What head gasket to use with an O-ringed block?

[Technology]

OK. I am pretty conflicted here. Everyone around me says to use a copper head gasket with the O-rings, but then I go on here and find people using the 8330 or whatever the number for the old stock gasket is.

 

What I want to know is if someone can prove to me that they have O-rings and used the gasket. I mean pictures, then a dyno sheet with boost and what turbo they used. I want to put this thing together only one more time. I know the head isn't "hard" to do, but it's annoying to dig around in the engine all the time.

 

Otherwise, for people with copper head gaskets, what did you do to keep it from leaking coolant out the sides? silicon around the oil/water passages or what? And for people with either the stock gasket with O-rings or copper and O-ringed, is it really a smart idea to be using the stock style gasket?

[kev]

I've been researching this topic too and am curious to see some replies to this thread.

 

My block is o-ringed and I have a copper gasket with SST o-rings (SCE). Unfortunately the engine has been apart now for 9 years do to the restoration of the car so it was never tried.

 

I've been considering dumping the copper gasket and going with the early model cq felpro gasket and SCE SST o-rings. I've also researched using a MLS gasket with copper o-rings (the v8 guys, mainly 4.6 mustang owners, do this a lot).

 

kev

[Dad]

I have seen posts that they use the early 8770 gasket and o/ring the block with no reciever groove. it only protrudes about .006

 

When using copper head gasket the wire would protrude about 30-33% of the wire thickness .041 wire would protrude almost .015 then you would have a receiver groove in the head approx .060 wide to accept the copper gasket and wire.

 

If you allow the wire to protrude too far with no receiver groove it will just cut the gasket and/or hold the head up and cause water leakage.

 

Tim C had a post a while back with a block that had the wire protruding a bit high.

 

Dad

[dstar88]

with the block that im getting built now,. its going to have i think copper o-ringing, its a toss up between the ajusa head gasket and the standard felpro 8770 head gasket. I think we will be using the felpro, because theres a chip in the block somewhere by the #4 cylinder, and may cause problems for the ajusa head gasket.

 

Hey Randy ill be ordering a set of rod and main bearings from you soon..FINALLY!!! lol Hopefully tomorrow or next week they'll have the block and crank mic'ed and will be able to let me know what size.

 

If you want Tech, i can take pics of the block and post the specs as well the next time i go over there. The head wont have a receiver groove so the protrusion is most likely around .006 or so.

 

 

 

Daniel

[Technology]

with the block that im getting built now,. its going to have i think copper o-ringing, its a toss up between the ajusa head gasket and the standard felpro 8770 head gasket. I think we will be using the felpro, because theres a chip in the block somewhere by the #4 cylinder, and may cause problems for the ajusa head gasket.

 

Hey Randy ill be ordering a set of rod and main bearings from you soon..FINALLY!!! lol Hopefully tomorrow or next week they'll have the block and crank mic'ed and will be able to let me know what size.

 

Don't pollute the thread with that stuff! I want facts and specs only.

 

If you want Tech, i can take pics of the block and post the specs as well the next time i go over there. The head wont have a receiver groove so the protrusion is most likely around .006 or so.

 

Daniel

 

Whenever you get your setup finalized and install it, please take the pics and post specs. I will have a similarly low ring protrusion because, like you, I don't have receiver grooves cut. But I plan on putting it back in the car within the next month, so if yours is going to be done sooner, I want to know what gasket you run and how it goes for you.

 

Thanks

[Scotty Dont]

I have been running an 8770 felpro with ss wire orings and .007 protrusion. My machine was in contact with Ed and Scott of Fuel Injection Pro when he was setting everything up and I believe their current 600hp car has the same setup as I. I don't have any Dyno numbers but I am running a 16g and I have had it up to 27psi (like a rocket).

[Technology]

Scotty, have you noticed any problems with your setup? I haven't tried too hard, but from what I've read, getting ahold of those FIP guys is like escaping from Alcatraz.

[Scotty Dont]

Scotty, have you noticed any problems with your setup? I haven't tried too hard, but from what I've read, getting ahold of those FIP guys is like escaping from Alcatraz.

 

No problems, been running this setup for over 2 years

[quikconq]

I have been running an 8770 felpro with ss wire orings and .007 protrusion. My machine was in contact with Ed and Scott of Fuel Injection Pro when he was setting everything up and I believe their current 600hp car has the same setup as I. I don't have any Dyno numbers but I am running a 16g and I have had it up to 27psi (like a rocket).

 

you have the block o-ringed??

i personally have the head o-ringed ,,with the 8770 and ss wire

 

sorry for the clutter

[ucw458]

I'm building an O-ringed engine right now. Gonna put it together tommorrow. Use the 8770 PT felpro gasket. Don't use an ajusa gasket it's too thick. The felpro 8770 works best. Also use some gasket sealer on it for added leak protection. I usually just spray permatex copper coat on both sides of the head gasket then torque it down. I never had a problem when I did it that way.

[Scotty Dont]

Ya my block is o ringed and I am using arp studs never sprayed the copper sealant on my gasket either and It's been fine.

[Funky Phil]

Im running an O-ringed block with an Ajusa, no receiver's and ARP's.

[Technology]

you have the block o-ringed??

i personally have the head o-ringed ,,with the 8770 and ss wire

 

sorry for the clutter

 

No, that's what I want to read. People who've done it before and had success. All the people here telling me to use copper I think are thinking perhaps a bit old school. If everyone here is using some form of a stock or redily available HG, I am fairly confident that it will work for me too.

 

I'll take pictures of course and post in my MPI build thread. Thanks for the info everyone.

 

BTW, what have you all been torquing the studs to?

[dstar88]

mine are at 90 - 100 if i remember correctly. Its gona be the same for the new engine too.

 

 

 

Daniel

[Scotty Dont]

I torque mine to 85ft/lb the first time then after 100 miles I retorque to 90ft/lb

[quikconq]

No, that's what I want to read. People who've done it before and had success. All the people here telling me to use copper I think are thinking perhaps a bit old school. If everyone here is using some form of a stock or redily available HG, I am fairly confident that it will work for me too.

 

I'll take pictures of course and post in my MPI build thread. Thanks for the info everyone.

 

BTW, what have you all been torquing the studs to?

 

 

when i had mine done...i took the gasket in to my machine shop,,and told them wat i wanted

im sure they could have figured it out but i wanted to put my input in....

i told them to aline the gasket(8770) to the head,,scribe the head,,then cut the groove in the center of the fire ring on the gasket

i cant remember wat wire protrusion i have ,,but the numbers above sound close to wat i have

 

now im sure they found centers of the bores and did wat they wanted to make sure all was in specs

 

i torqued my headstuds to 90

[Technology]

Good, I was thinking of going somewhere around 100lbs, I guess I'll try 95 or so.

[83TechMaster]

I have been running an 8770 felpro with ss wire orings and .007 protrusion. My machine was in contact with Ed and Scott of Fuel Injection Pro when he was setting everything up and I believe their current 600hp car has the same setup as I. I don't have any Dyno numbers but I am running a 16g and I have had it up to 27psi (like a rocket).

 

 

I have ran this same setup for like 4years with great success. He is correct about FIP running this same setup.

[Tim_C.]

Yes, I would follow what FIP did too. I am running an Ajusa from Dad on a Stainless Steel O-Ringed block with .017 protrusion. That much protrusion really requires a copper gasket. I torqued to 80, and it leaked coolant when I first filled it up before starting it. One drop every 20 seconds or so to the outside of the engine between head and block in one place. I then went ahead and torqued to 100 and it didn't leak there. I left them at 105 and have about 2000 miles driving with no problems so far. I have boosted it up to 14PSI. It's on an '86 and cuts out above that. It is a TEP T3/T4 turbo on one of Chad's equal length tube stainless headers.

[quikconq]

when doing yours be sure you pic the head gasket ,,that you plan to use for the life of the motor

 

my ajusa would not fit the orings for the 8770,,,which is fine cause the 8770 is a 1/3 of the cost

of an ajusa

[desert_starion]

almost 7 years on the O-RINGED head and Fel-Pro 8770 and boosts over 32psi and no problems what so ever

[Scotty Dont]

I did have an issue a while back that I believe was attributed to a poor fit up of the o-ring. I was boosting into the 30psi rang on a small 16g when the head gasket blew between 2 and 3. I replaced the o rings and did a much better job on the fit up, never had an issue after that.

[Caliber308]

O-ringing the Engine block along with the SCE Copper Head gasket is old news If you have a Engine block deck that is trued and a flat surfaced Cylinder head that are perfectly matched with a good head gasket...Why O-Ring? O-Ringing a Engine block tells me that something is not machined correctly. Cylinder head lift at high boost contributed to Cylinder head gasket or Head bolt failure? If the parts are machined correctly and you install a good MLS Head gasket with ARP Head studs at the proper torque, then why the need for O-Ringing? P.S. I see this a lot, members over-boosting because of bad advice from certain members on this site. To the newer members:You had better do some research prior to turning your boost up above stock levels.

 

Just my opinion,

Bill

Edited May 23, 2012 by Caliber308

[Chad]

It's not jsut about upward force, it's about side forces that want to push the gasket out sideways. At 30+ PSI, there is probalby 2500 PSI +/-in the combustion chamber. A .040" thick gasket has about a half square-inch of surface area in the chamber arround it's circumfrence, so there is about 1200 pounds of force trying to squease that gasket out the sides, about a hundered pounds per every lineal inch of fire ring surface area. The Oring entraps the gasket so it can't "slide" out. Head lift is unavoidable, with 2500 PSI, there is about 28,000 pounds of total upward force on the studs, they will move. when they move, there is less clamping force on that gasket keeping it from sliding out.

 

There were some pics of these Titan gaskets with ovaled out bores when they first came out, the sides were squished out till it blew or leaked. Pretty obvious demonstration of this process. Oring is more for fire ring slip prevention than for improving the seal on a less than perfet surface. a perfeclty machined surface will still allow fire ring slippage. Just as a poorly machined sruface will still leak, Oring or not.

[Caliber308]

It's not jsut about upward force, it's about side forces that want to push the gasket out sideways. At 30+ PSI, there is probalby 2500 PSI +/-in the combustion chamber. A .040" thick gasket has about a half square-inch of surface area in the chamber arround it's circumfrence, so there is about 1200 pounds of force trying to squease that gasket out the sides, about a hundered pounds per every lineal inch of fire ring surface area. The Oring entraps the gasket so it can't "slide" out. Head lift is unavoidable, with 2500 PSI, there is about 28,000 pounds of total upward force on the studs, they will move. when they move, there is less clamping force on that gasket keeping it from sliding out.

 

There were some pics of these Titan gaskets with ovaled out bores when they first came out, the sides were squished out till it blew or leaked. Pretty obvious demonstration of this process. Oring is more for fire ring slip prevention than for improving the seal on a less than perfet surface. a perfeclty machined surface will still allow fire ring slippage. Just as a poorly machined sruface will still leak, Oring or not.

 

Ok Chad. So what is to prevent a " O-ring" from blowing out too. I still feel that having both the Engine block deck and the Cylinder head surface perfectly flat with ARP Head studs (torqued properly) and a Good head gasket (like the AJUSA MLS) the best combination. Multi- layered Steel head gaskets will do the same thing that O-ringing the engine block will do: (see HKS Stopper Head gaskets).

 

Bill

Edited May 23, 2012 by Caliber308