had given the ability for man and woman to procreate, thus further populating the world.. Now the next part that I'm going to tell you is about Greek mythology. I don't think it's mythology at all. I believe it's real up to the immortal man part. It briefly explains about this time in Genesis chapter 6. Prior to this chapter in chapter 5 it talks about the heritage of Noah back to Adam. This is important because in chapter six it talks about nephilim or "giants" Some biblical scholars suggest nephilim were the dinosaurs but the Hebrew translation for nephilim means giants. This could be the titans or very large humans 40 feet tall as explained in Greek mythology. I believe nephilim were the offspring of the Angels and "daughters of man" Genesis Chapter 6 verse 2 says " and the sons of God" (angels) saw that the daughters of man were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose" Now I believe these angels that were fornicating with the daughters of men were fallen angels. They chose to give up the kingdom of heaven for the lustfulness of the earthly women. However these angels were still divine and their offspring were considered the heroes of old, men of renown" as it says in Genesis chapter 6 verse 4. This was Satan's second attempt to derail God's creation. The first being tempting Eve to sin in turn which Adam sinned.

 

Now earlier I spoke about Genesis Chapter 5 describing the blood line of Noah back to Adam. This is important in why God Chose Noah to be saved in building the ark. Because His blood line was pure and unadulterated by this intermingling of angels and women of earth. which was an abomination in God's eyes. So after wiping the earth clean through the flood. Noah and his family begin repopulating the world. This brings us to the story of Abraham, Considered to be the Father of the Israelites. God made a pact that he would bless all of his descendants which would be as many as each grain is a vast fields. He loved Abraham and loved his descendants. And was very angered when his creation chose to again follow the desires of earth and Satan instead of following him. So yes there were many people that were swallowed up in the pits because these people chose to follow Satan instead of God. The old testament is basically a covenant between God and Abraham. God new that this covenant needed to be redone because the law of Moses would be perverted again by man giving into the temptation of Satan, by which manner man started making decrees and their own laws over the original law. This is were Christ comes in. God wanted to atone for everyone's sin. past present and future as long as you accept and live your life the way Christ wanted you to live. This is why the explanation of Christs crucifixion was so detailed. The way he was beaten, spit on, jeered at, had stones thrown at him, nails driven through his hands and feet, a spear driven into his heart, He new this was his end. This was why he was put here on earth. His life was perfect. He was tempted by Satan in the 40 days of fasting in the wilderness but didn't give in. He was the perfect lamb being led to slaughter. This was God's Son whom he gave to us because he loved us so much he knew this was the only way to save us from his true and righteous judgement. Jesus's only commandment to us was to love one another as he loved us. and even after being beaten, and ridiculed and tortured so severely. His last words were "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do" That's really powerful.. Of course if you don't believe in the bible then there's no sense in believing anything it says. But I hope I was able to kind of make sense for your what's hard to understand. You really have to read the entire story from beginning to ending. because it's all tied in together. There was a plan from the beginning. And that plan is still in progress today.

Edited March 25, 2012 by 87quest_stv

[john82wa]

I probably shouldn't have brought up Darwin because that piece is to controversial. But I did because he was someone who believed then didn't believe and then believed again years after his theory on natural selection. But this is all very controversial....just look up Darwin and his beliefs and you will see information pointing to both sides.

[lionbull]

 

I wouldn't open that can of worms. If popularity is to be considered evidence of an idea's merit, we have some serious issues on our hands. There are a few extremely popular ideas out there that Christians regard as utter nonsense. Take "Islam" for starters. If you were to doubt the validity of the words in the Koran, someone could just as easily ask you, "How is it that the Koran still prevails to this day then?"

 

Even with all the "suppressing", ideas spread and linger for well understood reasons. If we're going to be sincere about the quality of our ideas, we first have to take measures to remove our bias from our consideration of them. This is extremely difficult.

 

no i never said by popularity mind you though it is the most popular book ever. i will say relevant. how relevant? i can talk to you till you are blue in the face and it will not matter so it may be something to find out for yourself. Just about any real life issue and the bible has something to say about it.

[chiplee]

I probably shouldn't have brought up Darwin because that piece is to controversial. But I did because he was someone who believed then didn't believe and then believed again years after his theory on natural selection. But this is all very controversial....just look up Darwin and his beliefs and you will see information pointing to both sides.

 

Darwin is not a controversial subject to me. I was just concerned that you might be referring to one of the many Darwin quotes creationists tend to take out of context to suggest he thought evolution was proof of god's existence.

[john82wa]

Darwin is not a controversial subject to me. I was just concerned that you might be referring to one of the many Darwin quotes creationists tend to take out of context to suggest he thought evolution was proof of god's existence.

 

Thats what I mean, you can take out one quote from his life and put a spin on it to support my beliefs and take yet another quote from him contradicting the very thing he said....lol, it was really a poor example but intriguing nonetheless.

[chiplee]

 

 

Thats what I mean, you can take out one quote from his life and put a spin on it to support my beliefs and take yet another quote from him contradicting the very thing he said....lol, it was really a poor example but intriguing nonetheless.

 

Well, you can make it look like he supported your beliefs if you quote mine and take him out of context. That doesnt exactly mean you can find him contradicting himself.

[Metric-man]

The idea of faith to me seems allot like hope or a wish for something to be true

If you have experienced something a basic example being the sun rising in the morning..

you have faith it will rise again the next day..

 

but what about the things you have never experienced like for example life after death?

Maybe you were sick or had a dream or were injured an your heart stopped beating..

you looked at yourself from outside your own body.. then you might believe it is real,

what other assurance do you have that make you want to believe? or makes you to desire faith?

 

My idea of God is something personal and without religion.

I believe completely in this concept God without religion, because I see others that believe in religion without God.

 

Then there is the concept of faith without works (or without effort)

if you do not take the idea of faith to heart and act or use it in your belief then what good is it?

Many may believe they have faith but when it comes down to using it,

some find they have doubt instead.

 

I don't see why some of you don't observe vanity in your statements

or that possibly there is a mixed messages and truer meanings were preserved in old stories and translated texts.

 

To take the word of someone without proof of their word to begin with is just a fantasy, you wouldn’t take just the word of someone to borrow your car for example if you didn't know them why would you trust someone with your life?

 

The message I'm trying to convey here is not to place your faith in other people

that includes those that provide the written word, don't even trust me explicitly

and anyone that does or orders or demand you to is certainly a warning sign.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Metric-man

[chiplee]

 

 

no i never said by popularity mind you though it is the most popular book ever. i will say relevant. how relevant? i can talk to you till you are blue in the face and it will not matter so it may be something to find out for yourself. Just about any real life issue and the bible has something to say about it.

 

And that exact argument could be used in favor of ANY religion as well. My point remains the same.

[BOHO]

 

Not really. It's actually true that it takes at least an "equal" amount of faith to believe in God as it does to believe there is no god. Neither stance is well supported by evidence, though one side may be better supported by reason, but only slightly. The problem is in what it presumes when we say, "it takes more faith to believe there is no god". It presumes that anyone actually believes that. In reality, not believing there is a god, does not equal believing there is no god. And it takes zero faith to "not believe" there is a god. We don't have adequate information to take a stance on the matter either way, so the best any of us can do is to admit that fact, and wait for better information to become available. Atheists who say they believe there is no god are just being sloppy, either with words or thoughts or both. Atheism is very simple, it's just an admission of ignorance about the origin of the Universe. Believers are also ignorant about the origin of the Universe, but they choose to have faith that their God created it. There's really nothing to be upset about on the subject, but we fail to advance the conversation beyond an initial misunderstanding of one another's stances. Creationists misunderstand atheists and think they believe there is no God, while Atheists misunderstand creationists and think they contend that they "know" the origin of the Universe. People on both sides should consider what they may have done or said that might have caused the other side to misunderstand and start by not doing that anymore.

 

Chip,

 

I do agree that as a whole...both sides misunderstand one another. Based on personal experience (on a small scale) it just turns into the same I'm right and you're wrong scenario everytime. When I think of faith I would be lying if I didn't think it applied to how I felt about this world. But the simple act of faith does not mean you have "faith" in my opinion. Faith that the sun will rise, my starion will run, mankind will destroy itself,....

 

If two people were placed somewhere far apart with no human contact....They had no memory of civilization...they were just a conscience human being...one with a bible and one without. What decisions/implications do you think they would make about life as they knew it. Is it our nature to "believe" simply because something says so?

[lmwii]

if we suppose there is such a thing as an omnipotent being, then the only way to trust anything we see or hear is through faith. if jesus showed up with all the angels and all the jesus trappings, there is no empirical way to tell if he is the 'real' jesus or simply hermes having a laugh. the bible could be a complex practical joke played by loki. an omnipotent being could coerce your belief, could compel your faith, and you'd never know it. reality as we experience it could, in the hands of an omnipotent being, be a fabrication as fresh as yesterday, foisted on us for ba'al's amusement. following this path of reality through faith leads to the basest solipsism, which is why i'll stick with empirical evidence, and put my faith in the minimum of possible vessels: my own observations and the provable observations of people who know what they are doing.

[chiplee]

if we suppose there is such a thing as an omnipotent being, then the only way to trust anything we see or hear is through faith. if jesus showed up with all the angels and all the jesus trappings, there is no empirical way to tell if he is the 'real' jesus or simply hermes having a laugh. the bible could be a complex practical joke played by loki. an omnipotent being could coerce your belief, could compel your faith, and you'd never know it. reality as we experience it could, in the hands of an omnipotent being, be a fabrication as fresh as yesterday, foisted on us for ba'al's amusement. following this path of reality through faith leads to the basest solipsism, which is why i'll stick with empirical evidence, and put my faith in the minimum of possible vessels: my own observations and the provable observations of people who know what they are doing.

 

Pure genius.

[DieHARDmitsu.]

We can only see up to a certain spectrum, hear up to a certain frequency, limited smell, feel only so much, and taste also has limitations. We use about 10%-12 of our brain, if that much in a life time. Yet, some believe that we are the most enlightened beings on Earth or for that matter the Universe. I think this is where we go wrong. The Ego blinds us. If we rely on the sense to guide us then we are at a lost. Animals exceed us in sense perceptions. Our observations partly rely on the weak senses which make them somewhat inconclusive.

 

Almost everything humans have created to this day required some sort of intelligence or logic; even, the cave man grinding his jagged stone to make a wheel or man's most advance creations requires math, science, logic...intelligence. When we look at nature, the life cycles and the universe, from the little we seem to know so far, all is well engineered, balanced and follows certain order. Perhaps, the presence of a higher intelligence or force behind it all; one of which the 5 limited senses and the feeble human brain has trouble comprehending.

 

If modern day man was to used his advanced atomic weapons to destroy all that is naturally present on Earth, the aftermath will still result in a condition where the remains will continually follow the order of creation. Surely, energy is never lost. The energy of creation is still in motion even when destruction is taking place. The creative force or energy is never ending; it must be driven by an intelligence, perhaps, higher than our senses can perceive.

 

The size and capacity of the human civilization on earth is nothing in comparison the all that is present in the known and unknown Universe. I don't think we are capable of comprehending all that there is, due to our limitations.

 

Faith, not linking to any religion, keeps the mind open and seems to bring about a higher understanding than where the senses leave off.

[chiplee]

We can only see up to a certain spectrum, hear up to a certain frequency, limited smell, feel only so much, and taste also has limitations. We use about 10%-12 of our brain, if that much in a life time. Yet, some believe that we are the most enlightened beings on Earth or for that matter the Universe. I think this is where we go wrong. The Ego blinds us. If we rely on the sense to guide us then we are at a lost. Animals exceed us in sense perceptions. Our observations partly rely on the weak senses which make them somewhat inconclusive.

 

You don't have to "believe" humans are the most enlightened beings on earth. You can know it. The most "surprisingly intelligent" animal species on earth is intensely stupid relative to humans.

 

Almost everything humans have created to this day required some sort of intelligence or logic; even, the cave man grinding his jagged stone to make a wheel or man's most advance creations requires math, science, logic...intelligence. When we look at nature, the life cycles and the universe, from the little we seem to know so far, all is well engineered, balanced and follows certain order. Perhaps, the presence of a higher intelligence or force behind it all; one of which the 5 limited senses and the feeble human brain has trouble comprehending.

 

If modern day man was to used his advanced atomic weapons to destroy all that is naturally present on Earth, the aftermath will still result in a condition where the remains will continually follow the order of creation. Surely, energy is never lost. The energy of creation is still in motion even when destruction is taking place. The creative force or energy is never ending; it must be driven by an intelligence, perhaps, higher than our senses can perceive.

 

The size and capacity of the human civilization on earth is nothing in comparison the all that is present in the known and unknown Universe. I don't think we are capable of comprehending all that there is, due to our limitations.

 

Faith, not linking to any religion, keeps the mind open and seems to bring about a higher understanding than where the senses leave off.

 

The rest of this is honestly too mixed up for me to tackle right now. You've proposed a variation of the argument from design, or the teleological argument, and I'm well prepared to rebut that argument, but it's been rebutted for centuries by powerhouse philosophers. Your post suggests that you haven't taken the time to avail yourself of those rebuttals, so I sincerely hope you will read every word at this link. http://www.princeton.edu/~grosen/puc/phi203/design.html

[JohnnyWadd]

People who are christians love to label things as evil and kill people based on that, like "in the name of god" evil things like sex and drugs and rock and roll or skin color you name it if people have a reason to hate you and some more people to band up with then your in trouble.

[JohnnyWadd]

killing isn't the only form of evil.

 

can you kill and still be loving, just, and good? capital punishment comes to mind. So does war. Killing isn't always evil.

 

 

I agree. Some things can be more evil just for the sake of "not killing" People die everyday for chance reasons and acts of nature or god or whatever or just die from doing stupid daredevil stuff but some would say its wrong for example for a father to kill a man who rapes his daughter or wrong for you to shoot an intruder that has a knife to your wifes throat. Who is infuencing who in those situation? Is satan trying to temp yo uto kill the rapist and is god testing your forgiveness of the rapist and thereby the righ tthing to do is let the rapist or murderer main and kill your family and rob your stuff? Are you supposed to sit back and let it happen and call the police and let gods plan work?

 

I think you are wrong to see killing as just evil because it happens all the time. If a person dies because he or she was driving 120 mph drunk and doing cocaine well thats how it goes, But if a person is killed by people who are protecting there lives from a cold blooded killer than the benefits society and benefits your neighbor so i say do it.

 

 

The rest of this is honestly too mixed up for me to tackle right now.

 

Thats what i was thinking. Is the killing gods fault or satans fault? God made satan. But you have to beleive and be well read in the bible to answer, right?

Edited March 25, 2012 by JohnnyWadd

[chiplee]

 

Chip,

 

I do agree that as a whole...both sides misunderstand one another. Based on personal experience (on a small scale) it just turns into the same I'm right and you're wrong scenario everytime. When I think of faith I would be lying if I didn't think it applied to how I felt about this world. But the simple act of faith does not mean you have "faith" in my opinion. Faith that the sun will rise, my starion will run, mankind will destroy itself,....

 

If two people were placed somewhere far apart with no human contact....They had no memory of civilization...they were just a conscience human being...one with a bible and one without. What decisions/implications do you think they would make about life as they knew it. Is it our nature to "believe" simply because something says so?

 

I'm not sure, but I've tried before to explain the nature of proof and knowledge. I think I should probably draw up a graph. I wasn't trying to get at "faith" though. I was getting at the difference between the act of believing there is no god, and the act of not believing in god. They sound similar, I know, but they require infinitely different amounts of "faith". Not believing in god requires no faith. Believing that there definitely is no god requires tremendous faith. The latter is similar to Christianity, so it's the strawman Christian apologists put up when they "argue" against atheism. This allows them to say things like, "it takes just as much faith to be an atheist as it does to be a Christian." The truth is that atheists simply "don't believe" in god. Not believing in god does not equal believing god doesn't exist. If Christians would be honest and debate against the actual stance atheists hold, they wouldn't be able to use arguments like that. That was my only point really.

Edited March 25, 2012 by chiplee

[john82wa]

Chip, I guess your just missing the whole point in which several people have pointed out. It's no suprise that non believers have referenced the old testament from the new testament. The old laws to the new. There is also no argument that Christianity has an enormous amount of 'faith' that factors into it. Religion is a terrible word and your beliefs/practices shouldn't be what the world has conformed it to be - it should be about your relationship and yours alone with God. I believe God has many many names. I also believe the different religions have been misconstrued down the years and some are simply not true and this is my conclusion based on my faith in the Holy Bible. It's also amazing that people always use the two people on two remote islands theory with one believing in God and the other never heard of him or his son Jesus Christ. Would the person not exposed to him be 'saved'? Humans were made in the likeness of him and apart of this included worshiping him and this is evident when you look at every single civilization. Find one, just ONE civilization that did not believe in a higher being. We are wired to know that there is something far greater than us. Job 11:7 says 'Can you solve the mysteries of God? Can you discover everything about the Almighty?' The answer is no. We can not and that is why faith plays such a big part. There's always the arguments of carbon dating and ancient artifacts or unknown locations that havn't been found that are referenced in the bible - so how can it be true. Our knowledge is constantly evolving and scientist alike are constantly making discoveries. There was even a science publication recently that showed life surviving in what was thought to be uninhabitable and broke all the rules in which was originally thought to be needed to sustain life. My point is our knowledge is so small and minute to what God has been able to do and for this very reason, one must have faith. I nor anyone else can give you some formula or documentation that is black & white. Arguments can and always will be argued up until the rapture which of course, the rapture, again, is my belief based off the bible. Just know that the proof will never be evident because our minds will never be able to sort out what God has done. Never. There will be more theories im sure, but even the greatest scientist have questions about the mysteries of the world that simply can not be solved by what we know today.

[BOHO]

Meh