heefner Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 I would think if you went to 2.5" or 3" exhaust would help you get there. Also I don't think you will make 250 to the wheels without fuel mods, at least a better pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boosted_One Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 I agree with Heffner. No way on a 12A and stock fuel system. That set up I'd say would hit 200 RWHP at best Need a lot bigger turbo and fuel to go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Yeah man I said the 20g would get you there and that the 16g would get you 220 or so. 12a can't do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESIrType? Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 I must agree with you guys on the 12a not being that capable. I believe it flows 320cfm@15psi....that sucks! On the other hand I think if you would use every trick in the book for a NA engine and then slap a 12a on you'll be making some power. maybe not 250 rwhp, but possible more than 200rwhp. Even if you only make 200 rwhp, thats respectible in my book. I don't know if the stock head would take it, but try larger valves, a good port & polish (head, turbo, tb, intake and exhaust). Jet coating would make a diffrence. I have seem 30 horse claims on a big block in a magizine. Open up the IC and add a hard pipe kit. Knive edge the crank and have a windage tray and crank scrapper made. I believe that would help alot. Water injection would also help. Index your plugs too. A trick some corvette guys do is use their smog pumps for evac there crankcase to relieve the crankcase pressure. That makes a diffrence too.... NO, we don't have smog pumps, but I jet you could rig on up. reroute your colant lines that go through the TB to keep it from freezing. This will help cool your intake charge. It's not a good idea if you us it in really cold weather though. There are a handful of ways to make some more hp. I'm sure there is a balance between doing all that and just buying a bigger turbo and mpi. Alot of those things you can do if you have the know how and time. The great thing is they won't cost alot. I know I would love to do those things and make 230 rwhp w/a 12a, because when you add a bigger turbo your hp number will go up. The trick isn't alway going big, but to match parts. It's hard to do on our cars than a sb chevy, but it's still possible to an extent. That's my opinion on the matter...I don't mean to undermind anyone either.. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
importwarrior Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 if lizzard ran a 13.8 on his 12A what kind of horse power did he have to get that type of time? http://63.251.78.219/Image%20file/quest_best/DSC02028.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow_quest Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 a 13.8 would be around the 215-220 mark. Lizz never dynoed that "free mod" set-up i dont think.... Yellow_quest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 What's the deal? Where's the original post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boosted_One Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Looks like Jacob deleted it?? I thought I seen 208 HP from Lizzords 12A run. The torque was really up there though. It is harder to make high HP on these cars. However it is easy to make plenty of torque. That's why everyones dyno runs are always higher on the torque end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 I accidently deleted it last night...sorry guys.... Chip...My mistake...I thought you said the 16 would do it ... I am back to the drawing board with SDS and 20g then, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heefner Posted January 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 he just wanted to make me look like a tard. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 hehe....No it was a true mistake... Not tryign to make you look like a tard heefner...LMAO... But there should be NO doubts that an AIC controller and 20g will get me to 250... is there???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heefner Posted January 25, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 whats wrong, you don't sound too postive... lol. Every car is a little diff so for someone to "guaranty" that you'll spin the rollers to a tune of 250 would be impossible. But, chances are good that you will be close to that number, providing you upgrade your fuel dilivery and every thing is properly tuned. Man did that sound like a sales pitch?? Never mind I'm a tard hehehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 ROTFLMAO.... I don't know what to plan next...I guess just gettign it runnign first would help though...LMAO... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boosted_One Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Here's my best run on a 20G hybrid with 52mm TBI and additional injectors. Take note on the HP levels and the torque numbers... http://a9.cpimg.com/image/15/53/11136789-937b-02000110-.jpg This was 218Hp and 293 ft/lbs @ 17 psi if I remember correctly. Not saying it ain't possible but I never made it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSirocket Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 High hp is hard to make when we suck throught tiny throttle body. Restrictions make torque and our throttle body is the heart of the hp problem as far as im concerned. Im getting into machining through my dads access to 5 machine shops in the area so i plan to tinker around a bit and im going to bore my tb out to 52mm. I am also modifying a caravan intake which may help with the hp. I plan to go with 2 1/4 hardpipes and i also am going to open up the intercooler end tanks out to 2 1/4, their is no sense in 2 1/4 hardpipes when the intercooler inlet is only 1 7/8?? big hp numbers may not be easy to make but i would like to hit 230rwhp on a modified 12a. I say that because im going to taper the turbo to downpipe and it is already step removed. Peak hp is not an issue with me i want to make hp faster and hold it longer. Saying i want it to peak around 2000rpm and hold until 6500rpm. Which seems to be impossible at this moment. I believe bill the shifter guy had a nice dyno with hp curve past 6.5k before it dropped off. For now im broke and heading towards college so i have to work with what i have so mpi and t3/t4's are out of the question. I like torque so im happy but i need to do some work to stiffin up the suspension to apply the torque to the pavement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boosted_One Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 High hp is hard to make when we suck throught tiny throttle body. Â Restrictions make torque and our throttle body is the heart of the hp problem as far as im concerned. Â Im getting into machining through my dads access to 5 machine shops in the area so i plan to tinker around a bit and im going to bore my tb out to 52mm. Â I am also modifying a caravan intake which may help with the hp. Â I plan to go with 2 1/4 hardpipes and i also am going to open up the intercooler end tanks out to 2 1/4, their is no sense in 2 1/4 hardpipes when the intercooler inlet is only 1 7/8?? Â big hp numbers may not be easy to make but i would like to hit 230rwhp on a modified 12a. Â I say that because im going to taper the turbo to downpipe and it is already step removed. Â Peak hp is not an issue with me i want to make hp faster and hold it longer. Â Saying i want it to peak around 2000rpm and hold until 6500rpm. Â Which seems to be impossible at this moment. Â I believe bill the shifter guy had a nice dyno with hp curve past 6.5k before it dropped off. Â For now im broke and heading towards college so i have to work with what i have so mpi and t3/t4's are out of the question. Â I like torque so im happy but i need to do some work to stiffin up the suspension to apply the torque to the pavement I'd have to agree with you. Good summary! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 http://www.geocities.com/chip_lee_iii/dyno.html Well there are a few graphs from cars setup exactly like you plan to set yours up. Â The blue lines were my engine with a TEP stage 3 base that included porting and polishing. Â The TB at the time was bored to 52mm and the I/C pipes were 2.25 as well as the I/C inlet and outlet being 2.25in. Â So good luck getting 230wheel with the 12a, but don't hold your breath. Those graphs are both with a 20g. Â I agree that it could be done with the right N/A 2.6 mods, and then applying the turbo boost after all that is complete but there is a common problem with starquest 2.6s, and it involves the intake and exhaust. Â Unfortunately I doubt any amount of porting will fix it. Â I (well, we all) think MPI + big exhaust manifold and turbine housing are the only solution. Â The head will flow when boosted, especially when ported alot. Â I really think the stock turbine housing and exhaust manifold is nearly maxed out on my car which is making around 270whp. Â Mike K probably made more on his 18psi run but his motor popped. Â Lizzord mentioned the other night in chat that he thinks mike's motor popped from back pressure in the exhaust manifold. Â That pressure is sometimes monitored on the dyno by serious builders. Â In fact when I went to the dyno the operator was looking for the bung on my manifold to screw in the pressure sensor. Â Lizz mentioned that when that pressure is excessive 400degree air can be pulled back into the combustion chamber and cause detonation. Â A free flowing header and exhaust turbine would certainly cut down on the torque but it would undoubtedly be made up for 10 times over in work done over time or our beloved HP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESIrType? Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 I believe poeple are to hung up on torque! My understaning is that horsepower is a product of torque. Torque is what gives you that thrust in the pants feeling. Are you looking for 250 rwhp for everyday, or just once in awhile? I trick you can do is make a tank and coil you fuel line up in it and throw some ice in it. I hear dry ice in a coffee can by the airfilter helps too. Yeah those would be a pain to do for a daily driver, but for the dyno and track it wouldn't be to bad. Maybe you have a goal for the track.....if that's the case lighten your car. *edit* Think about power-to-weight ratio. At 3100 lbs with 200 rwhp, that's 15.5 lbs-per-hp. At 2800 lbs and 200rwhp that's 14 lbs-per-hp. It doesn't sould like much, but it's the same as a 3100 lbs car making 221.4 rwhp. *edit* Sorry about the lbs/hp figure...I had it the other way around. 15 hp-per-lbs would be nice!! ;D Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Oh kay 210-215wheel...If I can get THAT maybe I'll be happy...which I proably will...LMAO.... Oh kay I think this is my desicion.... SDS EIC 2 inj setup... 485 06-20g1a... 600 284 cam...180 300 on exh... Total=1565 total...yeah 18 months before completion...if everythign goes right... I will pick up these parts as the parts and money become available to me...I have a line on a SDS EIC for a good price...If I can pick it up before it's gone...that will be first peice...MAYBE...then I'll probably do teh 284 cam...then Exh....and turbo for last therefroe I will be able to tell the difference between the turbos...first it's back to my elec problem...maybe I can get that solved tonight or tomorrow. give me 18 months...then I'll dyno it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 I believe poeple are to hung up on torque! My understaning is that horsepower is a product of torque. Torque is what gives you that thrust in the pants feeling. Are you looking for 250 rwhp for everyday, or just once in awhile? I trick you can do is make a tank and coil you fuel line up in it and throw some ice in it. I hear dry ice in a coffee can by the airfilter helps too. Yeah those would be a pain to do for a daily driver, but for the dyno and track it wouldn't be to bad. Maybe you have a goal for the track.....if that's the case lighten your car. Think about power-to-weight ratio. At 3100 lbs with 200 rwhp, that's 15.5 hp-per-lbs. At 2800 lbs and 200rwhp that's 14 hp-per-lbs. It doesn't sould like much, but it's the same as a 3100 lbs car making 221.4 rwhp. Shawn HP is certainly a product of torque, or you might say it's varies directly with torque and RPM. Â Torque multiplied by RPM, divided by 5252 gives you HP. Â Instantly you should notice that torque and HP will be equal at 5252rpm based on that equation. Â Also of great importance in that equation is the fact that above 5252rpm, HP will always be higher than torque and below 5252 rpm torque will always be higher than HP. Â Grasp that concept fully and you'll begin to understand the importance of proper tuning and proper setup to maximize any one engine's performance. I don't follow your HP/Lb figures there, you may want to look over your calculations since a lighter car with the same HP must have MORE hp/lb and you have it the other way around. Â More importantly, I'd say people are too hung up about HP if anything. Â Both are important for different things. Â It takes big HP to go fast in the quarter, that's all there is too it. Â Big torque feels great. Â Most cars are modified for the street, not the track, and most street races hardly last 1/4 mile. Â So if I can get a car that makes 400ft/lbs but only makes 300hp, that's fine by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ESIrType? Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 Torque multiplied by 5252, divided by rpm gives you HP. Â Instantly you should notice that torque and HP will be equal at 5252rpm based on that equation. Â Also of great importance in that equation is the fact that above 5252rpm, HP will always be higher than torque and below 5252 rpm torque will always be higher than HP. I don't follow your HP/Lb figures there, you may want to look over your calculations since a lighter car with the same HP must have MORE hp/lb and you have it the other way around. Â The funny thing about the 5252 equations is I did alot of math on my sports bike after I did a performance rebuild. It was way off. After 5252 the hp keeps climbing. My bike doesn't make 140 hp @ 11,000 rpms. Maybe around 100 hp... About the hp/lbs math....you're right. I have it firgured out as lbs-per-every hp.....so it's 15 lbs per hp or the other equations is 14 lbs per hp. Thanks for clearing that up....I didn't mean to confuse anyone. Hp is what makes a car fast, torque is what makes a car quick. Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 The funny thing about the 5252 equations is I did alot of math on my sports bike after I did a performance rebuild. It was way off. After 5252 the hp keeps climbing. Shawn Well I hate to bejz about it but like I said, when you do understand the equations it will help you out alot. Â Based on what you wrote I have to gather that you don't understand the equation. Â You state above that the math was way off and that the HP continued to climb after 5252. Â Those two statements together are specifically what calls into question your understanding of the relationship between torque and HP. Â HP is supposed to continue to climb after 5252 RPM as the equation indicates, but it's supposed to climb relative to torque (meaning climb above torque, but not necessarily increase). It can fall or climb relative to itself, as can torque, BUT, it will ALWAYS be higher than torque after 5252. Â The math is not way off, it is always right. Â That's the beauty of math. Â It is always perfect. Â The mathmatician can be wrong, but never the math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo26tsi Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 here ya go, already did 250hp on a 18G turbo. Check out this link on tristarion and check out the dyno sheet. 2.5"exhaust 2.5" intercooler piping,huge FMIC, built head, stock bottom end. fuel pump, fuel filter, pump gas, 20psi boost, bad fuel cut-out......... 247hp 319tq http://www.tristarion.com/phpBB2/profile.p...rofile&u=53 It doesn't take that much to do it, just a little bit of time and some work. take care, Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 I WANT YOUR INTERCOOLER edit PLEASE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adi Posted January 25, 2003 Report Share Posted January 25, 2003 I want the CAR!!! Sweet!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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