marksweet Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 I just heard tonight that Ford is using the air conditioner on their supercharged truck to cool the trucks intercooler! Imagine feeding 50 degree air into our intercoolers? I don'y know the how to but some of the bright guys here should be able to fine an inexpensive and simple way to do this to our cars. How about it guys how can we do it? Ford is claiming a 50 hp increase with this option. If we didn't worry about cooling the cabin and just the intercooler we could push some really dense air into our engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 yeah the benefit would certainly out weigh the cost of keeping the A/C if you could route that air into the engine. I've heard of ford doing this too. It's interesting but I think the CO2 idea guys have been talking over lately could have similar results and be a bit easier to do. It's interesting though, especially if you still have working A/C in your car. Might be as simple as routing the plumbing. I wouldn't cool the intercooler with it, I'd just pump it right into the intercooler piping after the intercooler. It would be like driving in winter temps with summer traction. very cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 One option: toss the intercooler and replace it... The factory intercooler is an air-to-air intercooler; that means it cools host boost-pressured air with external air. Some cars (Lotus Esprit Turbo for example) use an air-to-water intercooler; water is pumped over the intercooler instead of air since water can "pick up" heat much quicker. This warmed-up water is then run to its own radiator. Advantages: a much smaller intercooler is needed which reduces the volume of piping that the turbo must pressurize --> less turbo lag. Also, you can mount this intercooler between the turbo and the intake manifold to shorten the pipes even further - even less lag. The water plumbing then runs the longer distance to its own water-to-air radiator... big deal. Imaging taking a two thin tubes and twisting them together... lots of surface contact area. Do this for a long distance or better yet make a dozen such pairs each about 6 inches to a foot long... you've just made an air-to-whatever intercooler. Of course, there are even better ways to make this; I'm using this as an easy-to-visualize example. Now instead of blowing cold a/c air over a regular intercooler, instead run the a/c refrigerant through one set of the paired tubes! You've got an air-to-freon intercooler! You can take the boosted air pressure and knock it down to almost freezing temps in a small volume... and you can probably rig this assembly between the turbo and the throttle body to reduce lag. On factory StarQuest air conditioner systems the air conditioner "chills" the freon in the expansion valve (like all a/c systems) which is located under the dash in the big black plastic box above the passenger's feet. The evaporator and expansion valve are co-located basically. You'd have to chop this box up to tap into the cold freon. Or, if you can live without a/c, you can remove the metal a/c hoses going into the firewall (under the big ABS booster) and route them over the engine. The expansion valve itself is a dinky little thing that just screws onto the a/c lines. mike c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glox Posted April 8, 2003 Report Share Posted April 8, 2003 Read with interest the post on intercooler modification or elimination. Raises some questions. We open up the air can via holes and cutouts, the K & N filter, and improved airflow to the turbo and TB. All draw most of the new air from warmed air in the engine compartment. Now we provide additional cooling per posts above to improve the efficiency of the turbo. At what point do we say we may be fighting the system. How do you decide which element is having more impact on the engine, air volume or air temp? Glox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welderwiz Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 I would say the first order of biz would be to eliminate the OVCP and get it away from the hot valve cover! Insulate your ducting and get some outside ambient air in the engine compartment also. Then deal with cold charge air system. Dont put the cart before the horse. My 50 cents worth - inflation, still not worth didley ;D Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHC Posted April 9, 2003 Report Share Posted April 9, 2003 well the A/C to intercooler would not be that hard, just take alot of time and fabrication skills. route the high pressure side nozzle from the "output" of the condensor, to a brass fitting that will run to a small manifold of say, 4-5 ports. Take tubing from that manifold, through the end tank(top to bottom) at the drivers side and then route back to 1 tube and do the same on the passanger tank, then route it back to the normal fitting to the cabin A/C tubing. This requires 20(yes 20) holes drilled and then resealed in your intercooler. 5 top and bottom, EACH SIDE, So if your not that great with TIG, off to the machine shop. I wuld also suggest doing this on a "spare" intercooler. You are basically, just having the hot air(in the intercooler) flow over the copper/aluminum tubing that the A/C is flowing through to help give a "cold shock" and lower the inlet temp an additional 20-50*, which inhearantly increases power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marksweet Posted April 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2003 Jason what do you use to control boost and which port do you have it tapped into? I assume you have 3 ports-2side by side and one closer to the turbo itself. Once again you have an awesome quest and you should be proud of what you've accomplished. I have a similar set-up with a 19c turbo. I am going with the SDS EIC system as I can't get enough fuel to boost much over 7psi. Are you leaving your SDS disconnected given your great results? Thanks for your time. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TsiRacer Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 how about buy a big bag of ready ice and bungie tie it to the intercooler... Very cooled for runs on the track... ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heefner Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 Durring the summer between runs I put ice on my intake and on top of my IC. I also spry it down with ice water before each run. It might sound a little rediculous but I know it shaves 1 or 2 tenths off my times. I also have a garden sprayer back at the pits and when I come back in after a run I leave the car run and spray down the oil filter, oil cooler and radiator with water to help cool the car down. You can almost watch the needle drop from half to less than a 1/4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metric-man Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 this topic will end up in the b.s. forum.. but I want to point out air conditioning is a parasitic draw on the WHP so how can you justify using it to make more horse power? How about just plumbing the air can into the passenger compartment and turn up the AC... or if you could run the AC compressor off of an electric motor that might help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted April 11, 2003 Report Share Posted April 11, 2003 That's obviously a concern metric-man but just thinking about it, it seems clear that the benefit of 40 or 50 degree colder intake charge would far outweigh the cost of any parasitic losses. But you're right, that's speculation until someone does it. There was a rule of thumb floating around for expected HP increase per 3 degree decrease in intake air temp but I forget what it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quest340 Posted April 12, 2003 Report Share Posted April 12, 2003 The load of the a/c is quite a bit more than "parasitic" drag. Your compressing refrigerant in the neighborhood of 200psi. Toggle your a/c while your on the freeway its like dragging an anchor when the compressor comes on. Like previous postings. Insulate all your intercooler piping that is under the hood. That will keep intake temps down, May look bad though. Your comparing a V8 diesel engine that makes loads of torque, alot more to spare than a 4 cylinder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Deep Posted April 14, 2003 Report Share Posted April 14, 2003 just finished a "cool" IC mod last night. I have a homeaide elect boost controller running off the cruise switch. Well i ran a relay that will close at the same time the b/c opens. this relay throughs a heavy grnd to the third fan(one between the condeser and intercooler). this pulls a small amount of air across the I/C. that wasnt enough so i fab'ed a piece of sheetmetal from the top of the I/C to about 2/3 up on the fan.this really pulls a lot of air over the I/C yet dosent block any componant cooling.this would be helpfull whenever idling, sittin at a light next to a stang you wanna toast, or waiting for your turn at the track. use a piece of cardboard to make your template. its gonna be in the 80's this week so ill be running the A/C and 15psi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJpowerHaus Posted April 16, 2003 Report Share Posted April 16, 2003 Why not just route the intake into the cabin of the car. You can run the AC waiting to make a run and then shut it off and suck in cold air during the run. Its a big reservoir for cold air that both the driver and the HP can benefit from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPX Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 It all sounds good but... ??? Why do all of that converting, etc. when Nitrous express has a CO2 n-cooler kit which would accomplish the same thing for under $400 Basically a fogger setup that mounts in front of your intercooler and looks nice.... I've seen thew N-cooler kit it on a 240sx/S15 Sylvia conversion that was awesome .. That's on my August wish list ..... later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conquest351 Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 Well, what Ford is doing is they are taking the intercooler coolant reservoir and putting an AC condensor in there. There is a switch inside the cab that you can hit that shuts off the flow from the normal reservoir and allows the use of the 30 degree coolant in the backup reservoir. Remember that they are using mainly antifreeze as their media so it can cool to less than freezing. This supercooled liquid then gives the truck a nice boost in performance for about 30 seconds. More than enough to show some punk he ain't nothin. Then it automatically shifts back to the main reservoir and allows the backup to cool itself back down. I personally don't like air to water intercoolers for that very reason, your heat absorbing media will heat soak quickly and thus become useless to you. I know there are ways around this but do you actually want to put another radiator in the front of your car just for the intercooler? You can put one of the small ones but the surface area exposed isn't enough to keep the coolant temperatures down to where I personally would like to see them. Now, you can modify an air to air intercooler or you can have a cool box right before the throttle body. The cool box would be easy. Get like a box made from aluminum and inclose an AC condensor out of a fairly common full size car like say a Crown Victoria or something. Have nice fittings on top of the box for the AC lines to connect to and hook it all up. There you go! What you could do is have a switch that would turn the flow to it on, or have a switch that would change the flow from the cab AC to the cool box AC and there ya go. I figure you could drop the temp inside that box to about 40-50 degrees if you let it sit there and charge up for a little bit. I think it'd be something to experiment with. Also as Chip stated, there is a way to make a CO2 spray bar across the intercooler that would do about this same effect but a lot easier and simpler. Laters, Brian PS Maybe Tex & I will try the AC thing on the Red Rocket car..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinx Posted June 28, 2003 Report Share Posted June 28, 2003 AC for intercooling is olllddd news.... there's hardly anything new under the sun - just old ideas revisited. Want some neat trix? Copy the DSM guys.... they copy who? yep... GN guys (lotsa brainboxes there). Air to water intercoolers are great for the strip, but not so much on the street, once cooling medium has absorbed heat. Shorter, less fussy intercooler piping is a nice benefit Water / alchy injection is always cooler, and you could actually get around running race gas. O2 sensor safe too Mod the necks on your stock fmic or run a better unit (with pipes entering the top). At track time, imerse the cooler in a "cold box" (enclosure filled with ice/ware mixture). Some GN club member have knocked more than 0.5s off their ET using it. Simple, cheap, effective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcharisma2004 Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 My dad told me about a Guy in this Gn that had a cooler in the passenger floor board and had plumbing comming out of it and into the engine compartment to where he hada water to air intercooler.  My dad watched and before every run the guy would dump a bag of ice into the cooler.  I thought that was real neat and if i had a car with a turbo fun dtrictly race i might do it        James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest castmem Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 Well i was asking my dad bout this intercooler air cooling stuff and he brought up a product that apparently has been around for awhile. It's an intercooler with side tanks on it that hold dry ice... That would most definatly be a help to us... -Dustin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89onaquest Posted August 12, 2003 Report Share Posted August 12, 2003 What would be nice is a secondary "exchange box" that would have A/C run through it. It could give a constant 35-40*charge when the A/C is one. I think the power gained from this would more then make up for any parasitic loss from the A/C being on... Imagine throwing in 45-50* air into the engine... the density, and timing you could gain on that! And the advantage over Co2 would be, that you would not have to run lines, and refill the tank...And not mention having to mount the tank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stariongirl Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 hey this wont work! only way putting a/c to the i/c will work is if you could actually chill alll the i/c rows! sticking a/c lines in the i/c wont do it. your car flows tooo much. just think if you routed the i/c pipes into the actuall a/c cooling unit that cools the cabin air. air would flow past to fast to exchange any heat. a full cabin full of chilled air could be swallowed by the engine easily. plus the extra lines under the hood will absorb heat.....make the a/c condenser hotter. so the only place the air is exchanging heat is where it touchs the i/c rows. and the places it is getting warm is everywhere else. hey i feel smart now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89onaquest Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 hey this wont work!  only way putting a/c to the i/c will work is if you could actually chill alll the i/c rows! sticking a/c lines in the i/c wont do it. your car flows tooo much. just think if you routed the i/c pipes into the actuall a/c cooling unit  that cools the cabin air. air would flow past to fast to exchange any heat. a full cabin full of chilled air could be swallowed by the engine easily. plus the extra lines under the hood will absorb heat.....make the a/c condenser hotter. so the only place the air is exchanging heat is where it touchs the i/c rows. and the places it is getting warm is everywhere else. hey i feel smart now.  Edited out first part of my comment... If a person was to make a mini exchanger(aka exchange box) and put this into the IC plumbing, the charged air would have to flow through a 4X4"(that would have the A/C plumbed through it) or so sized box would significantly lower the air temp. Simple thermodynamics, a substance that flows over a colder surface will be cooled. It's the surface area that is provided which determines the effectiveness of the heat/cold transfer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stariongirl Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Edited out first part of my comment... If a person was to make a mini exchanger(aka exchange box) and put this into the IC plumbing, the charged air would have to flow through a 4X4"(that would have the A/C plumbed through it) or so sized box would significantly lower the air temp. Simple thermodynamics, a substance that flows over a colder surface will be cooled. It's the surface area that is provided which determines the effectiveness of the heat/cold transfer. exactly! that is why it wont work unless you chill the actuall intercooler unit. it is a cool idea and all just not so feasible IMO. but what is up with "edited out first part of my comment" seems everyone want a fight or am i outta line here? sorry to have knocked anyone :-[ i like the chilling the i/c with the a/c just dont think it is alll that doable. co2 and no2 sprayers much better and way more doable for the average quester. but i am just a newbie as i have learned from my good pals on the b.s. forum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thereconstructor Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 why use the a/c to cool the intercooler....its not to cost efective...i mean think about it if your goin to cool both the cabin of your car and intercooler your goin to have to get a bigger condenser and not every one can afford those things there kinda high in price...and if you dont get another condenser count on getting a bigger compresser which means more drag on the engine...thatd be like taking the turbo off and super chargeing our cars its pointless...i would say go with the nitrous express system so much simpler and cheeper....just my 2 cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Distorted.Clarity Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 i have a idea that im going to work on might become a GP.. ill keep you all posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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