Re: 250 RWHP....My goal...can this get my here...?

[Boosted_One]

Mike K probably made more on his 18psi run but his motor popped.  Lizzord mentioned the other night in chat that he thinks mike's motor popped from back pressure in the exhaust manifold.  That pressure is sometimes monitored on the dyno by serious builders.  In fact when I went to the dyno the operator was looking for the bung on my manifold to screw in the pressure sensor.  Lizz mentioned that when that pressure is excessive 400degree air can be pulled back into the combustion chamber and cause detonation.  A free flowing header and exhaust turbine would certainly cut down on the torque but it would undoubtedly be made up for 10 times over in work done over time or our beloved HP.

 

I have thought about this for quite awhile now and I also have feeling that there was MUCHO back pressure going on. After I blew the motor I did some serious investigating. Preignition can also be caused by backpressure. I have a feeling my exhaust pressure could have been at say 40 psi and the intake at 18 psi with the cam having hose profiles it does kinda add up. That pressure has to go somewhere. It's no surprise why this turbo spooled up so damn quick now that you disect it.

 

I also still do not feel comfortable about the ethanol blended pump fuel I was running either. I had that motor tuned pretty darn well but I couldn't get the A/F ratios down into the high 11's. No matter how much fuel I dialed in. Getting 259hp and 345 ft/lbs was no accident. Unfortunately that's all that motor was destined for.

 

Please don't take my dyno runs as the gospel end all be all. These runs I show are concrete numbers for use as something to go off of. They simply show results and not heresay or "I think".

 

Here's another thing... I am the only one out there with a dyno run with such a turbo. The smaller turbos may be getting more HP than mine  because they simply aren't throwing out the higher amount of air causing a build up of back pressure. That 20G turbo I had blew 735cfms @15psi! Then you have that dinky exhaust housing, restrictive exhaust manifold and a not so great flowing head on the exhaust. I think a 20G hybrid is very good for a good amount of power and can be very beneficial but it is not the perfect 1/4m turbo.

 

My approach to this is a header to scavenge the exhaust and a larger A/R and exhaust trim. When I say larger I mean Garret T4 style larger HAving scavenging means will do ALOT to help the exhaust side. I think with a good flowing header, exhaust housing, good head porting and the correct cam choice these problems will be greatly reduced. The dyno will tell for sure.

 

 

Were gunna get ya there Jacob. Somehow!

[Ratmtattat]

Ok, so I'm trying to follow this detailed discussion, and I was just trying to make sure I have some things straight.  If I was to upgrade to a larger turbo, in order to make it much more efficient, I'd need to do some major work to the exhaust side of things correct?   Like a really good port and polish of the head, doing away with the stock manifold, and a large exhaust.   But what else would be necessary?  It sounds to me (keep in mind that I'm really trying to keep up with this stuff) that something else needs to be done, but what?  Help?   ???

[ESIrType?]

Well I hate to bejz about it but like I said, when you do understand the equations it will help you out alot.  Based on what you wrote I have to gather that you don't understand the equation.  You state above that the math was way off and that the HP continued to climb after 5252.  Those two statements together are specifically what calls into question your understanding of the relationship between torque and HP.  HP is supposed to continue to climb after 5252 RPM as the equation indicates, but it's supposed to climb relative to torque (meaning climb above torque, but not necessarily increase).  It can fall or climb relative to itself, as can torque, BUT, it will ALWAYS be higher than torque after 5252.   The math is not way off, it is always right.  That's the beauty of math.  It is always perfect.  The mathmatician can be wrong, but never the math.

 

Bellow are the figures I got based on a dyno of my bike stock. I printed them off the net.

These number are from the 5252 equation...not all the numbers jive, but they are close. My numbers should have looked simular, but they didn't. My HP climbed sky high while my torque was almost none existant.

There's really nothing hard about this formula...I am just state what I remember when I did the math.

I don't know why my numbers were off so much. I can recalculate them using Excel.

 

               Torque x RPM

Hoursepower=      5252

     

             Horsepower x 5252

Torque=                   RPM

           

On the left side I entered the torque and did the formula in Excel for HP. For the right side I did it the other way around...

 

Horsepower/Torque Convertor                  

RPM      Torque      Horse Power      RPM      Torque      Horse Power

3500      33.0      22                          3500      3      2.0

3750      35.0      25                          3750      28      20.0

4000      37.0      28                          4000      37      28.0

4250      37.0      30                          4250      35      28.0

4500      34.5      30                          4500      33      28.0

4750      34.0      31                          4750      34      31.0

5000      33.5      32                          5000      33      31.5

5250      33.0      33                          5250      33      32.5

5500      33.0      35                          5500      32      34.0

5750      33.5      37                          5750      32      35.0

6000      35.0      40                          6000      33      38.0

6250      36.0      43                          6250      34      41.0

6500      38.0      47                          6500      36      45.0

6750      38.0      49                          6750      37      47.5

7000      41.0      55                          7000      39      52.5

7250      42.0      58                          7250      42      58.0

7500      42.5      61                          7500      42      60.0

7750      43.0      63                          7750      42      62.5

8000      44.5      68                          8000      43      65.0

8250      45.0      71                          8250      45      70.0

8500      45.0      73                          8500      44      71.0

8750      44.5      74                          8750      44      74.0

9000      43.0      74                          9000      43      74.0

9250      42.5      75                          9250      43      75.0

9500      41.5      75                          9500      41      75.0

9750      41.0      76                          9750      40      75.0

10000      40.0      76                      10000      40      75.5

10250      38.0      74                      10250      39      75.5

10500      37.0      74                      10500      36      72.0

10750      35.0      72                      10750      34      70.0

11000      34.0      71                      11000      33      69.0

11250      32.5      70                      11250      32      68.5

 

 

 

 

To find HP use the following equation.

 

HP=atmosheric pressure in psi * compression ratio * volumetric efficieny * cubic inches * rpm / 792001.6

 

There are more formulas to find AP, VE....too

[TSirocket]

Hey turbo26tsi im like an hour away from you.  I live in bryan ohio if you know where thats at.  I would like to check your car out sometime. personal message me

[Adi]

here;s another thought...

 

I was talking to Chip abotu MPI ...around 3k full setup...but I might also could do this and retain teh TB...(i kinda wanted to)Don't ask y....

 

I can get an OVCP with inj allready in it for 90...then hopefully the SDS complete with 2 injectors...order four injector harness from SDS and run a second fuel pump from the gas tank seperate filter, bcfpr, and a hobbes switch to turn on teh second gas system when ever I want the SDS to come on as well....Then weld in two of the bosses into the y's in the intake and the ovcp that has two in it...thats a helluva lot of gas....with 20g at 21.......free flowing 2.5 exh...cam... does that equal 250???

[Adi]

oh..hell with all that extra gas I could probably run 21 or better??

 

Have to keep in eye on what the pistons are doing then....I could also have the extra set of inj.. pulling gas from a cell; in the trunk...10g cell....but the cell wouldn't last too awfully long....so that when you jump out and turn the boost down to 12....

[chiplee]

helluva lot of gas without a helluva lot air equals a helluvalot of nothin.  Can't get around the fact that a 48mm tb sucks hard.  You'll get frustrated if you try to reinvent the wheel man. $3k for all this is rediculously cheap:

Manifold, modified for direct bolt on

65mm TB, ford

TPS, Air Temp, Coolant temp, and MAP sensors with all required new connectors

Magna distributor, with new connector for you to wire

4 new injectors if you choose but I'd say get them from Holley and save $300

   I paid $125per for Rochesters from Glen

Hawk EC21 EMU with wiring loom and diagram and software

Fuses, relays, relay bank for wiring,

And a Saab 900 ignitor

and a big turbo

You'll love your car forever if you get the MPI in it and do the big turbo and header later on when you have the cash.  I plan to push MPI on people like drug dealer though so it's obviously your choice.

[DJpowerHaus]

For some reason posts like this make me want to sell my car and get another Escort.  It just seems like so much trouble to get stock Eclipse GST, WRX, Accord V6... etc. HP numbers.  

 

Hell... when I get out of college Im getting a used works WRC car. :-)

 

http://www.bensrallypage.com/forsale/martin_escort.html

[Ratmtattat]

DJ, these are hp numbers were looking for at the WHEELS, not the flywheel.  240hp from the v-6 accord is nice, but 240 hp at the flywheel is easily obtainable.  I think I remember chip doing some math on his numbers and he was getting something like 400hp thereabouts the flywheel (estimate an 18% drivetrain loss).   It's MORE than worth it.  

[chiplee]

For some reason posts like this make me want to sell my car and get another Escort.  It just seems like so much trouble to get stock Eclipse GST, WRX, Accord V6... etc. HP numbers.  

 

Hell... when I get out of college Im getting a used works WRC car. :-)

 

http://www.bensrallypage.com/forsale/martin_escort.html

I don't think that checklist I gave Jacob will get him stock GST, WRX or Accord performance unless your idea of a big turbo is a 14g, but if you want an escort more power to ya'.   But what fun would that be?  I'm sure if you were trying to get over 300ft/lbs of torque to the wheels by 3,000 rpm from any of those cars you'd spend some serious cash.  You've got to build cars for the love of building cars, not because it's easy.  I've weathered my share (and that of a few others) of diversity in the engine modifying arena, but I ended up with a finished product that is more unique than 99% of the so called fast cars on the street.  Not to mention the fact that it still cost less than 99% of the fast cars on the street, and when something does break, I'll be 100% capable of fixing it all by myself.  I did alot of growing up while I built and rebuilt this car.  

[jinx]

>>"For some reason posts like this make me want to sell my car and get another Escort.  It just seems like so much trouble to get stock Eclipse GST, WRX, Accord V6... etc. HP numbers"

 

hehe... as mentioned, you gotta be in it for the love of it. I kinda feel where you're coming from tho.

 What gets me, is being around the old boards, there were some pretty powerful starquests. While I highly appreciate all the energy you guys are injecting into the starquest community, it seems to me that there's a missing link somewhere. There were simple combos running good numbers, as it appeared to be so easy to get good hp AND torque out of a street 2.6.

With all the cam threads, are the hydraulic and mechanical schnieders no good anymore ?

If guys ran 12s on the tbi, I figured mpi would go faster, no ?

Did anybody disect a "hot" proven 2.6 combo ?  Rollos' is one of my favorites... 11.22s is a sick time for a 4cyl in a heavy car - 20G + cam + tecII/mpi intake + mild port. No dope

Can hardly imagine anybody wanting more street power than that

I guess we'll see. Too bad I can't contribute as I had to put the 2.6 on hold. I still plan on using all dsm first gen stuff to run mpfi 2.6.

 

On the escort thing, it is ridiculously easy to make power from the 91-6 GTs same 1.8dohc BP motor as the miata. Bolt on used ihi turbo / manifold (~$300), turbo ecu available from importers. Or run probe 330s or na rx7 465s injectors + safc + msd btm or jacobs (for timing retard) = one quick little sucker. 300hp is cake on a 100k mile motor. Thing only weighs 2400 pounds. Great motor! Some guys upgrade these things to uncontrollable 400+whp monsters. Its an excellent little platform... more overlooked than the starquest. My daily driver

[Boosted_One]

I think we are going so large on the turbo end we (I) are starting to see the areas that need addressing.

 

I am going to put my theroy to test this summer. I dumped the 20G for a To4b with a header and external WG with a race port. I have a feeling back pressure past 15psi was a big issue on my last set up.

[importwarrior]

i had my waste gate pop off one time, cotter pin must have broke off. but when i floored it with a 3 inch exhaust i was able to produce 3-4 psi of boost.

[Boosted_One]

i had my waste gate pop off one time, cotter pin must have broke off. but when i floored it with a 3 inch exhaust i was able to produce 3-4 psi of boost.

 

REALLY?

 

Shouldn't be close to making any boost with the WG wide open but there's that back pressure showing its face.

 

I am gald you posted that, very interesting!

[chiplee]

exactly mike... If my wastegate actuator is disconnected I can still build full boost eventually on my current setup.  It it slow but it builds eventually.

[Joel]

I think alot of people forget that HP does not mean a car goes X fast in the quarter mile.

 

Amount of Torque, Gearing, total RPM @ gear ratio, weight, tire size, traction, shift points, clutch, give in the suspension and driveline, and engine transcient response times are far greater in the equation than one thinks.

 

Lets look at an example:

 

A light flywheel; What does this item do? It lightens the drive train... Why would you do that? Engine Acceloration from rpm to the next improves (transcient response time). Stick it on a dyno, amaze yourself at the fact that you got NO CHANGE in horsepower, or even torque numbers. None. Zero.

 

So Use the dyno to tune a car to not blow up and run good. Do not use it to dictate how fast the car will go.

 

Now what is your goal as far as acceloration? Or are you looking for a road track car, or something else?

 

Something to note: Lizzords car's dyno plot i inserted into desktop drag2000... After playing with the numbers and realizing his theoretical best time would be ~ 14.1 (he got a 13.8), I decided to play with gear ratios. If Lizzord had used a single gear transmissions with a 1:1 ratio, with all that torque he would have run a 15.6@9xmph... Try THAT in a honda!

 

Joel

[Boosted_One]

On the new setup I am looking to (keep the pistons in 1 piece hehe) increase horespower and hold it online longer. I am willing to sacrifice a good chunk of torque to get there. My best pull was 259 HP and 345 ft/lbs.  On those runs I would have gladly sacrificed 30 ft/ lbs to get the 30 hp and keep it online longer. Would just improve things overall IMHO.

 

 

I like that single gear tranny idea...LOL!

[shift1313]

not that this will help you any but i remember seeing a number, maybe magic 271hp out of a back up normally aspirated starion race car.  Anyone know how they did it?

[Joel]

not that this will help you any but i remember seeing a number, maybe magic 271hp out of a back up normally aspirated starion race car.  Anyone know how they did it?

 

For one thing, More valve area (DOHC). That motor was likely not real comparible, aside from block, to what we have in our cars.

 

Joel

[TainterRacing]

here is the Dyno sheet from the car Lizzords car... as it did the 13.8 run soon I hope to get it on the dyno with the new Mpi and allll the other crap on it but this is with the 12a what we got........ the reson for the high TQ # is it made boost very very fast with a larger trubo it might not make as much TQ but,,,, the avergae might be better as it drop off fairly fast the Avg. is what matters over the peak any day. http://63.251.78.219/Image%20file/Dyno_and_Minimeet/Dyno/DynoSheet1.JPG

[shift1313]

what i remember was the NA was a 2.6 SOHC, could be wrong.

[Christobal65]

HKS produced 16 or so fully built race motors with prototype DOHC 16-valve heads on them they porduced over 250hp with out a turbo.  But as soon as mitsu droped the starion race program, mainly the rally portion, HKS stopped all major R&D on bigtime parts for the starion.

[shift1313]

i did some checking and found out exactly what you said.  DOHC.  its awesome.  I remember when the IMSA car and all its stuff went up for sale awhile back.  too bad.  i doubt hks has any laying around;)

[ESIrType?]

[quote author=jinx link=board=enginemods;num=1043435596;start=35#35 date=01/29/03 at 06:15:24

On the escort thing, it is ridiculously easy to make power from the 91-6 GTs same 1.8dohc BP motor as the miata. Bolt on used ihi turbo / manifold (~$300), turbo ecu available from importers.

 

That's funny. A friend of my borther and I had an 86 esir. He toasted the engine and sold it.

He bought his friends 95 escort gt that hit a dear and messed up the body kit on it.

Anywho...This kid got and IHI turbo, that was rebuilt, for nothing. He's slapping it on his car.

My brother just got off the phone with the kid and he's about to put the turbo on. I think were going out to his shop on Friday ot check it out..

 

Shawn

[Christobal65]

i did some checking and found out exactly what you said.  DOHC.  its awesome.  I remember when the IMSA car and all its stuff went up for sale awhile back.  too bad.  i doubt hks has any laying around;)

No but last i heard Chad, username here on the boards, was trying to sell one compleat for something like $8000