Starfighterpilot Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) I have done some preliminary reasearch on the ZDDP being progressively reduced since API Service Category SF was superceed by SG and is now up to SM. There is a Posting in Virtual Mechanic on what Weight of Oil To USE IN OUR Starquest's. See the VM posting http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.p...mp;#entry921373 for this discussion. I have cloned my final post onto the BS Forum cuz it is viewed so much and you guy's should be aware of the API Service Category SM oil that we are using in our SQ engines. There is a LOT of controversy out on the internet about this. And a lot of people are REALLY PO'ed at the EPA. Even in Europe. I called a Komatsu Service Rep at Komatsu's corporate headquarters that I have worked with occassionally when I worked with Komatsu as a Field Service Tech. The guy REALLY knows his crap, he has been in the automotive/forklift industries for about 40 years. I specifically asked him if Komatsu's Genuine Engine 15W - 40, API Service Category CI-4/SL, CH-4/SJ, CF-2, CFoil could be used in a 1988 turbo charged, high performance 4 banger witout the problems of not having the ZDDP additive in it. He looked it up and said YES. This engine oil does have the ZDDP in it. I asked him what was the PPM concentration of ZDDP. He said that he didn't specifically know. BUT, he would get back to me in the next couple of days. I told him, from what I have been able to find out - the concentration should be right at 1200 PPM's. So for right now I have a jug of Komatsu's "Genuine Motor Oil" 15W - 40, API Service Category CI-4/SL, CH-4/SJ, CF-2, CF. Guess what? I have about 2300 miles on this oil change. Today I am dumping the Castrol High Mileage, 20W-50 oil and putting in Komatsu's oil. Maybe my lifters will now stop clicking and clacking. I just replace 'em about 6000K miles ago. So hopefully they are not TOO worn. BTW - for you guys that are overhauling your G54B engines - DO NOT USE API SERVICE CATEGORY SM OIL FOR YOUR BREAK IN. MANY, MANY posts out there about this. The general consensus is, use the Valvoline VT-1 Racing Oil - cuz it SEEMS to have the required amount of ZDDP in it. If you do not you WILL prematurely were out the tappets & cam lobes. The Valvoline VR1 Racing & "Not Street Legal" Racing Oils contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include LESS DETERGENTS (emphasis mine) than regular conventional motor oils. Cuz it's ONLY to be used for Racing and once the race is over it's DUMPED. And you guys that are running the Schrieder Valve Springs rather than the old worn out MITSU OEM valve springs - MUST be concerned about this - More spring pressure on the tappets and cam lobes. If you just think that you can just run out and buy some ZDDP aditive and throw it in your oil - WRONG!!!!!!! It seems just adding the ZDDP additive to your oil MAY not be beneficial to the engine. Cuz if you add too much you will start building up sludge in the engine. Ideal level of ZDDP is 1200 Parts Per Million (PPM). So you need to know how much ZDDP PPM is in the oil that you are going to use, and then find out how much ZDDP is required to achieve that concentration. There is some talk on the internet that going to 1300 PPM or greater causes sludge, and having 1100 PPM or less is not enough. I am going to clone this and put it in the BS Forum. It has much more visibility there. I have some family commitments that I have to do this week-end and I won't have any time to further research this MAJOR PROBLEM for us Starquesters. SEE http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/API.html for further info. For What It's Worth. KEN EDIT - use ZDDP in Google and find out more adout this BS that the EPA has pulled off on the guy's that have older cars. Edited July 17, 2009 by Starfighterpilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanta Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 half of this stuff is beyond me, but i feel ashamed for putting autozone brand 10w30 in the car now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionbull Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 so what does all this mean? should we change our oils sooner than recommended? chevron has a 15/40 brand i have heard things about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 half of this stuff is beyond me, but i feel ashamed for putting autozone brand 10w30 in the car now HHHHMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!! You DON"T go with the CHEAPEST you go with the BEST for the application. That may be why you are continually having problems with your Starquest, besides beating the crap out of it all of the time. Let this be a lesson to you. :thumbsup: :winking0013: For What It's Worth. KEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanta Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 HHHHMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!! You DON"T go with the CHEAPEST you go with the BEST for the application. That may be why you are continually having problems with your Starquest, besides beating the crap out of it all of the time. Let this be a lesson to you. :thumbsup: :winking0013: For What It's Worth. KEN The best application was the cheapest because it would leak right out! It's why I'm doing a complete 100% overhaul on my engine. My main priority aside from the bearings, was resealing the entire engine to eliminate all the leaks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiplash Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 The Zinc additive (ZDDP) is only needed whan breaking in a NEW flat tappet camshaft. After that it's no issue and is NOT required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 (edited) The Zinc additive (ZDDP) is only needed whan breaking in a NEW flat tappet camshaft. After that it's no issue and is NOT required. Whatever light's your fire. What documented evidence (NOT Hearsay or someones opinion) substantiates your statement? For What It's Worth. KEN Edited July 17, 2009 by Starfighterpilot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiplash Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 http://www.aera.org/eptb/TB2333R.pdf Or you can contact any camshaft manafacture that floats you boat. BTW. I work in service engineering for an automotive engine parts manafacture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PDX87Starion Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 http://www.aera.org/eptb/TB2333R.pdf Or you can contact any camshaft manafacture that floats you boat. BTW. I work in service engineering for an automotive engine parts manafacture. So far they just talk about break-in. But what about long term wear? If its not good enough protection for break-in you think there might be some issues after 50 or 100k miles? After break-in with ZDDP in dino oil, should we be using synthetic? BTW I brought this issue up years ago but no one really cared. :confused0024: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted July 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 http://www.aera.org/eptb/TB2333R.pdf Or you can contact any camshaft manafacture that floats you boat. BTW. I work in service engineering for an automotive engine parts manafacture. I heartily suggest that you read the third paragraph of your above reference. Cuz it says the opposite of what you are stating. For What It's Worth. KEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiplash Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I heartily suggest that you read the third paragraph of your above reference. Cuz it says the opposite of what you are stating. For What It's Worth. KEN I read it. It states what I said about camshaft break-in. Please tell me what is opposite. Maybe I worded it wrong above and sounds opposite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiplash Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 So far they just talk about break-in. But what about long term wear? If its not good enough protection for break-in you think there might be some issues after 50 or 100k miles? After break-in with ZDDP in dino oil, should we be using synthetic? BTW I brought this issue up years ago but no one really cared. :confused0024: I use synthetic in all my engines. Mobile 1 says you can use just after camshaft break-in. I talked to one of the engineers at Royal Purple a few years ago and he stated to wait 7 - 10K miles before using a synthetic oil. I also brought up this issue a few years ago myself. Only one member I know of listened and agreed with me. I'm not going to say Tim's name! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grazel3793 Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 ive always been a fan of castrol...and i have never had any issues.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack_Morris Posted July 17, 2009 Report Share Posted July 17, 2009 I have always broken in engines on Valvoline (whatever weight the engine calls for) and the swapped to Mobil1 fully synthetic (same weight as break in oil). I have never had a problem caused by the oil itself. It has always been other issues. I broke my Starion in on Valvoline 10w30 and after 3k miles I swapped over to 10w30 Mobil1. 1st rebuild: blown headgasket from overboosting caused by faulty wastegate 2nd rebuild: knock caused by fubar'd oil passages in the head causing lack of oil in the pan, and to be honest, lack of proper cleaning on my part. 3rd rebuild: car was sold shortly after, unsure of what caused engine failure or what exactly failed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I have always broken in engines on Valvoline (whatever weight the engine calls for) and the swapped to Mobil1 fully synthetic (same weight as break in oil). I have never had a problem caused by the oil itself. It has always been other issues. I broke my Starion in on Valvoline 10w30 and after 3k miles I swapped over to 10w30 Mobil1. 1st rebuild: blown headgasket from overboosting caused by faulty wastegate 2nd rebuild: knock caused by fubar'd oil passages in the head causing lack of oil in the pan, and to be honest, lack of proper cleaning on my part. 3rd rebuild: car was sold shortly after, unsure of what caused engine failure or what exactly failed I break mine in on just plain oil LOL. along with a bottle of Comp cams additive. You guys argue too much. Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fanta Posted July 18, 2009 Report Share Posted July 18, 2009 I break mine in on just plain oil LOL. along with a bottle of Comp cams additive. You guys argue too much. Dad It's a site of predominantely males. Sooner or later, swords cross. :scared0016: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nomad Posted July 1, 2010 Report Share Posted July 1, 2010 I have done some preliminary reasearch on the ZDDP being progressively reduced since API Service Category SF was superceed by SG and is now up to SM. There is a Posting in Virtual Mechanic on what Weight of Oil To USE IN OUR Starquest's. See the VM posting <a href="http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=94227&pid=921373&st=40entry921373" target="_blank">http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.p...mp;#entry921373</a> for this discussion. I have cloned my final post onto the BS Forum cuz it is viewed so much and you guy's should be aware of the API Service Category SM oil that we are using in our SQ engines. There is a LOT of controversy out on the internet about this. And a lot of people are REALLY PO'ed at the EPA. Even in Europe. I called a Komatsu Service Rep at Komatsu's corporate headquarters that I have worked with occassionally when I worked with Komatsu as a Field Service Tech. The guy REALLY knows his crap, he has been in the automotive/forklift industries for about 40 years. I specifically asked him if Komatsu's Genuine Engine 15W - 40, API Service Category CI-4/SL, CH-4/SJ, CF-2, CFoil could be used in a 1988 turbo charged, high performance 4 banger witout the problems of not having the ZDDP additive in it. He looked it up and said YES. This engine oil does have the ZDDP in it. I asked him what was the PPM concentration of ZDDP. He said that he didn't specifically know. BUT, he would get back to me in the next couple of days. I told him, from what I have been able to find out - the concentration should be right at 1200 PPM's. So for right now I have a jug of Komatsu's "Genuine Motor Oil" 15W - 40, API Service Category CI-4/SL, CH-4/SJ, CF-2, CF. Guess what? I have about 2300 miles on this oil change. Today I am dumping the Castrol High Mileage, 20W-50 oil and putting in Komatsu's oil. Maybe my lifters will now stop clicking and clacking. I just replace 'em about 6000K miles ago. So hopefully they are not TOO worn. BTW - for you guys that are overhauling your G54B engines - DO NOT USE API SERVICE CATEGORY SM OIL FOR YOUR BREAK IN. MANY, MANY posts out there about this. The general consensus is, use the Valvoline VT-1 Racing Oil - cuz it SEEMS to have the required amount of ZDDP in it. If you do not you WILL prematurely were out the tappets & cam lobes. The Valvoline VR1 Racing & "Not Street Legal" Racing Oils contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include LESS DETERGENTS (emphasis mine) than regular conventional motor oils. Cuz it's ONLY to be used for Racing and once the race is over it's DUMPED. And you guys that are running the Schrieder Valve Springs rather than the old worn out MITSU OEM valve springs - MUST be concerned about this - More spring pressure on the tappets and cam lobes. If you just think that you can just run out and buy some ZDDP aditive and throw it in your oil - WRONG!!!!!!! It seems just adding the ZDDP additive to your oil MAY not be beneficial to the engine. Cuz if you add too much you will start building up sludge in the engine. Ideal level of ZDDP is 1200 Parts Per Million (PPM). So you need to know how much ZDDP PPM is in the oil that you are going to use, and then find out how much ZDDP is required to achieve that concentration. There is some talk on the internet that going to 1300 PPM or greater causes sludge, and having 1100 PPM or less is not enough. I am going to clone this and put it in the BS Forum. It has much more visibility there. I have some family commitments that I have to do this week-end and I won't have any time to further research this MAJOR PROBLEM for us Starquesters. SEE <a href="http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/API.html" target="_blank">http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/API.html</a> for further info. For What It's Worth. KEN EDIT - use ZDDP in Google and find out more adout this BS that the EPA has pulled off on the guy's that have older cars. With all of the talk of motor oil lately, this seems timley. I found this Accel oil today that claims SF classification. And what is really good is that it was at Wal-mart for $2.17 per quart. http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll231/nomad1856/IMG_3660.jpg http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll231/nomad1856/IMG_3663.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Well you guys may disagree but, Walmart super tech oil FTW I've been running that oil for over 10 years without one issue. It may not be the best oil in the world but it has done it's job well in my cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 I'm with Fanta and Jeff on this one. Price is the #1 indicator to the type of oil people will opt out for, specially in todays economy. Heck, I use the cheap autozone brand or Coastal brand oils, pretty much whatever is on special. The trick is, to actually change the oil at the recommended intervals. I have not had any problems switching from one cheap brand to the other during oil changes. I just do them frequently enough, I don't wait for the oil to get black. Though I gotta say, I've never tried the Walmart brand one. I was tempted to buy the Walmart 15/ 40W for my diesel as its only $9.00 a gallon and it takes a whole 6 GALLONS to fill the thing!! I buy the Chevron brand, it's like $14.00 a gallon, that's a big price difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patra_is_here Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 man, readings ken's first post was like reading a post from an oil salesman. it should be printed out and given to students in critical thinking english classes to dissect. i'm going to file all this info away in my "this doesn't apply to me" category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ucw458 Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 I'm with Fanta and Jeff on this one. Price is the #1 indicator to the type of oil people will opt out for, specially in todays economy. Heck, I use the cheap autozone brand or Coastal brand oils, pretty much whatever is on special. The trick is, to actually change the oil at the recommended intervals. I have not had any problems switching from one cheap brand to the other during oil changes. I just do them frequently enough, I don't wait for the oil to get black. Though I gotta say, I've never tried the Walmart brand one. I was tempted to buy the Walmart 15/ 40W for my diesel as its only $9.00 a gallon and it takes a whole 6 GALLONS to fill the thing!! I buy the Chevron brand, it's like $14.00 a gallon, that's a big price difference. Try it, super tech isn't a bad oil. It's cheaper because walmart buys everything in massive quantities. Like I said I've used it for oner a decade and used fram oil filters every time. I never had an oil related problem. I don't believe the oil is the problem. I think lack of maintenance is the problem. Turbo cars have an extra glitch to them. Driving hard and just shutting it off before the turbo cools is just asking for turbo failure. The oil literaly cooks to death inside the turbo and turns into hard carbon buildup. That happens inside thelast inch of the oil feed line as well. So after awhile the oil feed line gets clogged and the turbo dies from lack of lube. I've seen it happen. I have a feed and return line from my parts car that are all clogged up from burnt oil thanks to the PO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted July 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 About a 9 months ago (After I posted the OP)I switched from using Castrol GTX 10W-40 in the late Fall, Winter and early Spring and 20W-50 in the late Spring, Summer, and early Fall to Castrol GTX Diesel 15W-40 and 20W-50 during the same time frames. Even though it is API (American Petrolium Institute) Service CI-4, CH-4, CF-4, CF/SL, and SJ which is ordinarily for diesel engines, it is also very good for use in automotive gasoline engines. It states this on the back of the oil bottle. I would state that I would only use it on INTERNALLY CLEAN engines because of the increased detergents. The back of the oil bottle also says, "Enhanced engine cleanliness helps extend engine life; superior protection from piston deposits, oil thickening and valve train wear, minimizing engine sludge formation through the use of viscosity improvers, ANTI-WEAR additives, anti-oxidents and detergents." Back before I switched, I called Castrol and asked them the concentration (PPM) of the ZDDP in the oil. It was right were it should be for minimizing engine valve train wear and keeping sludge to a minimum. I forget the concentration now, and I'm not on my computer now so I can't look up my notes. So if you guys want to use cheap engine oil go ahead. Me personally, I'll use the best oil that I can get for the application. Especially with our Starquests having the turbo, and the street racing, drifting and drag racing many of you put your Ladies through. Even though you change your oil frequently and it's still honey colored when you dump it, contrary to popular belief, all engine oils with the same API oil weight and API Service ratings are NOT THE SAME. You pay according to the quality of what you get. I have about 367K miles on my Starion's OEM almost virgin short block using the Castrol oils. One dirty old man's opinion. But opinions are like A-holes; everyone has one. For What It's Worth. KEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SOTTY Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 Killtodie is the go to man about oils. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOOSTED88tsi Posted July 2, 2010 Report Share Posted July 2, 2010 i get free oil changes. So whatever the higher ups won't notice inventory wise is what i use Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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