No Ignition Power

[jeffball610]

After completing some work on the car, I took it out for a drive. Everything seemed to go fine until I backed into the garage. I saw some smoke from under the hood, but that is typical as the car continues to burn things off. I shut the car off and popped the hood. I noticed the positive battery terminal had touched the chassis, but there was no smoke, sparks, or even witness marks from it touching. I didn't think much of it until I went to start the car again to adjust its placement in the garage. Not only did the car not start or turn over, but all power was gone.

I've checked the usual places like the fusable links (I hate those things) and there seems to be voltage and continuity there. I haven't checked under the dash or column yet, but all of the  fuses in the fuse panel are good and working. I even replaced a few that were missing. I've looked at the service manual for areas of concern, but I'm not finding anything. I can't seem to find any place that would lead to a complete blackout of power with the key on. I do have power to the door lights and the dash only has a light for door adjar. No other lights, sounds, or indications with the key in any position. Also, the headlights are stuck in the up position.

Is there a "typical" location that would cause this? The battery is good and several locations have 12v. I feel like I'm missing something obvious, but so far all of my checks have turned up negative.

[psu_Crash]

Maybe it fried the ignitor box? That wouldn't make sense for everything to cook though. Since you grounded it to the body the return path wiring on the negative side could have been damaged too. You will measure 12V, but you may not be referencing the same ground potential as the battery. Can you hear the main relay pull in when you turn on the ignition?

Electrical schematics are available at starquestgarage.com I would focus on ground points if you are already seeing 12Vin places.  

Edited October 16, 2023 by psu_Crash

[TexasQuest]

Have you checked the black fuse link that goes directly to the positive battery terminal? 

[jeffball610]

I'm running out of places to look. All of the fusable links next to the battery test fine. The wiring to the ignition switch seems fine, but I don't seem to get a signal out. I have traced the power wire to the ignition switch, but nothing seems to "flow" out. The service manual doesn't always make sense and some of the wire colors are different. Does anyone have any ideas? I'm assuming it has something to do with the ignition switch or something in that circuit. Headlights work, but the motors do not. The door lights are on as well as the door ajar light, but nothing else lights up in the dash.

I haven't checked the MPI relay (I think we have one), but that has been an issue on DSMs in the past. It kind of controls everything. Many of the wire connector locations don't make sense in the manual and are not labled well. I'm lost. I shouldn't be, as I've wired an entire 4G63 swap with speed density and rewired an entire chassis. I'm not sure why this seems so foreign at the moment. 😕

[TexasQuest]

I would suggest checking all your grounding points. These cars do really weird things with bad/dirty grounds.

88_conquest_service_manual_-_group_26_-_electrical.pdf (starquestgarage.com)

[jeffball610]

I haven't worked on the car much due to weather and my other car taking up garage space. It is nice out today, so I thought I'd explore this more. I still have no clue what is wrong. As far as I can tell, the ignition switch should have constant 12v power from the WB wire. It does in fact have 12v, that is until you turn the key. I would think it should alyways have 12v and simply distribute it to the correct terminal to route power to the proper accessory. Am I wrong about this?

I tried to simply put 12v to the starter solenoid, and I could hear the gear pop out, but only once. I do have 12v at the starter, but perhaps the starter is bad? That doesn't explain why nothing else is working, but it's a place to start. I seriously need some help with this. None of this makes sense. I've wired an entire car from scratch and I'm still confused on this one.

[tux]

Could be solenoid?

[jeffball610]

15 hours ago, tux said:

Could be solenoid?

I checked the solenoid near the battery and swapped it with another in the panel. Nothing changed. I can try it again, but I don't think that's the issue.

Going back to how this first came about, I went for a quick drive and I was backing into the garage. I shut the car off and decided I needed to back in more. The car didn't start and all power went out. I popped the hood and saw my battery shifted and the positive terminal was touching the chassis. No fuses were blown. There was no smoke. Everything seemed fine. Just no power.

[jeffball610]

This is still an unsolved issue. I pulled the starter just to make sure it works, and it's fine. Even though I'm not seeing voltage come out of the switch like I expected, I can still turn the key to get ACC power to the windows.

There has to be something small I'm missing. I know in the DSM world, the MPI relay does a lot of things and without it (or if you try to modify around it) things just don't work. Is there a similar thing in Starquests?

If you were to turn your key and no electrics turned on, what would be your troubleshotting process?

[TexasQuest]

These cars have what's called an ECI relay. It's mounted above the ecu behind the passenger side kick panel. 

[jeffball610]

I haven't touched the car in months due to lack of motivation and moving twice. But now I'm in my permanent residence and I want this thing to run. Here's a refresher and "update".

I took the car for a drive and pulled into the garage and turned the car off. I decided I didn't back in far enough and tried to start the car. It had zero power to anything. I popped the hood to see the battery positive terminal was touching the chassis. I pulled the battery (which was no ruined) and swapped in another. I have door lights and the door ajar light, but no other lights or power. Turning the key to any position does nothing. All fuses and fusable links appear to be working. I have probed the ignition switch and things seem to be in order. All grounds seem normal. I have tested the starter, and it is also good.

What am I missing? Why would there be no power to anything? At this point I almost feel like it's an "immobilizer switch" or something weird like that. But even then I would have dash lights or something else. Where should I be looking?

Failing any resolution, the car will be torn down for a complete rewire. The eventual plan is an LS swap and updated wiring. This would expedite that process, but previous lessons have taught me to have a running and driving car before doing any mods. The car ran fine for the short time I had it, minus some idle issues. PLEASE help!

[jeffball610]

The car is finally in the garage, but it's still a giant mystery. I get no dash lights other than door ajar. I did notice that the windows always have power. Is that a thing? Typically power goes off after a period of time. Looking at ETACS, I think there's a timer that shuts off power.

In any case, I don't see any voltage in the ignition switch when turning the key. I have pulled the switch itself and confirm voltage coming in, although it seems to be closer to 10v-11v rather than the 12+ at the battery and other probed locations.

My initial feeling that it's somehow "immobilized" still seems probable considering the ETACS also functions as an anti-theft device. But I can't seem to figure out where to start. I've looked at the service manual, and the 88-89 manual listed definitely does not match its own diagrams for the ETACS, specifically the C34 plug with pin 15/16 being a ground or not, and pin 9 not existing, but also is for a door switch? It shouldn't be an issue, but I need to know what is actually accurate.

In order to "reset" the alarm or disengage it, do I need to have the hood, hatch, and doors closed? I think the manual says to disarm, you just unlock the door with the key. It's not too clear. I feel dumb for not know what to do, but it's just not clear. I'm sure there are great people here to help, but I'm just not getting anywhere on this particular issue.

[LizardKing]

If the positive cable was touching the chassis then more than likely somethings fried. Links, fuses, switches, relays, computer and wires. I know you tested some of these already but deserve a second look. 

 

On my 87 the alarm would turn off/on by turning the key to lock/open the door and holding the key turned till the alarm engages/disengages. 

Edited November 20, 2024 by LizardKing

[jeffball610]

I'll triple check things. All of the fusable links seem fine. I have power going ot the starter, but obviously it won't engage by turning the key. I have pulled it and it works fine.

All fuses in the panel seem fine. I've tested and swapped many of the relays. I'll give it another shot, but I don't know where to go after that. 

Even if the ECU was fried (it likely would have stopped running before I switched the key off) the engine should still turn over. At this point, I'm close to just ripping everything out. I'd rather not, as I'd like to have a running car to play with and to ensure it runs properly for the next owner (I plan to pull the stock engine/trans and LS/CD009 swap).

[TexasQuest]

I'm starting to think it is an ETACS issue, what your describing is kind of what an immobilizer does. These cars had ETACS issues, especially the 87-model year. Try swapping it out with another one and see if that solves the issue.

[nc_beagle]

Based on TexasQuest's response, I wonder if I have a slightly milder version of the same problem with the ETACS. I posted it elsewhere, but I've had the car die on the road then have zero power when the key is turned. But, I've also had issues with the alarm going off when I unlock the car with the key.

[jeffball610]

A few updates. The factory service manual linked on this site conveniently is missing a few pages that pertain to the ETACS. I'm not 100% convinced that is my issue, but I did make some small progress.

I pulled the ECU and the ECU relay, which Mitsubishi conveniently has a single screw holding it in. However, the get that one screw out, you need to pull the entire blower unit. I guess Mitsubishi recognized this and placed 2 small screws that allow the dash to pull away just enough to wrestle the blower out so you can get to the ECU relay 😕

Neither of those seemed to be my issue. I went back and prodded and probed every wire I could from the battery to the ignition switch again. I discovered that the fusable link for the ignition was only working intermittently. That would account for the odd voltage readings I was getting from the power wire at the igntion swtich. I can't find reliable data on what the resistance of that wire is or its amp rating. I just spliced in a heavy wire. After doing so, I got a good noise from under the steering column (what is that btw? maybe the fuel pump relay or something?) and the battery light lit up on the cluster. I turned the key and the starter clicked like the battery was dead. I turned the key again and got nothing. The battery light had gone out as well.

I checked my bodge wire and it seemed fine. I wiggled some wires and tried the key again. I got the battery light and the click again. Then nothing after that. I removed my wire, moved things around, but I could not get the battery light again. This all leads me to believe that there is a short somewhere, but it doesn't seem obvious. At this point, I'm ready to just pull the whole system out and replace it with a modern relay panel. I'd still have to trace wires in the loom to see if there is a short, but modern fuses and wires are a better diagnostic tool than "fusable links".

If anyone has some advice that hasn't already been suggested, I'm all ears. The car ran fine for the most part before this stopped everything. I want the car up and running to find any other issues while I prep the LS swap. This issue alone would prevent the car from running since it won't even trigger the starter. So either way, it needs to be sorted. I really wish this forum was more active or there was a better way to contact the "gurus" that can help with these things.

[admin_JAinsworth]

It may be a long shot but there is a large connector located under the battery. Make sure it is making a good connecton. I've had a similar issue and that was the culprit. I wish I could describe the location better.

Jimmy

[jeffball610]

I'm assuming this is the 3 wire connector. W, WB, and B wires. That plug is fine. I did find it odd that a huge black wire (normally a ground) goes in, and a small one comes out to power the ECU Relay.

I think my next course of action is just to replace every fusable link wire with something new. I feel like it's shorting out, but not "blowing".

[jeffball610]

This is beyond frustrating. I went through all of the connectors near the battery. I cleaned and put dielectric grease on every one. I installed new terminals on the main White power feed wires to redo what I already redid in hopes that something goes right. I reconnected everything and I got the battery light, power windows, clock, and the climate control all came on with a key turn. I checked voltages on the connectors before attempting to turn it to start.

When I turned it to start, the same thing. All power goes out. I hear a click that I assume is the starter, but now might be a breaker of some kind. Of course the wiring system doesn't have anything like this, but that's the sound it makes. I'm at a complete loss. I'll be ordering a relay panel tonight, but I'd rather run the stock system for now to find any other potential issues.

The only thing that is leading me any where at this point is that I see 10V on both sides of the coil with key on or off. I didn't see voltage on it at all until I turned the key, now it is there constantly, yet no other items in the dash have power. I have 13V at the battery and all other relay connections.

[jeffball610]

I just tested a theory. I disconnected the battery and turned the ignition key to drain any residual power. After reconnecting the battery, the battery light and headlights work. As soon as I turn the key to start, everything goes away as previously stated. I do hear a loud click that sounds like it is coming from the battery area. I swapped the starter relay, with no results.

[BuGG]

Have you tried the ign mod that gives additional + to the switch? I think Kev did a write up on this a few years ago. A pretty simple mod where you run a parallel 12v switched line into the ign switch. Edited December 17, 2024 by BuGG

[jeffball610]

I feel silly. It was the main grounding strap the whole time. I tested that and it came back fine. I guess it was partially corroded and couldn't carry enough power to start the engine, but enough to have accessories on. A new ground strap fixed it.

Now to figure out why it won't start. I'm digging into the fuel pump next. But at least this major (but silly) issue is resolved.

[TexasQuest]

Great to hear man, thanks for the update. I've learned from owning these cars is they will act crazy with dirty/bad grounds. 

[LizardKing]

Sometimes it's the simplest things that get you.  Perseverance will pay off.