Roller Rocker problem

[Shelby]

it seems many are not looking at the actual profile,, the cam lobe is sharp on a sliper cam BUT the actual profile is not as sharp as you'd expect,, the contact area of a sliper rocker is a little over 1/2 inch what that means is at the max open point the lobe is moveing but the rocker is slideing or the valve is staying open untill the sliper contact point moves from one extreame to the other end of the slip pad and then starts it down it's closeing ramp

[Caliber308]

I don't know the last time you talked to Kelly but yes he will not make a cylinder head for you

 

I wouldn't like to see his expression if I told him your were speaking on his behalf

 

So, If Kelly has a solution to the "ROLLER ROCKER PROBLEM"... Why doesn't he chime in on this thread? After all, He is a long term member of www.starquestclub.com. I know he is because he advertises parts in the "Parts for sale" forum and i've purchased parts from him years ago on this site...... or are you his spokesperson who has never owned a car with a Roller set up????? Talk about someone speaking for Kelly............ I doubt very much that Kelly is casting 2.6 lt cylinder heads. Reworking them... Yes. Casting them.... NO.

 

CALIBER 308

Edited October 22, 2008 by Caliber308

[Indiana]

Cam tower caps are what determine rocker spacing, if there were non oem rocker arms it would be easy to machine off those caps to re-space the rocker arms if necessary. If the sweep range of the angles the rocker arm uses for a higher lift cam throws the rocker out of the ideal range then you need to change the length of the valve stem before trying to re-invent or modify a rocker arm and that would mean you wouldn't have the issues of the valve springs being too near to binding the coils. Double springs help valves from bouncing or slamming closed? Looking at other roller cams and similar height springs and cam lift on other proven motors would have been a starting point and I'd assume this was all part of what was done before time and money was wasted on testing. Just because our head is an old casting doesn't mean the valve train has to stay that way.

 

SO,

 

 

shims still suck and they sucked 3 years ago just as bad and they suck today and if you want to pick a topic to argue about with someone that you say doesn't have what they are talking about here I think you have made another mistake.

[chiplee]

I wouldn't like to see his expression if I told him your were speaking on his behalf,

 

What a chump. What have you contributed to this thread besides gloating that this is not a problem for you and kellydabiggerchump. Get lost.

[Tim_C.]

Yes, I agree. Lets all just try to contribute positive helpful remarks without getting too bent out of shape. Everyone has their experience to share, so it is great to hear it. I agree it helps a lot to hear from people who have set-up these heads before, and especially roller heads.

 

I have a heavy duty single coil and a dampner on my first set-up that James CNM sold. It looks like an old small block chevy valvespring. I have no idea exactly what spring it is. It was 125 Lbs at the seat. My valves were custom length , but all the length added to the top of the groove. It was .100 intake, and .110 exhaust of length added to the valve. Round groove valves, and a new marnal head with plenty of stem seal clearance. Another head used the HD springs, and they loosened up to below 90, and had more stem seal clearance than the dual coil set, and the stem seals hit at hi-RPM. I shimmed the springs, and it solved the stem seal hitting problem on that head with stock round groove valves and shims in the rockers. That was my first roller head with my own grind cam in it. My first cam, still running fine after 25K+ miles. I drive the car very hard, but it's automatic.

[jinx]

I have a mechanical cam that I know blows the OE cam away for general all around performance, but maybe not for hi-boost levels.

 

I hear ya..... errr.. thats a pretty bold claim.

which cam is this ?

where is this power needed most ?

Is this superiority based on peak hp, or.... ?

Are there numbers somewhere available to illustrate this ?

I'm thinking... this sounds like it'd be a popular cam, that must've made it to the dyno & strip at some point.... no ?

 

Also can an 'efficient' 54 setup produce standout results ?

 

I'm just saying good performance results aren't necessarily efficient, and the OE cam is inefficient.

 

Our quickest starquest here ran the smallest cam(stock), revved the lowest, ran the tallest gear and smallest turbo(of the 'faster' 54s). Totally against the grain!

I think thats pretty efficient and really impressive for what it is.

**Most importantly, eipquest conducted "extensive cam testing" - dyno & strip**

 

Torque is often overlooked, but a very decieving quantity.

 

you're an advocate of 7500rpm G54s, yet prescibe 'low' boost ?

Which one you reckon lessons engine life more (ie. wear) ?

[Chad]

Chanucy Espino ran an HKS cam (unknown duration/lift figures) to 9.51 at 149 in the 1/4 mile, and that was with a T-72 at 54 PSI. This was done in 1997, long before a lot of the current technologys/parts were available. He ran a TEC-II with PAF-Z software as I recall.

 

there are many ways to make big power. His is the fastest documented setup I know of. Some combinatins require a smaller cam to make max power, some require bigger cams, it's baised on what other components are used.

 

I'm sure if you used the exact build EIP used, your car would require the same stock cam to make max power. Assuimng you are not using their exact motor forumla, it's entirely possoble that other cams will work better on what you have now than the stocker they did so well with. It's about matching components, not just boltin on parts and hoping for a positive change.

 

There is no "magic" cam unless you specify a specific build combination. I belive Tim will share his build peramiters, where as others making claims on here are all secretive about their "magic" parts. No point in using their magic cam if you dont' have their "magic" motor too.

[marso]

This is an interesting thread I've learned some in reading it all but getting back to the original question. I bought a new mild hydraulic cam from Kelly not sure of which one anymore hell it could be a new stock grind for all I know I've never measured it. I used the 1.6 roller rockers with it and had absolutely no noise or problems whatsoever but I did lose some low end torque according to the butt dyno so I switched it back to slippers. For me it was a direct bolt on. I don't know how it would have fared in the long run though. I haven't heard what damage the rollers cause if any. The engine has 8.1 Wiseco's and Dad's Marnal with OS stainless valves, Schneider springs and the guide cut down for a higher lift cam.

[Indiana]

This is an interesting thread I've learned some in reading it all but getting back to the original question. I bought a new mild hydraulic cam from Kelly not sure of which one anymore hell it could be a new stock grind for all I know I've never measured it.

No matter what cam you use, if the deck or head was milled... -well scratch that, you need to degree that cam even with a different set of timing gears or even new gears and a different gasket etc you could be off 5 degrees. A cam was ground with the intentions of it being EXACTLY set up not SO-SO set up its that critical even the lash of your mechanical rocker arms if you had those throws the degrees way off so its up to you to have checked all this as the motor is being assembled. Ask the person you got the cam from about it.

[Metric-man]

So, If Kelly has a solution to the "ROLLER ROCKER PROBLEM"... Why doesn't he chime in on this thread? After all, He is a long term member of www.starquestclub.com. I know he is because he advertises parts in the "Parts for sale" forum and i've purchased parts from him years ago on this site...... or are you his spokesperson who has never owned a car with a Roller set up????? Talk about someone speaking for Kelly............ I doubt very much that Kelly is casting 2.6 lt cylinder heads. Reworking them... Yes. Casting them.... NO.

 

CALIBER 308

 

You know Caliber it's Ironic but you can help people that are only willing to be helped.

 

Tim is a moderator on this board and I'm not trying to bash anyone ..

 

I never said I was Kelly's personal spokes person.

 

Just because someone has the answer to your problem doesn't mean they have to tell you or show you how to solve it.

 

There are other things that need to be done for a custom cylinder head to work

Selling just a cylinder head to some that wants to go fast without taking proper steps to install it or matching with like components.

example: Tim c makes sure everything is refurbished or new .

 

I bought into Tim c's screaming banshee roller cam and set it up according to his instructions.. everything from the cylinder head casting to the rocker arms were new.

 

Now Tim c was very helpful with the setup and instructions. I didn't even need to use the 3/64 washers under the lifters because every thing was new and no slop when I assembled it or when I turned it over with a ratchet.

The thing I did notice is it was slamming those valves shut a little too fast, because the assembly was soo tall to match the angle of the 3000gt rocker arms with the tall ramps of the cam.

 

So needless to say, I waited out of personal necessity and it happens that others like you and Indiana bought the cam too ,

so I waited for your comments and results.

 

In the mean time I had contacted Kelly and Chris Viper and they shared in their confidence in their roller rocker experiments..

everything they have done to modiify the G54 cylinderheads in my opion is the RIGHT way.. I can not share these secrects with you because they are a means to literally put food on the table for Chris and Kelly.

 

The cylinder heads that Kelly and Chris developed are engineered in a diffent respect than how Tim c's Roller project worked out.

I still have Tim's setup sitting on a shelf and have never given or loaned it to anyone and it's still in a 5mil bag filled with lithum grease.

 

I think what Tim did was great 4 years or more ago.. but has it evolved quickly enought for everyone to be happy ?

[jinx]

Chanucy Espino ran an HKS cam (unknown duration/lift figures) to 9.51 at 149 in the 1/4 mile, and that was with a T-72 at 54 PSI......if you dont' have their "magic" motor too.

 

We don't have full details of Chauncys' complete setup... we're not 'loaded' as you

stated he is... we lack that level of R&D effort/expertise with the 54, and most of all.. none of us mere mortals are gonna pump 54psi into anything.

 

Thats why I simplified things and chose eip example straight from our dyno page.

Half the boost, half the turbo size, attainable parts, etc..

Very typical of what most of the high strung 54s run. Trying to keep it real here.

 

While I don't believe in 'magic', cams can vary tremendously in quality/performance.

That's why I ask for "numbers".... especially when you hear "blow away stock cam"

and its the "worst design" etc.... Nothin' like proof eh

 

Very few in G54 land actually perform direct comparison testing. In those rare

cases, the results are 'revealing' and the by-product is a standout performer.

I don't have the means, time or resources to optimize a particular setup, so I 'play

it safe' by sticking to proven combinations.

 

If *DM/Viper have something unique that produces exceptional results, I can

understand them being a bit secretive... but to what extent ?

Seems like it'd affect potential sales... unless they're not interested

In the big picture... hi po street slipper dyno'd enough hp/tq to satisfy 99% of us

[Caliber308]

You know Caliber it's Ironic but you can help people that are only willing to be helped.

 

Tim is a moderator on this board and I'm not trying to bash anyone ..

 

I never said I was Kelly's personal spokes person.

 

Just because someone has the answer to your problem doesn't mean they have to tell you or show you how to solve it.

 

There are other things that need to be done for a custom cylinder head to work

Selling just a cylinder head to some that wants to go fast without taking proper steps to install it or matching with like components.

example: Tim c makes sure everything is refurbished or new .

 

I bought into Tim c's screaming banshee roller cam and set it up according to his instructions.. everything from the cylinder head casting to the rocker arms were new.

 

Now Tim c was very helpful with the setup and instructions. I didn't even need to use the 3/64 washers under the lifters because every thing was new and no slop when I assembled it or when I turned it over with a ratchet.

The thing I did notice is it was slamming those valves shut a little too fast, because the assembly was soo tall to match the angle of the 3000gt rocker arms with the tall ramps of the cam.

 

So needless to say, I waited out of personal necessity and it happens that others like you and Indiana bought the cam too ,

so I waited for your comments and results.

 

In the mean time I had contacted Kelly and Chris Viper and they shared in their confidence in their roller rocker experiments..

everything they have done to modiify the G54 cylinderheads in my opion is the RIGHT way.. I can not share these secrects with you because they are a means to literally put food on the table for Chris and Kelly.

 

The cylinder heads that Kelly and Chris developed are engineered in a diffent respect than how Tim c's Roller project worked out.

 

What's the big secret???? If it works better than the options we have now, Why doesn't Kelly sell the reconfigured cylinder head and roller set up??? After all, he's a businessman. And we on www.starquestclub.com and other sites are his business. Personally, I would like to hear comments from Kelly and Chris. Hey, we don't need to hear their "secrets", Just a explaination into why their roller set up works better than what's available now??? No one here is trying to "steal" their ideas. The only way to put "food on their table" is to sell the product. If it is still in the R&D stages I understand. I'm very happy with the roller set up I have now. No valve float, no slamming shut valves, no unnecessary noise. But I did have extensive cylinder head work done by a bonified engine machine shop which was told upfront about the roller rocker set up and supplied with all the parts (roller rockers, roller cam, shims, HD springs and SS valves) that were to be installed. They must have set it up correctly. They set up the cylinder head to work correctly with the parts supplied. In the end it was myself that installed them. My comments are also meant to be a warning to members who think that you can just install 1.6 roller rockers and be done with it. There is a lot more involved., and I do mean a lot $$$$$

 

CALIBER 308

Edited October 25, 2008 by Caliber308

[marso]

No matter what cam you use, if the deck or head was milled... -well scratch that, you need to degree that cam even with a different set of timing gears or even new gears and a different gasket etc you could be off 5 degrees. A cam was ground with the intentions of it being EXACTLY set up not SO-SO set up its that critical even the lash of your mechanical rocker arms if you had those throws the degrees way off so its up to you to have checked all this as the motor is being assembled. Ask the person you got the cam from about it.

 

I would ask Kelly but he banned me from his site and won't talk to me. Don't know why but to each his own. I would degree the cam if I had a way to degree it properly with an adjustable cam gear. Which I don't have so links and marks for me.

[Caliber308]

I would ask Kelly but he banned me from his site and won't talk to me. Don't know why but to each his own. I would degree the cam if I had a way to degree it properly with an adjustable cam gear. Which I don't have so links and marks for me.

 

If your using AOL that might be the reason. I am also banned. Try and check on Trances site. Professor Quest might know about the camshaft seeings how he and Kelly use to be buddies.

 

CALIBER 308

[Chad]

We don't have full details of Chauncys' complete setup... we're not 'loaded' as you

stated he is...

 

My point was missed, of the "fastest documented cars", there are differences in in cams used. The fastest used an aftermarket cam, not the stocker. The fact that there are such large differences in cam use, it's obvious to me that the cam does not "make" the motor, but it can "break" the motor.

 

If you want documented proof, talk to chip. he did several dyno comparisons of different schneider cams. It was aobut a year ago. I seem to recall about 20 HP being picked up vs stock, but most of that power was middle to upper range. I dont' seem to recall it losing much of any power down low.

 

A lot of people put in big cams and feel a loss in the low end when really they lost nothing. This is beceause they pick up so much topend that it becomes a bigger difference between low-high so a percived loss is experianced.

[Tim_C.]

People always get my cam names mixed up. Metric Man did not have a Screamin'Banshee. That one is a mechanical slip rocker only cam. It must have been the Monsta'Banshee.

My Screamin'Banshee is the one I'm talking about. I've sold quite a few of them, and had only good reports. Don't know if anyone has dynoe'd it.

Jinx: "Our quickest starquest here ran the smallest cam(stock), revved the lowest, ran the tallest gear and smallest turbo(of the 'faster' 54s). "

 

So why doesn't everyone stay with a 12A and stock cam, and stock gears? Because you simply need to flow more charge through the system and not waste it. Flowing more means getting it through faster. The cars that rely only on torque will break drivetrain parts faster too. If you don't have a lot of money, don't make torque your main goal. If a very hi torque set-up runs faster than one with less torque and more HP, then the drive train is certainly getting stressed more to not last as long. That's a main part of my goals, longevity.

 

My engine will rev to 7500, but I rarely take it there. Even going all out, I won't go much over 6500 because the rest of my set-up isn't there yet to take advantage of the RPM the engine will safely go to. It is still TBI, stock exhaust manifold, 17C turbo at 12PSI boost. I've had it at 18 PSI a few times, and it does very well there too. That's how I get more safely. Like any good engineer, design it to run 20% higher than it will ever see, and it will last much longer.

 

We've had these discussions several times, and everyone knows certain people are sold on certain methcods. I'm not saying RPM is all a good engine build needs. I'm saying every engine can benefit from a torque and HP curve that goes higher than the stock set-up can. I take dyno readings with a grain of salt. They prove nothing but that test at that shop on that day gave those numbers. You can tune on that same day with that same basic set-up, but change any major part, and it cannot be compared straight across. The reason is this or that cam will work better with this or that application, so just because you get less peak HP, doesn't mean it is a bad cam design, it only means the cam doesn't fit that set-up as well.

 

Any engine type such as the G54B can get power in different ways. No one here is totally wrong, and no one here is totally right about their choice of build direction. I stand firm that the goal is to find the best cam that works for your set up, and try to get the best combination of parts that work well with each other. If that means you end up with a great torque monster and no top end, great! If it means you end up with a hi-RPM screamer, great too! One thing no one here will ever do is to say this set-up is the best way and the only way to go, so we really need to lighten up from our soap boxes, and not worry so much about proving the other guy wrong, but state our own experience from our own engine to the best of our ability. We can state other people's results too, and know they got there a certain way, but we can state our own experience much better.

 

Here is the main problem with all this back and forth 'this set-up is best' stuff: Each of us have our own goals for what we want to set the car up for, how we want to drive it, how much boost the build can handle, all of the parts variables, and how big of a budget we have to get there.

 

Metric man is right. The roller lobe snaps closed, and opens faster too. That is why the roller cam can stay at the fully open position longer and get much more power with the supporting combination of parts. That requires stiffer valve springs. My '87 with the big cam will puff your pant legs from 20' away. All that says is the valves are slamming shut fast. That's another reason I put stainless valves in it. Every part in the engine needs to be hi-quality, and the further into the engine you make improvements, the bigger the gains are in the end. That is if you are rebuilding. If I had a very low miles OEM bottom end, I would build around it differently, and actually a bit more in the direction of what Jinx is talking about.

[Indiana]

No one here is trying to "steal" their ideas.

B U L L C H I T that ebay SCUM BAG would get one and send it to CHINA to get over Kelly and Chris with your blessings in a heartbeat, if I was him I wouldn't tell ANYONE and I'd make them pay for it and then I'd only sell it to someone I trusted to keep their mouth shut and not to roll it over to anyone. This is the end results of what that buttlicker causes when he comes in here and everyone gives him the ideas to STEAL the products and COPY them and have that china crap brought over here and he is the ONLY one that benefits from it. You are all to STUPID to figure this out. Auto parts by WALMART.

 

Want to buy a crap header? You'd have a crap CAM if he could get one and don't you doubt it for a second.

[Metric-man]

What's the big secret???? If it works better than the options we have now, Why doesn't Kelly sell the reconfigured cylinder head and roller set up??? After all, he's a businessman. And we on www.starquestclub.com and other sites are his business. Personally, I would like to hear comments from Kelly and Chris. Hey, we don't need to hear their "secrets", Just a explaination into why their roller set up works better than what's available now??? No one here is trying to "steal" their ideas. The only way to put "food on their table" is to sell the product. If it is still in the R&D stages I understand. I'm very happy with the roller set up I have now. No valve float, no slamming shut valves, no unnecessary noise. But I did have extensive cylinder head work done by a bonified engine machine shop which was told upfront about the roller rocker set up and supplied with all the parts (roller rockers, roller cam, shims, HD springs and SS valves) that were to be installed. They must have set it up correctly. They set up the cylinder head to work correctly with the parts supplied. In the end it was myself that installed them. My comments are also meant to be a warning to members who think that you can just install 1.6 roller rockers and be done with it. There is a lot more involved., and I do mean a lot $$$$$

 

CALIBER 308

 

You know CALIBER going fast isn't for every one..

 

Some people can't control their foot and can get into lots of trouble.

 

I see why ... now that you mention it ...

yes there is a lot of other ingredients that go into making (assembling not casting) a cylinder head.

I think of the price of the parts and the time sourcing them, the labor and tools used to machine

and measure the different surfaces

With the complete machining and assembly you could figure 1500.00 to 2000.00

(that's if your counting in your own labor).

 

If you have someone do it for you you can figure about double that ?

Just for the polished, ported, gasket matched ,stress relived, back cut, swirl faced,

5 angle, cylinder head (did I mention flow benched ???)

 

But then it also needs at least a not too war torn bottom end, maybe fresh re-ring ?

 

and the radiator needs to be optimal the drive lines are gong to be stressed more, etc...

 

And to do all that you would basically give up your entire car

to a shop for how ever long they said they would need...

 

OR

 

Some one would just want a camshaft because that's all it is right?? :emot-bandwagon:

 

 

You might see Kelly or Chris on this thread but I doubt it. Both of those talented individuals are extremely busy..

CAL you might want to check *DM because a couple of days ago we lifted the AOL block on a trial basis.

We were getting too many spam offering from AOL addresses and for now that seems to have eased up.

 

I really don't think you'll get any free answers from Kelly or Chris about their cylinder heads,

You might see one if you lived in Calif... because they want to keep them exclusive for their clientele.

It's like a recipe and if you have a secret ingredient you don't share it because then it wouldn't be special.

 

I don't blame them If I researched assembled an tested a product that I found to be significantly superior,

to what is being offered..

I would guard it also.

 

I'm sorry I logged on here to tell you guys that I don't have the answer...

but I did tell you where to find it. :biggrinumbrella1:

[chiplee]

It's like a recipe and if you have a secret ingredient you don't share it because then it wouldn't be special.

 

That might fly if you're talking about a professional, but when you're talking about a chump who just can't imagine letting go of something that makes him feel superior it doesn't fly. He's afraid that if he lets his secret out of the bag that people will give him exactly the attention he deserves, none.

 

I don't blame them If I researched assembled an tested a product that I found to be significantly superior,

to what is being offered..

I would guard it also.

 

Kelly will keep his proverbial carrot on a stick because it makes him feel important, and that doesn't happen every day for him, and it surely doesn't happen on merit. His little man complex shines though in everything he does. He is a small person in more ways than one though.

 

I'm sorry I logged on here to tell you guys that I don't have the answer...

 

you should be.

 

but I did tell you where to find it. :biggrinumbrella1:

 

no, you told us who would continue to keep it from us as if anyone gives a crap. Any professional head builder could take our head and dump $2k into it and make it support 500+hp with the right turbo and the right boost. There's nothing magical about it, and nothing worth anyone's time in kelly's shop.

 

The f'ing stock cam supported 300whp and 380ft/lbs of torque in my car with a stock intercooler and small turbo. What is so special about a 250hp improvement over that? Come back when your magic results in a 700hp 2.6 and pretend we should feel honored to have your hero around.

[Tim_C.]

Ha Ha! I love the points of view presented on the web. I look at it like we are one big disfunctional family. Or wait, that is normal now-a-days!

 

Everyone has good points here. I agree with Chip that there are some situations and people that one would be wise to avoid.

 

My opinion about *DM and Chris Viper is if they are getting decent head set-ups together for a decent price, then good for them, and the community. Both of them know the easier you make it for the DIY type mechanics, the less customer service headaches you get. However, there is a line where I want the person to know what they are doing somewhat before I recommend they try it at all. Like Chip says, any good machine shop can do the job, especially Dad. There is no magical way or secret about it. The secret is to leave no stone unturned so to speak and address all the issues from the inside out. If the head needs set-up to make up for a loss of base circle on the cam, any good shop knows what to do. The big secret with *DM is he carries more clout with the vendor because he does things in quantity. That gets him better prices, and they can do bigger things cheaper in a production line type atmosphere, such as remove all of the seats, and set bigger new seats deeper in place to raise the top of the valve. Or, machine all the seats to allow the valve to sit deeper in the same seat. That is less desirable because it removes considerable life off of the head to where it can't be rebuilt again without replaceing the seats. A blank cam to make the grind with goes a long way too. So, if *DM is using a blank, then that is a very good plus. I can get blanks, but they were a bit too expensive before. My grinder says they are cheaper now, but quantity must be purchased.

Lets start a list of what is theoretically the best set-up to have. The list will have to start with a known good head with proper oiling mods done if needed, and no refurbishing needed, or what needs refurbished or new, already is. All surface planes are assumed perfect, and all machining to get the rockers working properly with the cam too. Those are things any machine shop can do for you. However, we should discover what oiling mods should be done to every head for optimal oiling. I bet some of us have some great ideas.

 

Here's my first few MODIFICATIONS but maybe not in order of priority for the ultimate street driven head with boost under 27 PSI and a static compression of no more than 8:1:

 

1. Loc-Tite the exhaust manifold studs with the serviceable thread locker of your choice, and intake for that matter.

2. Install the biggest exhaust valve your pocket book can handle, i.e. replace the exhaust seat with bigger for a bigger valve, not just machine the seat to accept a 1mm oversized valve. That option is better than nothing , but maybe not worth the expense of a bigger valve. We need to see what size seat and valve can fit into the exhaust port, and go with that size. My machinist said it could go at least 4mm bigger. Maybe do the same seat on the intake valve.

3. Bull-hog port above the seat (runner), and below the seat (chamber) to open up the area immediately around the valve and seat, to get more flow through the same sized valve.

4. Extrude hone the intake and exhaust ports, and port match to Chad's intake or equivalent, and Chad's header or equivalent. Of course we don't want to waste time with a puny Magna, or stock TBI. We want big streetable power here right? It doesn't have to be extruded as that is the most expensive, but it is the best way and we want the best for this head. Port matching needs the turbo exhaust housing too, but we are just talking about the head and directly connected items here.

5. Iguess we are talking titanium valves and retainers for strentgh and light weight.

6. A mechanical roller camshaft that opens the exhaust valve 4 degrees later, and holds it open 10 degrees longer. Leave the intake valve close to stock, and increase the lift on both about .030 to 445 or so. We can always raise the boost right? Less lift means less chance of hitting the stem seals, and it means less base circle loss if a stock core is being used to grind the cam from. The bigger issue is the proper spring tension. I have a .510 lift set-up, and a .499 lift set-up that both don't hit the stem seals, but I have a .465 roller that hit the seals with more clearance than the other 2. Why? The spring tension lost 15 lbs at the seat with the 6610 HD springs after the first hour of run time. I shimmed them to regain original tension plus some, and problem solved.

7. We could say to be sure and start with an Aussie M8-M9 head, but that really isn't necessary. Mega performance can be attained from our stock heads, or Marnal heads, etc..

8. It matters how far one wants to take this. Like Indiana said, we could redesign the rockers and cam towers. I really don't see that as being marketable because there probalby wouldn't be enough sales to substantiate it. But maybe....?

 

This list is just an attempt to see what people's goals are and to show us all that those goals can require very different actions to get there than the goal of the ultimate streetable head. Most of us don't have the cash for that.

[Caliber308]

B U L L C H I T that ebay SCUM BAG would get one and send it to CHINA to get over Kelly and Chris with your blessings in a heartbeat, if I was him I wouldn't tell ANYONE and I'd make them pay for it and then I'd only sell it to someone I trusted to keep their mouth shut and not to roll it over to anyone. This is the end results of what that buttlicker causes when he comes in here and everyone gives him the ideas to STEAL the products and COPY them and have that china crap brought over here and he is the ONLY one that benefits from it. You are all to STUPID to figure this out. Auto parts by WALMART.

 

Want to buy a crap header? You'd have a crap CAM if he could get one and don't you doubt it for a second.

 

Whatever all that was about :confused0024:

 

CALIBER 308

[Tim_C.]

I understand Indiana's point. If you start with a cheap Chinese casting, you can do a lot of work on the head and not have much money in it, but the quality would still be junk.

[marso]

If your using AOL that might be the reason. I am also banned. Try and check on Trances site. Professor Quest might know about the camshaft seeings how he and Kelly use to be buddies.

 

CALIBER 308

 

I'm not using AOL. I was banned for posting in a Kelly thread here about why his site was down. I just said I was having a problem getting on his site also. Then POOF!! I'm an outcast. Still don't understand why. Others who posted were banned too. Not all though. I guess he picked and chose who he wanted out. Dad posted there too but he wasn't banned but who in their right mind would ban someone with Alzheimers (he just turned 50 ). I don't want anything to do with PQ. He screwed me over on a purchase a few years ago. Not my type of person.

Edited October 26, 2008 by marso

[chiplee]

I'm not using AOL. I was banned for posting in a Kelly thread here about why his site was down. I just said I was having a problem getting on his site also. Then POOF!! I'm an outcast. Still don't understand why. Others who posted were banned too. Not all though. I guess he picked and chose who he wanted out. Dad posted there too but he wasn't banned but who in their right mind would ban someone with Alzheimers (he just turned 50 ). I don't want anything to do with PQ. He screwed me over on a purchase a few years ago. Not my type of person.

 

 

You got banned because kelly's sole purpose for having a forum is so he can have a place where everyone loves him and makes him feel like a big strong boy. If you don't love him, and don't make him feel like a big strong boy, he bans you. See how well it works out for him. It must be so comforting and reassuring to know that there's a place he can go where everyone will always get his back and join in when he bashes people he doesn't like. Too bad the only reason any such place exists is because "he's" in charge of who is allowed to be there.

[jinx]

My point was missed, of the "fastest documented cars", there are differences in in cams used. The fastest used an aftermarket cam, not the stocker. The fact that there are such large differences in cam use, it's obvious to me that the cam does not "make" the motor, but it can "break" the motor.

 

Got ya point. We'll just disagree if you consider that car a "comparable effort".

Now, I'm with ya on that last remark. Why ?

Look at the shape of the tq curves of the wide variety of setups on the dyno page.

They all take the characteristic 'nosedive' for the most part.

So it is no surprise to me the oe cam does as well as it does vs

 

A lot of people put in big cams and feel a loss in the low end when really they lost nothing. This is beceause they pick up so much topend that it becomes a bigger difference between low-high so a percived loss is experianced.

 

I don't believe numerous starquesters are 'imagining' this tq loss at all.

Think eip did, even tho confirmed by lotsa testing ?

What about the quickest(12sec) 17C TBI car for example - removed the 'performance'

cam to reinstall the oe.

All this talk of "huge top end gain" and "blowing away stock cam" etc... seems like

more of an illusion to me..... than the tq loss.

I haven't seen any ET or dyno numbers to support that.