Turbo Lubrication Problem

[Jayton]

looking at your Pic of you motor looks like you have a small rad. hose Just a thought make sure the coolent lines are all in good shape and not mostly pluged up and make sure they are flowing the right way I dont know cant tell if you change where they come from. Its a thought any how.

 

Yes, I am using 12AN SS braided hose and fittings in place of standard rad hoses. They are still in the stock location. I have no cooling issues and the car runs at normal operating temps even on the hottest summer days. I did my homework before installing this setup as I was also concerned it may cause a problem.

[Shelby]

did you run the engine at other then idle and observe if the oil flow increase'd .. idle on a turbo shaft requires very little oil to stop any wear,,,,inner walls on SS hose or any sort of hose can colapse or seperate with a small tear or cut,, pressure can get into this opening and cause a section to expand pluging off the rest of the hose opening so flow is cut off

beleave it or not the same thing has happen'd to metal exh pipes,, yrs back it was a wide spread problem on several car lines GM's esp

 

several years back my neighbor had a new dodge dully, the truck would run fine till you hit a bump and then it'd act like the exh was plug'd , hit another bump and it was fine for a while,

i open'd the cat and it was split in two pieces clean as can be,, one section could move a tinny bit,, but that was enought to close off the remaining area between the honey combs .. move a bit again and it was wide open and flowing fine

what i'm saying is some times you have to change your way of thinking and look for the not normal problem

[TainterRacing]

Have you made sure the coolant lines going to the turbo are not plugged or any thing?

[Jayton]

Have you made sure the coolant lines going to the turbo are not plugged or any thing?

 

I have not run the car with the return coolant line off to check the coolant flow. This is something I should probably do although I am told that these turbos are used in certian applications with no coolant with no problems.

[TainterRacing]

Those that don't have coolant flow the housing is not the same the Oil is used to cool it on a oil only one.

[Jayton]

Those that don't have coolant flow the housing is not the same the Oil is used to cool it on a oil only one.

 

Oh, I didn't realize that. Either way I'm gonna check the coolant flow. Is there a specific amount i should try to measure over a given time as with the oil flow test? Also, will the car will need to be fully warmed up so the thermostat is open or does the coolant at the turbo flow regardless of the thermostat?

[TainterRacing]

No the thermo stat Does not need to be open for coolant to get to it, coolant to the turbo it is feed right off the Water pump. All tho I would bet it don't flow much with out it open as there is no place for it to go with out it open. I would look Closely at both Steel pipes and look and make sure the Banjo bolts are clean as well. I not sure how much should be floweing there But I would say alot as it is right off the water pump. I have had thos pipes all most pluged on a car I bought before I had to run a coat hanger in them to get the crap out of them.

[Shelby]

you got that wrong coolant flows to the water pump not from it,,the lower rad hose is a suction port

now because of this it's super important the coolant level is above the top rad hose out let.

very piss poor way to route the coolant flow but they didn't ask me . most of the time the higest line in the coolant system is the turbo coolant feed hose,, and where does air go to,, the highest point in the system

what does all this mean at low rpms with the coolant level just a little low,,the turbo gets no fresh coolant at all,, it's only durring the higher rpms that the suction create'd by the water pump cause some flow to move thru the turbo but only if the rad level is high enought to have some move from the top of the rad into the turbo coolant intake port , once the thermostat is open some is force'd into the port by flow and also the suction create'd by water pump impeller action , but nothing is iron clad forceing the coolant to go the path to the turbo , the system i'm most use'd to working on is the volvo system here they use a heater hose as the source,, thus ensureing always a steady flow of coolant thermostat open or close'd

 

it needs to be point'd out that in therory the rad is always fill'd to the bottom of the rad cap seal ring , with excess coolant being push'd out into the recovery tank as the coolant heats up and then drawn back into the rad as the cooling system cools down , any failure of any part of the rad cap or a leak of any kind in the engine or hoses stops this function from working . in this condition the turbo will always have coolant available at the inlet port,,but any thing that effects the system may cause air to pocket at the inlet rather then coolant ,so the rad system must remain full at all times to ensure the turbo a supply of coolant when it needs it

[TainterRacing]

Thank you I did not realize it was sucking it there.

[Jayton]

So how vital do you guys feel the coolant flow is to the life of the turbo? I just don't want to focus too much on the coolant system as a cause to my problem if it doesn't aid much in the life of the turbo to begin with.

 

Also, any thoughts about the possibility of oil flow/volume being reduced somehow at higher RPM's? What might cause that to happen and how could i check or test for this?

Edited April 28, 2008 by Jayton

[emagdnim]

It was just a safety feature Mitsubishi used because they like to over compensate the parts they make.

 

You can leave the water out of it and it will last just as long, I've seen plenty of guys do it.

 

It's not that important.

[patra_is_here]

my .02 on this subject should be taken very lightly, as i have no experience in this problem, but, is it possible that you're losing oil flow only under acceleration? like, some other oil blockage or flow problem not related to those specific lines. sloshing? air getting whipped into the oil? sump drought?

[Jayton]

It was just a safety feature Mitsubishi used because they like to over compensate the parts they make.

 

You can leave the water out of it and it will last just as long, I've seen plenty of guys do it.

 

It's not that important.

 

Yeah I asked my rebuilder and he said the same thing. He would warranty the turbo just as long even if I eliminated the water lines to and from it.

[Jayton]

my .02 on this subject should be taken very lightly, as i have no experience in this problem, but, is it possible that you're losing oil flow only under acceleration? like, some other oil blockage or flow problem not related to those specific lines. sloshing? air getting whipped into the oil? sump drought?

 

This is very possible. Like I said, everything checks out fine at idle so I am considering what may or may not be happening under higher RPm's and under acceleration like you suggest. How can i test for these sort of things?

[Shelby]

oil volume @ 3k-3.5k should be twice or more what you have at idle

15-20 lbs vers 80 lbs

more flow equal more oil flowing out of the turbo oil return hose

 

and lets be honest if the turbo was design'd for water cooling use it,,

i have seen a turbo run with plug'd water ports and it cook'd its self in less then a yr ,

a drag only car may nothave 10 miles put on it in it's entire life ,, your street car is totaly diff

[jinx]

how is your crankcase breathing ? enough crankcase positive pressure there won't allow any oil to enter the turbo chra.

 

Will flow & be/look fine with the drain detached, but connected may be

another story

[Jayton]

oil volume @ 3k-3.5k should be twice or more what you have at idle

15-20 lbs vers 80 lbs

more flow equal more oil flowing out of the turbo oil return hose

and lets be honest if the turbo was design'd for water cooling use it,,

i have seen a turbo run with plug'd water ports and it cook'd its self in less then a yr ,

a drag only car may nothave 10 miles put on it in it's entire life ,, your street car is totaly diff

Yeah I have no intention of eliminating the water lines to the turbo, I'm just trying to eliminate any less likely causes to the problem so I can pinpoint the real cause.

 

The question remains as to how to check this? Afterall if I run the car at 3 - 3.5K with the either the oil feed line or return hose disconnected it could surely cause immediate damage to both the turbo and the engine. Are there any sort of diagnostic tools that can be placed between the feed line and/or return line to measure the volume at higher RPM's? I know I can measure pressure by installing an inline pressure guage, but not sure if they make anyrhing to measure volume?

Edited April 29, 2008 by Jayton

[Caliber308]

oil volume @ 3k-3.5k should be twice or more what you have at idle

15-20 lbs vers 80 lbs

more flow equal more oil flowing out of the turbo oil return hose

 

and lets be honest if the turbo was design'd for water cooling use it,,

i have seen a turbo run with plug'd water ports and it cook'd its self in less then a yr ,

a drag only car may nothave 10 miles put on it in it's entire life ,, your street car is totaly diff

 

Shelby,

A lot of members want to eliminate stuff under the hood. Why not the Turbo coolant lines? lol. I think i'll leave mine connected.

 

CALIBER 308

[Indiana]

the stock adapter in the oil filter adapter housing is to use a flared hard line, so is the fitting that is in the cartridge

 

what fittings are you using? are you using flare type fittings and over tightening them to make them seal where there is no hard line and that would mash the flare lip inside causing a restriction/

 

how about the oil filter adapter it self, the large tube that threads into the block has a hole in the side in the middle, the oil that goes to the sending unit and to the turbo feed gets all the oil flow through that hole, have you taken that apart and made sure there ins't debris in there?

 

The liner of your -3 brake hose may be loose and under high pressure and flow, something it may not have been designed to do may be flapping around, its a $4 part throw the thing in the trash and get a new one

 

or if you have good sense you'll throw that braided crap and all those bends and adapters in the trash and go get a heard line from the dealer that has no such 90 degree fittings and turns and restrictions and liners to worry about, and they don't turn nasty dirty in the braided cover either, I never understood why people put braided lines on their car for anything including brakes, like they could ever take advantage of them anyway

 

when you are under boost and the shaft is spinning 180,000 rpms is isn't at idle a maybe 1000rpms that's why you need the pressure and flow rates high

[UNDRPRSR]

I had this exact problem when my car was stock. I burned through three rebuilds in five months. I noticed one day after driving it that the oil cooler was cold to the touch. Every other turbo car I've worked on or driven was very warm or hot. I removed the oil filter housing and took it apart. There is a spring inside that was broken and it wasn't allowing oil to flow properly. I replaced it with a spring off a used motor and have never had that problem again. I now run either a T70 oil cooled or a 60-1 Garrett BB oil and water cooled and have no issues.

Hope this helps, Ben

[Shelby]

you may have some thing there ,deff worth a check

 

oh to answer your question about how can you do a 3k rpm check and not hurt any thing,,it's easy

you have the oil from the turbo flowing into a container and the inlt on the t-cover plug'd so as long as you do not alow too much oil to be push'd out of the engine you will be fine

i doubt the oil flow is such as it'd instantly dump 3 qts of oil , and the turbo is geting oil so it'd be no diff then you runing the engine as it was befor with return hose in place

Edited April 30, 2008 by Shelby

[Jayton]

I had this exact problem when my car was stock. I burned through three rebuilds in five months. I noticed one day after driving it that the oil cooler was cold to the touch. Every other turbo car I've worked on or driven was very warm or hot. I removed the oil filter housing and took it apart. There is a spring inside that was broken and it wasn't allowing oil to flow properly. I replaced it with a spring off a used motor and have never had that problem again. I now run either a T70 oil cooled or a 60-1 Garrett BB oil and water cooled and have no issues.

Hope this helps, Ben

 

Thank You for the tips and clues!

 

You're referring to the oil cooler bypass valve correct? Yes, that has a spring in it and from what i understand it opens at a certian temp to allow oil to flow to the oil cooler. If the spring or valve were faulty oil would not flow to the cooler, but would this affect flow to the turbo? I'm all for looking into this, but I just want to fully understand how the bypass valve plays into it. I may order a brand new one just to rule it out or hopefully it could solve my problem as it did yours.

 

I have posted in the past about eliminating the oil cooler bypass valve altogether and the positive and/or negative affect it might have. I don't see why eliminating it would be a problem except that the engine may not warm up as quickly. I forget what some of the replies were to that post 'cause it was a long time ago. I'll try searching for it.

 

I'm also gonna explore that hole in the hollow shaft that the oil filter adapter mounts to. Hell, I may as well inspect everything in that region while I'm at it.

[UNDRPRSR]

That's exactly what I was refering to but I couldn't think of the name of it. I can only assume that the oil was getting too hot because the problem went away as soon as I fixed it. I remember a couple of years ago Matt (CINquest) was working on one with an unbroken spring and didn't have the part so he just shimed it with a washer to increase the tension. If your spring isn't broken, you might try that first and if it works, then maybe order the new part.

[Jayton]

how is your crankcase breathing ? enough crankcase positive pressure there won't allow any oil to enter the turbo chra.

 

Will flow & be/look fine with the drain detached, but connected may be

another story

 

Sorry I overlooked this post. I am very interested in how positive crankcase pressure affects the oil flow to the Turbo CHRA. I am using a Krank Vent system which is supposed to create crank case vacuum and release positive pressure in the crank case.

[Jayton]

That's exactly what I was refering to but I couldn't think of the name of it. I can only assume that the oil was getting too hot because the problem went away as soon as I fixed it. I remember a couple of years ago Matt (CINquest) was working on one with an unbroken spring and didn't have the part so he just shimed it with a washer to increase the tension. If your spring isn't broken, you might try that first and if it works, then maybe order the new part.

 

So your saying to remove the oil cooler bypass valve and insert a washer in the opening that will put more pressure on the spring (opening the valve) when the valve is reinstalled?