gwadd85 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 if i remove the balance shafts with the kit, would i need an engine balance?? removing the balance shafts would make it run like crap without a balance right?? Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 if i remove the balance shafts with the kit, would i need an engine balance?? removing the balance shafts would make it run like crap without a balance right?? Graham nah, not run like crap, just cause potential harmonic vibration issues if you rev it too high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustPaus_88TSi Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 It's hit or miss if you get the "buzzing shifter" at a certain rpm. I did not balance after I did a BSE, and saw no issues with an auto tranny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrazilBoy Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Can make the idle a little rough too. At least on mine it did. But it will rev like never before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwadd85 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Can make the idle a little rough too. At least on mine it did. But it will rev like never before... ok. what do you mean rev like never before?? and to chiplee, what rpm would be dangerous, isnt the limiter set at 6500 on our cars? i obviously wouldnt go over that. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiplee Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 ok. what do you mean rev like never before?? and to chiplee, what rpm would be dangerous, isnt the limiter set at 6500 on our cars? i obviously wouldnt go over that. Graham I think we kinda' settled on 4500 years ago. If it's a DD and you don't intend to rev over 4500 very often it should be fine without balancing. Above that it very well may just happen to be very close to balanced as is. Or it may be horribly out of balance. If you do get it balanced make sure you take your crank pulley, flywheel and clutch pressure plate to be balanced along with the usual rotating assembly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwadd85 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 yea, im not in the mood to strip the engine down and balance it. way too much time and money. i just thought if it required no modification, i would do it because its a cheap kit. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrazilBoy Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 ok. what do you mean rev like never before?? and to chiplee, what rpm would be dangerous, isnt the limiter set at 6500 on our cars? i obviously wouldnt go over that. Graham "Rev like never before" means it will rev to 6k a lot faster and this will get you to the optimum power quicker.. Keep it at redline for now. My motor is quite built so I hit 6k or 7k quite often... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) Bse in mine and ( Surprise!) only part balanced is my flywheel- I forget I have BSE in my car. No vibration that I notice. Now if the engine is apart I suggest a balance job. Dad Edited February 6, 2009 by Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwadd85 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 i really would like the faster revving and higher oil pressure of the BSE kit. but there is no way im gonna strip down a 88 motor with 75k on it just to do a BSE. and i wouldnt do the BSE without balance if i cannot rev past 4500 safely. if i wanted that i woulda got a deisel lol. well i guess i wont buy the kit, thanks for the quick responses everybody. Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwadd85 Posted February 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 ^^ dad, saw that comment after i already posted my last one. i could just get a fidanza + bse, that would make a quick revving combo!!! i dont think ill do it soon tho, as even balancing the flywheel is too much of a pain, and i dont have the money. i make 120 a week lol! Graham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I took about 8lbs off my flywheel- thats why it's balanced. Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 i really would like the faster revving and higher oil pressure of the BSE kit. but there is no way im gonna strip down a 88 motor with 75k on it just to do a BSE. and i wouldnt do the BSE without balance if i cannot rev past 4500 safely. if i wanted that i woulda got a deisel lol. well i guess i wont buy the kit, thanks for the quick responses everybody. Graham I asked the same questions and dug through a bunch of old posts when I did my BSE a few years ago. What I got from everybody was...it's a crapshoot. Most people don't have any issues, but if they do it's just a little vibration at certain speeds. It seems to vary from motor to motor. I did mine, and now I have a slight shimmy between 2500 and 2800 rpms, then it goes away until I'm back in that range. But it is very slight. My oil pressure seems better, and the motor felt immediately better...kinda hard to describe. Maybe because I replaced all the timing chains and guides at the same time. My only regret is that I didn't do it sooner. And the motor had near 170k on it when I did the BSEK. Still running fine. The toughest part of the whole thing was scraping the 20 year old gasket off the bottom of the block when I dropped the oil pan. Some folks will tell you to do the Tchains every 100k. Mine went a bit further, but the guides were worn to nothing, and I had a nasty pile of silt-dust-crud in the pan from them. I took my time and spent a cold weekend doing all this, but I'm sure could do it easy in a day now if I had someplace warm to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I did the BSE on my engine in 2005. The harmonics I have are at 800-900 idle speed and between 1700- 1800 RPMS accelerating and decelerating. Other than that the engine is smooth. At a stop light I keep engine RPM's at 1000 - 1100 RPMS with my foot - no vibration. I've got great oil pressure and I would do it over again if I had to. For What It's worth. KEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TurboRaider Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 The balance shafts wont affect the loads that the main and rod bearings see. The forces generated by the spinning of the crank and firing of the pistons is huge compared to what the shafts do to keep the entire block from vibrating. The purpose of the balance shafts is to increase passenger comfort levels. If you could safely rev to 6000 RPM before removing them you can still rev to 6000 RPM. Removing them will affect how the motor as a a whole vibrates. Things bolted to the outside may shake loose and or vibrate a bit and make noise. There is a effective HP gain from reducing how much in mass needs to be accelerated but in my experience its not huge, in the range of 2-4 HP. This is from my own testing and calculations. For my daily driver I built my new engine with balance shafts. I did cut the OD down slightly to account for my lighter pistons. I have driven the same vehicle both with and without the shafts and there is an obvious difference in the sound level of the motor. With the shafts the motor is a lot quieter. Some people may not notice or care, I do. A quite vehicle reduces fatigue on long, I’m ok with a nice exhaust rumble. If you have a sporty type car that’s more about fun and are willing to compromise on some aspects to improve others getting rid of them may be a good choice. My Raider was never about all out performance, it is a fun vehicle that I can take a long drive in with my wife and dog and get no complaints about it. At the same time it still goes pretty well with the turbo. Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speed racer Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 ^^i dont have the money. i make 120 a week lol! Graham Don't take this the wrong way but your gonna need some more income if your gonna play with this car.Are you a student?I'm sure there are things you can do on the side for extra dough.Easier said then done currently I def. understand. trying to rev to 6500-7000 with stock valve springs will do much more harm that removing balance shafts ever could. I removed the shafts in an 89 auto car and had a tiny bit more vibration but after a few days driving didn't notice anymore.If there is a huge vibration then you may have other problems. The balance shaft bearings going bad seems to be the death of these engines.Especially if the car has not been maintained well.By removing them your removing a week/failure prone link. think of it as a "piece of mind/reliability" modification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg_43 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 I did not balance after I did a BSE, and saw no issues with an auto tranny. Same for me. I did a BSE on an 89 auto and the car ran smooth as silk. But I had to pull them out. I would not pull out the bs just to pull them out. If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcrasta Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 These should be called 'counter-balancer' shafts. The Balancer shafts induce a vibration 180 degrees out of phase of the secondary vibrations observed in all Inline 4 engines. This cars have big bore and a long stroke for their displacement, so there is a 'whole lotta shakin going on'. As TurboRaider said, the Balance shafts are in there for passenger comfort. Removing them will not have a negative effect on the engine besides 'more noise, more primary and secondary vibrations (Because you have just eliminated the canceling out effect) will be felt. There will be some buzzing if you have a manual shift car. You may even break some exhaust parts if they are not properly aligned and given flex joints etc. You will not break your engine by properly installing a BSE kit. You will get more oil pressure and remove a lot of rotating mass (including shortening your oil pump drive chain, which is one less thing to adjust). I recommend them unless you absolutely need a glassy smooth engine (in which case you should get a v6 ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted February 6, 2009 Report Share Posted February 6, 2009 Read through this, it'll help... http://starquest.i-x.net/viewtopic.php?t=9...asc&start=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted February 7, 2009 Report Share Posted February 7, 2009 reving any 20 yr old engine to 6500 is asking for problems,, number one you valve springs are too weak to handle it and you'd not be makeing any power up that high any way with stock turbo and stock tbi system power starts to fall off quick above 5000 - 5400 to make power up high you need to do some work to the valve train,, bal shafts have nothing to do with any of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts