chiplee Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) Well if there is not god what did you loose out on? nothing. if he is real what did you gain? everything. The same is true of Allah, or Baal, or Horus though, or any human god idea. What have you lost if you believe in a God that doesn't exist? Nothing. But if that god happens to be the true creator of the Universe, and you believe in him, you gain everything. So you could use this logic to justify belief in just about any deity, especially the deities we're supposed to be rewarded for believing in. Logic that can be used to justify belief in "any" deity, is not usually helpful to people who currently believe in no deities at all, because it doesn't help them rank the various god ideas in order of "most likely to be true". Now, as an aside, it's debatable whether you've actually "lost nothing" if you've devoted your life to a false god idea. Time spent disregarding scientific discovery in favor of worshipping an idea that ultimately turned out to be false, could be regarded as a gross missed opportunity. There is a fascinating world of knowledge to be gained by those who don't view it as counter to their immortality ideology, and if it turns out that you really only get one life to absorb as much of it as you can, it would be an awful waste to spend your life ignoring it because you were afraid it would prevent you from getting into an afterlife that doesn't even exist. For some it's worth the risk. For others, it's not. It's even debatable whether or not you "gain everything" if you guess right and believe in the true creator of the Universe, because eternity may turn out to be no paradise. The very concept would rob your life (or afterlife) of purpose. No matter what you wanted to do, you would have an eternity to put it off. Nothing would be special. No moment would feel "fleeting" or precious. To paraphrase youtube's thunderf00t, you exist for a blink of an eye in your earthly form. Your best bet may be to bask in the impressive instant until the matter you're made of dissipates from whence it came. read the bible and do your own research. It is important you get accurate knowledge. God ask us to walk by faith not by sight. the knowledge of man is foolishish compared to the creator's so you won't find the answers you seek in your history text book. What other book has actual laws to govern, law of conduct, how treat you neighbour, wife, acquiantance etc. which means you can back up what you say with scripture. Well, U.S. state and federal penal code for one. That has laws that govern conduct and how you treat your neighbors, and your wife and your acquaintances. And when you conduct yourself according to the law you can back up what you say with that code. Think of it this way if we were to see the end of the world as we know it tomorrow, how would you act. the lessons learned in the bible will teach you the christ like way to deal with adversity. How would you act if you had to take in a bunch of strangers. What rules would you set down in your house. would you send them away? What would you do if your childern are being torchured in front of you. Remember it will be men doing this not cat, dogs, reptile lol. same men who have no believe, no faith. I think it's safe to say that it would be entirely more likely for those people to be people of faith. The lessons you learn will build character so whatever you do you will be blameless if you follow the example of christ. . So this highlights one of the bigger problems with "faith". It can have this tendency to make a person actually believe that anything they do in the name of god is correct. Some examples are more frightening than others, but in general, the thought is frightening, because no matter what atrocity a Christian commits in the name of Christ, or by Christ's example, all of the other Christians will simply say the person had misinterpreted or misunderstood. We end up with an accountability problem. So what is credible? evolution? What will it profit you to believe in that? did evolution make a promise to you? does it love you? what exactly does it teach, I think that is the question you really need to ask BTW. If evolution was accurate there should be a diverse array of advanced beings, evolved turtles, reptiles etc. after all they were around eons and had more time to evolved than we. The planet should be something like what john carter landed on lol. There is always some theory changing or something, kinda like a liar that keeps changing his-story(get it?), the bible is always the same. Read the truth and you will be able to discern the lies. Study the lies and they can change them up to make more lies. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of evolution and evolutionary processes. The book "Full House" by Stephen Jay Gould would help you understand if you're ever interested. The reason the "lies" change is because it is an axiom of science that it is subject to updating when better information becomes available. It's said that science deals with questions that may never be answered, while religion deals with answers that can never be questioned. I for one prefer to "learn" from the group that admits its ignorance of our origins. After all, none of us can "know" how life began or how the universe came into existence, and only science admits that to us. Edited March 24, 2012 by chiplee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 (edited) Something I saw today made me curious. People say god is love and satan is bad. But,.... in the bible how many people did satan kill? How many people did god kill? I can't think of a single story involving satan killing someone. But I can think of stories where god laid waste to entire cities and civilizations. Seems kinda ironic to me. Can anyone think of a story involving satan killing someone? This is a serious question. Please don't start fights. I really do want to read your answers to this question. Good question. Here's my answer. You've highlighted an important inconsistency between modern social norms and biblical norms. In today's society, at least in the industrialized world, it is universally accepted that killing is bad. There certainly are circumstances where we accept that killing is necessary, but we never view killing as a "loving" act, except perhaps in some tertiary "protection of loved ones" kind of way. The direct act of taking a life however, especially an innocent life, is never "loving". By biblical standards, these things can be interpreted as "loving" acts. That seems to be the inconsistency you're really trying to figure out. People are correct to point out that killing isn't the only form of evil, but it is telling that they are so willing to accept the starvation death of tens of thousands of innocent children per day at the hands of their "all loving" God. And make no mistake, if God exists, then it is His direct action that causes that suffering and death. Everything is His will, and no being can at once be all knowing (aware of the suffering), all powerful (able to stop the suffering), and all loving (unwilling to allow the suffering), without being the direct cause of the suffering. This is a logical impossibility. Here's how you reconcile this "problem" you've identified. If you view religion, and the Bible as a biproduct of the human psyche, the inconsistency makes perfect sense. Humans are inconsistent. The pages of the Bible reveal a deep look into the mind of the people who wrote the book. Where they struggled to cope with their own brutal nature, they wrote in an order from God to be brutal. "See," they said, "it's not my fault, I have to do what God says and brutally murder this family." (or stamp out this entire civilization, or enslave this particular race of people, etc. etc.) Where they struggle to cope with their own selfish sexual desires, they write in an order to keep the women for themselves. Man's nature is all over the Bible. God represents man's psyche. He is selfish, insecure, brutal, judgmental, etc., just like the men that created him in their own image. When it's read this way, it makes perfect sense. When it's read as the perfect word of the divine creator of the Universe; as the word of the being that created man in His own image, it is extremely difficult for an unbiased person to accept. You should struggle with it. We all should. Edited March 24, 2012 by chiplee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted March 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Well if there is not god what did you loose out on? nothing. if he is real what did you gain? everything. read the bible and do your own research. It is important you get accurate knowledge. God ask us to walk by faith not by sight. the knowledge of man is foolishish compared to the creator's so you won't find the answers you seek in your history text book. What other book has actual laws to govern, law of conduct, how treat you neighbour, wife, acquiantance etc. which means you can back up what you say with scripture. So what is credible? evolution? What will it profit you to believe in that? did evolution make a promise to you? does it love you? what exactly does it teach, I think that is the question you really need to ask BTW. If evolution was accurate there should be a diverse array of advanced beings, evolved turtles, reptiles etc. after all they were around eons and had more time to evolved than we. The planet should be something like what john carter landed on lol. There is always some theory changing or something, kinda like a liar that keeps changing his-story(get it?), the bible is always the same. Read the truth and you will be able to discern the lies. Study the lies and they can change them up to make more lies. That right there is another reason why I'm not religious. Selfishness. The motivation to believe is knowing you will be forgiven and repaid. That's not being penetant. That's being selfish. Thinking of thine own self first. Would many still believe if there was no reward? I bet not. Too many people use religion as a means to an end. You should want to be a good person because it's the right thing to do. Not because you hope to get rewarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 That right there is another reason why I'm not religious. Selfishness. The motivation to believe is knowing you will be forgiven and repaid. That's not being penetant. That's being selfish. Thinking of thine own self first. Would many still believe if there was no reward? I bet not. Too many people use religion as a means to an end. You should want to be a good person because it's the right thing to do. Not because you hope to get rewarded. Yup. It's the same way we teach children how to behave. Threat of punishment for bad behavior, and promise of reward for good behavior. You'd like to think adults could be good without a punishment/reward system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostdquest89 Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Would you bet your life on that? I already have.Chad- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metric-man Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Just posting so that three atheists have participated in one thread on SQC. I think that's some kind of record.I have been mistaken as a believer in mans religion before, and do not wish to make that mistake again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOHO Posted March 24, 2012 Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 Yup. It's the same way we teach children how to behave. Threat of punishment for bad behavior, and promise of reward for good behavior. You'd like to think adults could be good without a punishment/reward system. I think you would/have argeed that fear of consequence is needed for society to work chip? People make decisions everyday based on the negative consequences which would result from a certain action. Speeding tickets have a strange similarity with religious duty if you think of it this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 I think you would/have argeed that fear of consequence is needed for society to work chip? People make decisions everyday based on the negative consequences which would result from a certain action. Speeding tickets have a strange similarity with religious duty if you think of it this way. Sure, good point, but there's an important difference between secular and religious law. The key difference is about whether or not the "subjects" of the law need to be watched 24/7. In secular society, the laws you're referring to are there as a deterrent, but it's assumed that you will generally choose to do the right thing whether or not you're being watched. In religion, the laws don't work like that. In religion, it is assumed that without an all knowing overseer, you could not control yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionbull Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 That right there is another reason why I'm not religious. Selfishness. The motivation to believe is knowing you will be forgiven and repaid. That's not being penetant. That's being selfish. Thinking of thine own self first. Would many still believe if there was no reward? I bet not. Too many people use religion as a means to an end. You should want to be a good person because it's the right thing to do. Not because you hope to get rewarded. Wrong, that was not the implication. You do it to serve Christ and that is the problem, most don't want to serve out of the goodness of their heart. You don't want to do works but want a reward? That is selfish amoung other things...I don't have that problem so mind yourself. I can't and won't defend mankind's religion, I speak for myself. There is not one man here or anywhere that does not have a complaint in this life and we are in this together the sooner we realize this the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmwii Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 evolved does not always equal more advanced. so a turtle is evolved, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be writing a book anytime soon. it merely means that it works as a turtle better than what came before it. evolution never stops, but advancement in intelligence or any other measure certainly might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionbull Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 evolved does not always equal more advanced. so a turtle is evolved, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be writing a book anytime soon. it merely means that it works as a turtle better than what came before it. evolution never stops, but advancement in intelligence or any other measure certainly might. there are many creatures that have not changed except in a smaller size because of the athmosphere's lesser oxygen content. sharks, crocs, turtles dragonfly, archnid and the list goes on. There are modern and old style archnids. so old remained old and a modern species develpoed and now we have tewo styles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metric-man Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 The idea that man is more intelligent than other life forms on this planet is debatableFrom a human perspective, just because man can kill, procreate, change the landscape, and propel objects into space does not actually constitute intelligence.We have possibly only equaled ourselves to being the same as insects.That may be the only problem with our species in that,we need an example to follow in order for the rest to evolve. I’m not implying I’m Doctor Doolittle but when is the last time you spoke to a turtle? That is the problem with religions they are made by man to control others.Historical accounts for that matter mostly are used to this end result.I still think the human species is relatively new to the evolutionary food chain,and other species have been around much longer, who’s to say they need the ability to speak or write to communicate with their environment. Humans have a long history of being controlled by their vanities.Our weakness and flaws may just be a failsafe to protect the other species on the planet,and equal out the playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted March 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Wrong, that was not the implication. You do it to serve Christ and that is the problem, most don't want to serve out of the goodness of their heart. You don't want to do works but want a reward? That is selfish amoung other things...I don't have that problem so mind yourself. I can't and won't defend mankind's religion, I speak for myself. There is not one man here or anywhere that does not have a complaint in this life and we are in this together the sooner we realize this the better. Careful, you are on the verge of starting an argument that could get this thread locked. Please don't ruin it for everyone else. In your first response you talk about profit and gain. In your second response you say that's not what it's about. That's 2 contradictory replies. I say your first reply is correct. Religion is about profit and gain. If there wasn't the story about heaven and hell then there would be no incentive to believe. Religion would be meaningless. And that's all it is, a story. Handed down generation after generation. Do you realize those stories are several thousand years older than christianity? The bible itself is a collection of stories from other older religions. Other religions now deemed false by christianity. The eqyptian god Horus (much older than jesus) is the basis for the character jesus in the bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmwii Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 The idea that man is more intelligent than other life forms on this planet is debatableonly to the ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionbull Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Careful, you are on the verge of starting an argument that could get this thread locked. Please don't ruin it for everyone else. In your first response you talk about profit and gain. In your second response you say that's not what it's about. That's 2 contradictory replies. I say your first reply is correct. Religion is about profit and gain. If there wasn't the story about heaven and hell then there would be no incentive to believe. Religion would be meaningless. And that's all it is, a story. Handed down generation after generation. Do you realize those stories are several thousand years older than christianity? The bible itself is a collection of stories from other older religions. Other religions now deemed false by christianity. The eqyptian god Horus (much older than jesus) is the basis for the character jesus in the bible. Speak for yourself if you want an argument. I don't deal with horus, egyption pagan deity, false gods etc. Holy Bible denounces all these things don't you know that? Have you taken these intriguing questions of yours to your local pastor instead of a car forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted March 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Speak for yourself if you want an argument. I don't deal with horus, egyption pagan deity, false gods etc. Holy Bible denounces all these things don't you know that? Have you taken these intriguing questions of yours to your local pastor instead of a car forum? Well that's your choice. But how can you be sure your belief is correct if you haven't studied others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmwii Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 because of faith, the unanswerable point. that is the end of all these arguments, and the reason why, ultimately they are pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionbull Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 ucw458, if you believed your life, soul, salvation etc was at stake and you had a chance to do something about it. Does it still mean nothing or is that not a profit to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john82wa Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Im just wondering why all the attention and majority of responses to discredit the bible or Gods intentions is a reference to the old testament. There is so much more in the bible than those books and so much has been changed since Christs ressurection. With many of the questions or comments about God is ultimately in control of our path and that if we commit bad things, horendous terrible acts, that it must be God who has allowed this to happen because he didn't change the path and he is all powerful. This is where free will comes into play. With free will we are susceptible to temptations and in some end results comit terrible acts of violence of hate. This is not God's doing and it certainly wouldn't be his goal for anywone. It's what God does with these evil things that makes God so good. His plan can only be worked out after we make our foolish decisions and so what seems like an absolute roller coaster ride, God knows are destination and knows where we will end up. Its our freewill that chooses the 'often' bumpy path. I will use my sister as an example - my sister was shot two times and her twin boys were beaten and starved & was held captive for nearly a month. My sister lost her boys because of some very bad decisions. Was it God that made that man shoot her and beat her boys? No, it wasn't God. Could he have changed it? Probably, but he already knows what the end result would be. My sister had always been addicted to drugs, she had two other daughters who she wasn't there for and the list goes on and on. But after this terrible event - it has blessed my sister beyond belief. She is free from drugs, she has a relationship with her daughters and her twin boys were adopted after she lost them to a fantastic home in which they all keep contact. There is so much more to the story, but it indeed turned out to be one of the best things for my sister. Then there is the question of someone terminally ill. Why would God let someone die that is so faithful or just a good person in general? There is a time when God calls us to be home with him and I firmly believe that. I also believe that through our life experiences, we can touch so many people through either our death or through our walk through life. God knows when that time is and he will use that for a purpose that is not known to us. There is often times where we certainly become broken and its through Gods grace that we are able to overcome it. Ive heard this related to God / Jesus being a shepherd. In ancient times, a shepherd would not leave his flock and he would sleep in front of the gate and awake if the sheep become attacked to frighten them away. Everything done was to protect his sheep. If for some reason a sheep gets away, the shepherd would go to that sheep and take his staff and break the leg of the sheep. Then the shepherd would bandage his leg and carry that one sheep back to the herd and nourish it back to health - that sheep no longer leaves the shepherd. God works in this kind of way. This is obviously my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted March 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 ucw458, if you believed your life, soul, salvation etc was at stake and you had a chance to do something about it. Does it still mean nothing or is that not a profit to you? What brings you to the conclusion all that is in danger? Why do you put so much faith in a book that was made in the 14th century? Yes the bible was created in the 14th century from many written works. Only the stories that supported the churches view were included. Not only that but the bible for a long time was only written in latin so the common man couldn't read it. Another form of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john82wa Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 In regards to other religions - I find it difficult because of the requirements one must do to earn its 'gods' blessing. Further, Christianity has the one and only true living God - but that gets into the trinity. Also, the bible is the most documented book and has so many references to eachother and to other books within the bible. I guess it boils down to faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionbull Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 What brings you to the conclusion all that is in danger? Why do you put so much faith in a book that was made in the 14th century? Yes the bible was created in the 14th century from many written works. Only the stories that supported the churches view were included. Not only that but the bible for a long time was only written in latin so the common man couldn't read it. Another form of control. i guess you are educating the forum? well you aint saying nothing. How is it the bible still prevails to this day then? even with all the suppressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOHO Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 LOL.... Most people caught up in modern day religion/faith don't have a broad spectrum of WORLD religion and what has really happened over the last 2000 years. Some of the "rules" coudn't or shouldn't have applied 1800 years ago but according to the bible they do. "My God" "My Religion" is a good way to illustrate this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 (edited) evolved does not always equal more advanced. so a turtle is evolved, but that doesn't mean that it's going to be writing a book anytime soon. it merely means that it works as a turtle better than what came before it. evolution never stops, but advancement in intelligence or any other measure certainly might. Indeed, and I'll add (for everyone else's sake) that "advancement" in evolution is the exception, by far. The rule is stasis. Over time the majority of species tend not to change much at all, nor do they "advance". It is another huge misconception that evolutionary theory predicts or expects "advancement" and that, if evolution were true, we would have talking dogs and flying humans and such. It predicts diversity. That's all. This is the misconception Gould set out to correct in "Full House". The VAST majority of species are extremely simple, and have changed very little for billions of years. They haven't needed to change, because in their environment, they are perfectly suited for survival. They enjoy sufficient reproductive success in their current form for speciation and adaptation to be effectively halted. We call them bacteria, and on a "number of life forms" basis, they outnumber us about a billion to 1. Where we do see advancement, we see it primarily because the "change" that must result when species evolve initially had no other option but to proceed from a "left wall" of simplicity. Species don't "adapt" actively as we tend to think of it. It's just that the individuals less well suited to the current environment enjoy less reproductive success. So they don't pass on the gene for being "less well suited" to their environment. Evolution is very passive in this way. But, since it's difficult to get simpler than single celled organisms, some species did get "less simple" over time. In other words, they advanced. What we see today as a wild array of diversity and advancement, is all real, but it is rare when considered relative to ALL life that has ever existed. What is infinitely more rare, is intelligent life. Gould said that if life were started over again on the earth, intelligence might not have happened. Some today say it probably would not have happened. Edited March 25, 2012 by chiplee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john82wa Posted March 25, 2012 Report Share Posted March 25, 2012 Well, they say it takes more 'faith' to believe there is NO God, then there is to have 'faith' in believing there IS a God. Sorry, would have responded sooner, but had to tuck my girls in and pray with them Good questions though and im glad there is intelligent conversations.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts