Serious bible question

[DieHARDmitsu.]

So in the eyes of an Atheist, marriage is just a piece of paper you sign up with your lady. The feeling you feel for her and your children are just chemicals releasing in your brains Man that just seems cold and selfish form here.

I don't take a liking to any religion nor do I consider myself to be religious but I do feel that there is a creative energy/force that links all things together.

When we lose sight of that and act towards our own selfishness, the world becomes a "horrible" place, people too.

[BOHO]

How does marriage in a church make a marriage any more sacred? I don't need God's approval to love my wife. We have to be married for me to see her in the hospital, health insurance, etc...you know life challenges that we all deal with. If we decide to have children it will be our choice and my "seed" won't be any different if we weren't married. Does a "holy" marriage make it more "real". The divorce rate may be slightly lower but I think the majority of that is guilt......i know...i know....Just opinions...

 

I don't see how this is selfish? Do you feel its selfish because we aren't doing something for the glory of God? I'm just asking, not trying to push buttons. Don't you think that God is the most selfish "being" in the universe? Creating a world of existence just to serve him? I think that the majority of us think about ourselves and our families first and foremost...we all keep a small peice of our minds for the sake of humanity as a whole...Who really has time to change the world? Some do and I'm glad they are there...Most of us have to work for a living and "livin on prayer" won't put food on the table.

Edited March 27, 2012 by BOHO

[DieHARDmitsu.]

 

I'm sorry man, but no it doesn't. Please refer to post 103 for the explanation I already posted about the nature of "truth". Here's a direct link to that post. http://www.starquest...dpost&p=1260552 It's not a two line explanation, but again, topics like this can't be summarized in little one liners. You have to really concentrate and hunker down and try to make sense of it. It will take a concerted effort.

 

 

 

It very well may be that there is no "why", but the fact that science can't explain something doesn't give us the right to invent answers.

 

 

 

The "5 limited senses" are the ONLY things ANY human has EVER used to experience the world. So there's no use making appeals to any imaginary 6th sense or ESP or supernatural powers or any of that. It is well understood, by science, why people experience what they perceive as "extra" sensory things.

 

 

 

So, in your opinion, it's better to simply stick to your guns when someone proves you wrong? Or are you saying that if you're ever wrong, no one should ever listen to anything else you have to say? I mean geez, it's a good thing we don't hold one another to that standard. My question is why aren't you critical of religion for the times it's been "caught with its foot in its mouth"? Like the time it said the earth was 6,000 years old and flat, or the time when it said the sky was held up by 4 pillars at the corners, or that dinosours and humans lived together? How about the time when it said that the sun orbited the earth, or the time when it said that children who die before being baptized go to limbo, only to later "utter something completely different" and say they go to heaven?

 

Why is it that science has to get everything right on the first try, but religion can keep getting things wrong and it doesn't cause you to doubt a word of it. How is it better in your view for religion to flatly insist it was never wrong than it is for a science to openly admit its error and update its stance to comply with the newly gained data?

 

 

 

I'll just borrow the standard old refutation. God is said to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. For thinking people, that creates the following logical problem. It's commonly referred to as the problem of evil. "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able, then He is not omnipotent. Is He able, but not willing, then he is malevolent. Is He both able and willing, then whence cometh evil? Is He neither able nor willing, then why call Him God? Really try to think that through for a while.

 

 

 

Half the world's population lives on less than $2/day in destitute poverty. If your God is divvying up miraculous physical ability, "certain condition, talent, and/or physique" to privileged American born rich people, doesn't that call into question His priorities? I mean, not even a little bit? Could he use that power to have say, oh I don't know, 1/10th the world's population be born into poverty instead of half? Should I be able to come up with better ideas that God?

 

 

 

And with all respect to you, I recommended that you look into logically fallacioius reasoning. Please consider doing so.

 

Mankind planted the seeds of "evil" not "God" as you put it. We have been killing each other for the longest because of the man made religions and other differences. Its happening in the world as we speak. Again, with all the technological and scientific achievements we have made, the "krem de la kreme" is used for war...again, "how intelligent is that". We create our own suffering not the "omnipotent being"

[BOHO]

 

Mankind planted the seeds of "evil" not "God" as you put it. We have been killing each other for the longest because of the man made religions and other differences. Its happening in the world as we speak. Again, with all the technological and scientific achievements we have made, the "krem de la kreme" is used for war...again, "how intelligent is that". We create our own suffering not the "omnipotent being"

 

DieHard,

 

I think this kinda goes to that "gray area" as I like to call it....Where we can't seem to find the line between what God is responsible for and gets credit for...and what we blame "evil" or mankind on. With a being as powerful as God how can we differentiate when he is at work or just sitting on the sidelines letting things happen?

 

Braden

[DieHARDmitsu.]

 

DieHard,

 

I think this kinda goes to that "gray area" as I like to call it....Where we can't seem to find the line between what God is responsible for and gets credit for...and what we blame "evil" or mankind on. With a being as powerful as God how can we differentiate when he is at work or just sitting on the sidelines letting things happen?

 

Braden

Well, I said way back, the Creative energy is always at work even in destruction. It continuously provides. We on the other hand haven't used it for the best reasons hence the suffering.

[BOHO]

Well, I said way back, the Creative energy is always at work even in destruction. It continuously provides. We on the other hand haven't used it for the best reasons hence the suffering.

 

I don't want to assume you believe anything...I was raised in a Baptist home and I was raised to believe that we all have a predetermined plan and that God watches over us on a continuous basis...omnipresence...

 

I will keep this short....For this example I will use my most personal experience...My grandpa became ill, he was a good and honest man, a religious man...He coudn't work, He would sit in his chair and cry because the headaches were so bad...I prayed for him to get better....He put a shotgun in his mouth....Was this his choice? I think it was...Was his mystery illness part of God's plan? Was this part of the creative yet destructive energy that you speak of?

 

Use this example and tell me what you think? How big of a part do you think God has in our everyday lives?

 

Braden

[chiplee]

 

Okay, so I have read it and im honestly not all that impressed. It is certainly worth noting and I don't doubt the findings, but does that mean that God wouldn't do that because it would make us too much alike? If that author stood so soundly behind it, he mine as well bring up that we are similarily related to a salamander because it has a reproductive system just like our species. I hardly doubt that the retrovirus is the ONLY thing that would link us directly to other primate species, in fact, im willing to bet that if they studied and researched, there would be other clues within our DNA that links us to other species as a whole. I just doubt that anyone would take the time to study that, but of course when it comes to a theory of evolution, people are hard at work in trying to prove that one theory without looking at all plausible possibilities. This in no way offers proof to me or edges me closer to thinking that evolution has occurred.

 

It wasn't about "linking us to other primate species". That's studied ad nauseum by brilliant teams of scientists at prestigious institutions, and is frankly quite well understood. Everyone "takes the time to study that". It was about linking mammals to a common ancestor. The FACT is, either we share a common ancestor with all mammals, or God set out to deceive us and make it look like we share a common ancestor with all mammals.

 

 

If you believe that I havn't suffered through pain, suffering and loss, then you are sadly mistaken.

 

What would make you think I believe that?

 

Further more, why on earth would anyone bring up such a story when someone has gone through such an ordeal. I certainly wouldn't and with anything, there is a time and place for everything. I was on the subject of miracles and thus brought that story as an example of a miracle in my own life.

 

But your daughter made it through her ordeal, and you suggested it was by God's grace that it was so. I simply asked you to consider how other families must feel when their 4 year old daughters are not offered the same grace. I think that's only fair. You offered your daughter's recovery as proof of God's power. People who lose their children have been known to have their faith rocked by the ordeal, but more commonly they count it as "God's test". From an outsider's perspective, it begins to look like nothing can ever be counted against this "god idea".

 

My best friend just lost his wife to small cell cancer in the liver. She was terrified and it was extremely difficult for her kids, husband and my family as we were all very close. But one thing that she did have as well as her family, was knowing that she would be in Heaven with no more pain or sorrows and this for the most part brought her and all of us around a sense of peace. This by no means takes away the healing process and the grieving, but it does give us something to celebrate as well. I can give another example if you wish to hear it that is extremely personal, but I don't feel like parading around about the topic just so you know im not living the peachy life with no direct disaster.

 

I'm sorry to hear of your best friend's loss, but all immortality ideologies give their adherants comfort. By that I mean that no matter what afterlife you believe in, as long as you actually believe it, you are comforted by the belief. What this means is that the "sense of peace" people feel from believing in heaven or some other afterlife concept is not proof that the afterlife concept is true. It's merely proof that believing in an afterlife helps people deal with death. But what could be more obvious? Of course it's comforting to think of death as a temporary separation instead of a permanant one.

 

 

 

I will make you a deal. I can pick up Cosmos at my local library or bookstore im sure and I will let you know when I have it. The book that I think you would find quite interesting and its even a novel, is called, 'The Shack' by William P Young. It takes several beliefs and truths and shakes the living day lights out of it all while reading a pretty good story. Its even a good response the, 'why an innocent child'.

 

Sounds good. I must warn you though that books don't make my reading list easily. At the first sign of intellectual dishonesty I will put it down and never bother with it again. I can assure you there will be nothing but pure intellectual integrity in Cosmos, and I'll expect the same from your recommendation.

[DieHARDmitsu.]

How does marriage in a church make a marriage any more sacred? I don't need God's approval to love my wife. We have to be married for me to see her in the hospital, health insurance, etc...you know life challenges that we all deal with. If we decide to have children it will be our choice and my "seed" won't be any different if we weren't married. Does a "holy" marriage make it more "real". The divorce rate may be slightly lower but I think the majority of that is guilt......i know...i know....Just opinions...

 

I don't see how this is selfish? Do you feel its selfish because we aren't doing something for the glory of God? I'm just asking, not trying to push buttons. Don't you think that God is the most selfish "being" in the universe? Creating a world of existence just to serve him? I think that the majority of us think about ourselves and our families first and foremost...we all keep a small peice of our minds for the sake of humanity as a whole...Who really has time to change the world? Some do and I'm glad they are there...Most of us have to work for a living and "livin on prayer" won't put food on the table.

If a man/woman gets married in a barn its all good, I never said anything about church. The vows between a man and woman should be more than just piece of paper; if thats all it is then the marriage is worth that much. Maybe some people do it so save on their taxes and car insurance.

 

Propose to a female, let her tears roll then tell her, I'll see you at City hall tomorrow to sign those papers. You'll get b*&% slapped so hard

If for some strange reason she agrees to still marry you but a formal wedding. On the wedding day, tell her, your feelings for her aren't nothing more than just chemicals flowing in the brain.

...you'll get a concussion this time.

[BOHO]

If a man/woman gets married in a barn its all good, I never said anything about church. The vows between a man and woman should be more than just piece of paper; if thats all it is then the marriage is worth that much. Maybe some people do it so save on their taxes and car insurance.

 

Propose to a female, let her tears roll then tell her, I'll see you at City hall tomorrow to sign those papers. You'll get b*&% slapped so hard

If for some strange reason she agrees to still marry you but a formal wedding. On the wedding day, tell her, your feelings for her aren't nothing more than just chemicals flowing in the brain.

...you'll get a concussion this time.

 

Meh....

 

Missing the point.....

[chiplee]

 

Mankind planted the seeds of "evil" not "God" as you put it. We have been killing each other for the longest because of the man made religions and other differences. Its happening in the world as we speak. Again, with all the technological and scientific achievements we have made, the "krem de la kreme" is used for war...again, "how intelligent is that". We create our own suffering not the "omnipotent being"

 

That's some plan. God can do anything, but he can't create a humanity without evil? Weak sauce.

[ucw458]

 

That's some plan. God can do anything, but he can't create a humanity without evil? Weak sauce.

 

 

LOL

[Shelby]

it's not been mention'd in this thread that mans so call'd advances have only recently made much head way , actualy by the worlds time clock only the last couple of moments have shown any real advancements

for thousands and thousands of years man sat arround throwing sticks and stones at each other

[ucw458]

it's not been mention'd in this thread that mans so call'd advances have only recently made much head way , actualy by the worlds time clock only the last couple of moments have shown any real advancements

for thousands and thousands of years man sat arround throwing sticks and stones at each other

 

Inventing computers has ramped up our advancement of technology. Also the transistor made it all possible. Those 2 inventions took us to where we are today.

[BOHO]

 

Inventing computers has ramped up our advancement of technology. Also the transistor made it all possible. Those 2 inventions took us to where we are today.

 

Does God or Man get credit for these inventions?

[ucw458]

 

Does God or Man get credit for these inventions?

 

 

hehe I guess that depends on who you talk to.

 

But I give credit to the 3 men who invented the transistor.

[john82wa]

Chip - thats why I was pointing out that it was a novel and should be treated as such. But the correlations and the authors perspectives in the book is what is interesting and sheds light on several beliefs of God as a whole. This book completly bashes religion and the traditional thinking of what our perception of God is and good vs evil. It's not about fairies, angels or demons but rather touches base on the 'why' question. Questions God's power, his love, compassion and anything & everything involved in the world he created.

 

And by the way - all your guys pictures of your engine bays is starting to make me sick....

 

..... just look at my hog, how do you like them apples??

 

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h41/john82wa/DSCF3348.jpg

[Metric-man]

Chip - thats why I was pointing out that it was a novel and should be treated as such. But the correlations and the authors perspectives in the book is what is interesting and sheds light on several beliefs of God as a whole. This book completly bashes religion and the traditional thinking of what our perception of God is and good vs evil. It's not about fairies, angels or demons but rather touches base on the 'why' question. Questions God's power, his love, compassion and anything & everything involved in the world he created.

 

And by the way - all your guys pictures of your engine bays is starting to make me sick....

 

..... just look at my hog, how do you like them apples??

 

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h41/john82wa/DSCF3348.jpg

John82wa

I don't know about your personal views, but I like the reference of your car as a hog.

[john82wa]

John82wa

I don't know about your personal views, but I like the reference of your car as a hog.

 

.....a very very deprived hog who is turning out to be sick in more ways then I thought possible

[ucw458]

And by the way - all your guys pictures of your engine bays is starting to make me sick....

 

.....a very very deprived hog who is turning out to be sick in more ways then I thought possible

 

 

Don't feel bad. It just takes time and effort to get them right. For example this is what my engine bay looked like 2 years ago.

 

http://i463.photobucket.com/albums/qq352/ucw458/Resto/enginebayassembled.jpg

[john82wa]

Unless I win the mega millions, im thinking I might need more then 2 years..... I have a baby girl (will be 4 girls for my wife and I ) on the way - so funds and priorities will once again be stripped away from the conquest. But hopefully I can still tinker and clean it up a bit. But, truly, wow - Your cars do look absolutely phenominal!!

[Metric-man]

I know a few of 12 step adherents that are atheists and they bash organized religion constantly it’s like they're trying to pay everyone back for their parents making them attending Sunday school or being forced to be an altar boy,

Like a nonsmoker that use to be a smoker is going to be the greatest advocate for a smoke free society.

For example if someone is predisposition to need a vice - having an addictive personality they will just rechanneled that addiction into another form such as a cause.

 

I think our human minds are so easy to fool even ourselves that others of our own kind have been able to use those same weaknesses against us for if not hundreds maybe thousands of years and because the average humans life span now it upwards to 80+ years (in well developed countries) we can only now through the use of advanced use of communication and access to several hundred years of historical data and accounts of these types of deceptions toward humanity, so it takes more for people to accept what another says as fact even if it is published in a scientific journal from an accredited college of academia.

 

So I for one personally need to weigh facts against what I already know from personal experience.

and if I can't prove someone isn't telling the truth I at least have enough believe and trust in my own experience with knowledge to have wisdom and I am comfortable with my view and have a profound reason not to trust anything without my own feeling on a subject being satisfied.

 

It is and has been the reasons why some people survive when others do not.

Call the process or me what you want, psycho, crazy, nuts, loony, religious, or stupid, dumb, retarded, deft, mute, and blind, but if I do not reflect on or try to assess what is being conveyed and relate that to myself and an inner voice. I make far too many misjudgments.

 

I don't know what you would call it but I have stopped trying to question it for the last couple of years.

It has always been strongest when I was at my weakest and has never failed me not once and has saved my life numeral times of those that I can recollect.

 

I don’t care if you believe me or not if you want to criticize me for my beliefs or actions,

I will just feel stronger bond to my convictions.

 

And I don’t personally believe in an omnipotent God or Christianity as churches see it.

I just believe I am awake and alive.

[lmwii]

i find the conceit that you can't love another person if you don't believe in god to be both amusing and alarming. i guess all the non-christians (or just non-believers?) in the world are all dead on the inside, knowing no wonder or hope or affection, huh? what a crock.

 

you believers can all go on cherry-picking the spectacular and unexpected good as miracles attributable to god and assigning the bad stuff to the evil of satan and man, but for those of us with our eyes open you make a funny (and scary!) picture. i mean, follow your god-has-a-plan logic to it's conclusion, and you should just sit in the dark waiting for god's will and plan to carry you forward. god's plan includes the suffering and deaths of thousands upon thousands a day (we just don't understand the will of god, right?) so folks who don't believe are just part of that plan too, right? why pray to get well if you're sick? shouldn't you rather pray that HIS will be done? it's his will your child dies or your wife gets cancer. embrace that s***, and pray that he'll keep working through your family.

[patra_is_here]

So in the eyes of an Atheist, marriage is just a piece of paper you sign up with your lady. The feeling you feel for her and your children are just chemicals releasing in your brains Man that just seems cold and selfish form here.

NO!! marriage isn't just a piece of paper. marriage is our promise to each other. it is OUR word. OUR bond. it's for us, not for the state, not for god, not for society. it's special because we say it's special. the paper just helps us save money on taxes and lets the rest of the faith based society understand that when my wife is sick at the hospital, i have a right to see her. and just because chemicals released in our brains make us feel good, and knowing that it is a chemical reaction, doesn't somehow devalue the effect. i love her because I love her, whether the love is a chemical reaction or not, it doesn't change the outcome that i am labeling love.

 

and as far as being cold and selfish, the entirety of the universe is cold and selfish. it is by CHOICE that we decide to be warm and caring. the belief/nonbelief in god doesn't make me into a good person. i'm good because i see that being good benefits myself and those around me, and it seems to be the only way to keep the species going for another 10,000 years. I want us, as an animal, to thrive through the millennial, long after i'm gone. i guess maybe that's an element of my core 'purpose'; to contribute to the future so that we can continue, rather than contribute to the downfall of the species. so, yeah, atheists can have a purpose too.

[DieHARDmitsu.]

 

Meh....

 

Missing the point.....

Sorry you didn’t get what I’m saying. Let me give it another shot.

Not many females would feel enthusiastic about bonding when the bond itself was just based on the signing of a piece of paper or something chemically related to the brain. It has to be worth more than that for her to fall at your feel or want to have you kids, usually; a divine or heavenly feeling between two people is usually the connection that brings about marriage.

 

BTW “marriage” shouldn’t be an event Atheism encourage because it derives from religion. It would be pure hypocrisy for one who doesn’t believe in religion or faith to get married.

A civil union would be more fitting based on the values of the Atheist; check “I do” on a piece of paper, sign, kiss her to release some chemicals in the brain and mouth then leave the building.

 

 

That's some plan. God can do anything, but he can't create a humanity without evil? Weak sauce.

When we have kids, the sensible thing to do is to raise them with good morals, to be law abiding citizens, and to respect others; this way, they can contribute and don‘t become a burden to humanity. Often, some don’t turn out to be the seed we sow. Those who become killers, rapists choose that path of “evil.” “God” as you keep on calling it or the “creative force” as I call it is a constant and has nothing to do with the free will of man.

The “weak sauce” of man creates “evil”…again, greed, lust for power, hate, envy, ect…

 

it's not been mention'd in this thread that mans so call'd advances have only recently made much head way , actualy by the worlds time clock only the last couple of moments have shown any real advancements

for thousands and thousands of years man sat arround throwing sticks and stones at each other

some truth to that.

 

Inventing computers has ramped up our advancement of technology. Also the transistor made it all possible. Those 2 inventions took us to where we are today.

The planet is in limbo because of the technological advancements. In less than 300 years we have polluted, over populated and exhausted the resources of this planet. The extinction of some species of animals, those left in few numbers and the rapid rate at which the Polar Ice Caps are melting are also because of man’s actions. We can thank ourselves for that.

Can you imagine where 300 more years along the same path will leave us?

 

i find the conceit that you can't love another person if you don't believe in god to be both amusing and alarming. i guess all the non-christians (or just non-believers?) in the world are all dead on the inside, knowing no wonder or hope or affection, huh? what a crock.

 

you believers can all go on cherry-picking the spectacular and unexpected good as miracles attributable to god and assigning the bad stuff to the evil of satan and man, but for those of us with our eyes open you make a funny (and scary!) picture. i mean, follow your god-has-a-plan logic to it's conclusion, and you should just sit in the dark waiting for god's will and plan to carry you forward. god's plan includes the suffering and deaths of thousands upon thousands a day (we just don't understand the will of god, right?) so folks who don't believe are just part of that plan too, right? why pray to get well if you're sick? shouldn't you rather pray that HIS will be done? it's his will your child dies or your wife gets cancer. embrace that s***, and pray that he'll keep working through your family.

According to Atheism, sentimental feelings are just mere chemical releasing and stimulating the brain; nothing more. This is the core value of the Atheists, as all things known strictly derives from science and other proven discoveries and theories of modern man. Science does not see love as the heavenly or divine state of being that people of faith think it to be. Again, its just the brain reacting to chemicals.

 

For someone who doesn’t believe in Faith or a Creator to tell someone “I Love You” it kinds hypocritical.

Love is non existent, non material, in the eyes of science or the non faithful. It would be more accurate and less hypocritical for that person to say to the someone they are drawn to that “I feel chemicals in my brain releasing for you” instead of “I love you.”

[patra_is_here]

I just believe I am awake and alive.

 

i think you meant to say "I am awake and alive". belief isn't involved in this case