Interior "Upgrades"

[jeffball610]

I recently purchased some manual seat belts from Steve at StarquestParts.net and I'm looking for tips on this and some other minor install parts. I know I'm doing something wrong, but I can't seem to figure it out.

Steve said he will get back to me with some pics on how to properly install these parts, but I assume some others would have some tips. The A-pillars don't quite fit right. There are some "nubs" on the manual pillars that don't seem to corrilate with anything else. The headliner is specific to the belts, but doesn't seem to be much of an issue. I'm keeping my auto belt headliner and the standard trim is holding it up. But the manual trim doesn't seem to fit at all. It's too long from what I can tell.

Next up are the door cards and how the belt passes through. The card itself has a cutout already, but it's far too large for the trim. I know you have to account for the leather and padding, but it still seems too large. Is there a template or a guide on how it needs to be cut. Also, the belt retractor needs two additional screw holes. The door has square holes for what I assume are plastic threaded fittings, but where can I source the correct ones? One a similar note, some of the plastic rivets to hold the door card to the door itself need replacing. Do we have a good source for those as well?

I'm also looking for the clips that attach the upper leather portion of the headliner near the hatch. Mine is missing two and I'd like to get the correct ones.

The last thing for now (until I get further into things) is getting the rear hatch to open correctly. The lever doesn't activate the latch enough to open. I have to crawl into the car and manually move the lever arm. I've tried adjusting the rods, but it doesn't seem to help.

Any advice, pics, resources, links, literally anything would be of great help. This is my first Starquest, so I'm still learning about all of the idiosyncrasies. I can post pics if something isn't clear. I might do a how-to for the driver's door once I get this figured out if it would help anyone else. (unless one already exists)

[GoldStar]

Can't speak for the manual belts, but MKS Motorsport has got a bunch of reproduction interior clips available:
https://mksmotorsport.com/product-category/body/

2 hours ago, jeffball610 said:

The last thing for now (until I get further into things) is getting the rear hatch to open correctly. The lever doesn't activate the latch enough to open. I have to crawl into the car and manually move the lever arm. I've tried adjusting the rods, but it doesn't seem to help.

Following for this, although once in a blue moon my lever actually works. Have you tried using the key?

[kev]

Yes, you will run into some issues on the A-pillar.   The auto seat belt cars had some extra sheet metal tacked in on the lower area of the pillar that prevents installation of the lower clip of the pillar trim.   If memory serves me correctly, I had to modify the lower mount of the  trim slightly to get it to fit correctly and, obviously, that lower trim mount wouldn't be used.   You do need the upper clip from a manual belt car to properly install the trim too.    I know I have photos of this but I can't access them at this moment. 

You will run into issues if you keep the auto headliner.  It won't mate right with the A-pillar covers.   If you swap headliners, you will have to cut off three 6mm studs on each side.    You will also need the b-pillar trim.   There is also a piece of sheet metal on the b-pillar corner that will need to be cut off and removed to accept the manual belt headliner and b-pillar trim.    Again, I have photos but I'm struggling to access them at the moment.  

Yes, the cards have the notch in the back of them for the manual belts but you DON'T cut the vinyl to the extents of the notch.   Measure the plastic insert clip on the manual belts and carefully cut the vinyl to size in the middle of the notch.   I actually don't remove any material, I slice the vinyl such that it can fold back and clue to itself on the backside for added support.   The insert clip then pops in there.  It is close to the size of the notch but is smaller.   Just take your time and think through it.    The upper door panel on a manual car has a catch for the belt to ride through it in the rear.  I'm assuming that is what you mean by the two additional screw holes?   That isn't really needed, to be honest.  If you have the catch, then sure go ahead and install it.  Just line it up where the belt crosses the panel, drill two holes and pop it in there.   

The clips for the rear vinyl headliner panel are specific.  MKSmotorsports sells replacements created via a 3D printer.  Headliner Panel Retainer Clips - MKS Motorsport

Mksmotorsports also sells door panel inserts via the same method  Door Panel Retainer Clips - MKS Motorsport

 

The issue with your hatch is most likely because the hatch isn't aligned with the body.  They tend to 'slide' themselves back with time.  So, it is trying to unlatch but the latch brackets are all wedged into the latch.   Also, the rear carpeted panel is known to get bent up and cause some interference as well.    Get your hatch to align with the body first.   If you still are having issues, remove the rear carpeted panel and take it out of the equation for now.  If you still are having issues, there are minor adjustments to the latches and latch brackets as well as the rods.

 

 

 

 

[kev]

Found some of them.  

Here is the modification to the door card.  Mark the cutout of the seatbelt clip on the card (it will be smaller than the cutout on the door panel itself, as you described).  

Here is how I cut the vinyl

 

Fold it back and glue it.  

 

Here you could see the difference in the upper panels between the manual and auto belts car.  I had one of each so I used the manual one for a template...but it's easy to simply eyeball once the belts are in jplace.  Note the manual belt upper trim needed to accept the belts!   That trim will interfere with the sheet metal on the upper rear corner of an auto seat belt car!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kev]

This piece here will interfere with the upper door panel trim on a manual seat belt car.   If you want to use the trim, it will have to be removed.

Here it is with the manual headliner and manual b-pillar panels:

The upper door panel trim near the manual belt upper latch will not let the door close until you remove the curved sheet metal above.   Note that this car didn't use the seatbelt clip on the upper door panel...it will work fine without it.  

 

 

 

Here are some views of the mounts.   You will need the upper door panel mounting clip.  It is one large clip in lieu of two on an auto seat belt car

 

The lower belt mount.  The tapped hole is there already on an auto seat belt car.  Just need the bolt (in fact, the bolt might be there as well...I forgot if it was or not)

 

The clear plastic to go behind the belt in the door is a nice to have...will prevent water from going on the seat belt mechanism.  

[kev]

I should have taken a lot more photos and did a writeup on the manual seatbelt conversion.   At the time, I was just trying to move my project forward and wasn't as diligent it taking detailed photos.   

I know I have some photos of the A-pillar mounts, at least on a manual belt car (the donor vehicle), but they are on a hard drive that I don't have accessible at the moment.   But if you have the proper upper clips for the manual a-pillar trim, it will make sense.  You don't use the lower clips.   

[kev]

To do a 'proper' auto to manual seat belt conversion, you need a ton of parts:

* Both manual seat belt mechanisms which include the belt mechanism, the trim clip that goes into the door card, mounting bolts (one on each end), and the upper latch.

* The rear corner upper door panel trim (the small piece that runs up the side of the window in the back) mounting clip with screws (zinc plated bracket shown in the photos above)

* The rear corner upper door panel trim (the small piece that runs up the side of the window in the back) - This is all you really need for the door panels themselves because the original auto seat belt door panels can easily be modified as shown in my photos above.   Although, I just remembered something; the 87 on up cars large upper door panel has a hole in it to accept the rear corner upper trim.  This will be visible with the manual upper door panel trim.   I did some vinyl repair on mine to 'close the hole'.    If you happen to have access to the main upper door panel on a manual car, it is beneficial to utilize them.   They will also have the belt guides on them, which is the next item below.

* The door panel seat belt guides with two screws each - not really a necessity, as seen in the photos above

* The plastic A-pillar covers WITH clips/hardware

* The manual belt main headliner (sunroof vs non-sunroof, as required for your car) INCLUDING the two side rails WITH side rail clips/hardware  - Note the rear vinyl covered headliner is not needed - it is the same between manual or auto belts

* Upper AND lower B-pillar covers (i.e. sides of the rear seat) - they mount the same as the auto belt covers.

* The clear plastic inserts for the door panels to keep water from getting on the seat belt mechanisms.  

* IMPORTANT: The seat belt latch on the driver and passenger seats depending on what year car you have vs the year of the donor belts car!   In my case, I used seatbelts out of an 86 with 88/89 seats - no issue.  But if you have 87 seats, the latch will be the wrong size.   There are also some differences on earlier model car seatbelts.    Before you do anything, make sure your manual seat belts 'click' into the latches on your seat!    Also note that on 87 seats, the seat belt latch is approximately six inches forward from where it really should be (I honestly don't know if it can be moved back or not, I haven't done a manual belt conversion using 87 seats).   You make the determination if that is acceptable to you or not...just make sure the belt latches before you go any further!

* 85/86 style center console tray

* 83-86 style power mirror switch with trim plate for the center console

* 83-86 style rear center console without the seat belt holes

 

 

This isn't the easiest of conversions, to be honest.   You need a lot of parts to do it correctly and modifications to the car body are needed.   Some people just leave all the interior trim go and not install the rear upper portion of the door panels.  This will allow use of the manual belts but the missing trim will be noticeable along with the auto belt track.  

[jeffball610]

Thank you so much for the info and pics. I ordered parts from Steve at StarQuest Parts. He forgot to include the upper belt clip on the door, but I think I have the rest.

I didn't realize the upper trim and the body were different on each car. I will make that adjustment to the metal.

My door cards have the cutout already there for the seat belt passthrough. It's quite a bit larger than the clip, so I'll just take my time just as you suggested.

I think the biggest issue will be the A pillar trim. I'll see if I can make a mount or adjust things enough to make it presentable.

The rear hatch seems to be that it's not aligning with the body. I just happened to notice this as I was leaving this morning looking at the back of the car. It has to be out at least a 1/4" and likely further. I'll see if I can adjust that and see what happens.

I've ordered from MKS before and I'll put in an order for clips. I'm not trying to make a concourse car here, but having something comfortable to ride in without squeeks and rattles is always more desirable.

If I make any discoveries or adjustments, I'll try to post them here. If someone has the ability to make a sticky of this install, that might be beneficial to others. Especially as the auto belts start to die, this might become more desirable or common to switch them out. Mine is purely for practical reasons with the elimination of the lower belt. And the auto belts suck anyway 🤪

[kev]

Sounds good.  I'll get you those photos of the A-pillar.   They are on a drive in my office which is in the basement.  It's just that I physically can't go down there at the moment, for I broke my leg.   

 

I have to collect all of these photos and see if I can develop a good thread on what is needed for auto to manual belt conversion.  I know that I don't have photos of the removal of the three studs on each side of the roof nor the removal of that plate at the rear upper doorway, but I might have enough to describe the process.   Plus, it's been around six years since I did this, my memory fades on some of the details (gotta love aging).

[TexasQuest]

On 5/2/2023 at 10:07 AM, kev said:

To do a 'proper' auto to manual seat belt conversion, you need a ton of parts:

* Both manual seat belt mechanisms which include the belt mechanism, the trim clip that goes into the door card, mounting bolts (one on each end), and the upper latch.

* The rear corner upper door panel trim (the small piece that runs up the side of the window in the back) mounting clip with screws (zinc plated bracket shown in the photos above)

* The rear corner upper door panel trim (the small piece that runs up the side of the window in the back) - This is all you really need for the door panels themselves because the original auto seat belt door panels can easily be modified as shown in my photos above.   Although, I just remembered something; the 87 on up cars large upper door panel has a hole in it to accept the rear corner upper trim.  This will be visible with the manual upper door panel trim.   I did some vinyl repair on mine to 'close the hole'.    If you happen to have access to the main upper door panel on a manual car, it is beneficial to utilize them.   They will also have the belt guides on them, which is the next item below.

* The door panel seat belt guides with two screws each - not really a necessity, as seen in the photos above

* The plastic A-pillar covers WITH clips/hardware

* The manual belt main headliner (sunroof vs non-sunroof, as required for your car) INCLUDING the two side rails WITH side rail clips/hardware  - Note the rear vinyl covered headliner is not needed - it is the same between manual or auto belts

* Upper AND lower B-pillar covers (i.e. sides of the rear seat) - they mount the same as the auto belt covers.

* The clear plastic inserts for the door panels to keep water from getting on the seat belt mechanisms.  

* IMPORTANT: The seat belt latch on the driver and passenger seats depending on what year car you have vs the year of the donor belts car!   In my case, I used seatbelts out of an 86 with 88/89 seats - no issue.  But if you have 87 seats, the latch will be the wrong size.   There are also some differences on earlier model car seatbelts.    Before you do anything, make sure your manual seat belts 'click' into the latches on your seat!    Also note that on 87 seats, the seat belt latch is approximately six inches forward from where it really should be (I honestly don't know if it can be moved back or not, I haven't done a manual belt conversion using 87 seats).   You make the determination if that is acceptable to you or not...just make sure the belt latches before you go any further!

* 85/86 style center console tray

* 83-86 style power mirror switch with trim plate for the center console

* 83-86 style rear center console without the seat belt holes

 

 

This isn't the easiest of conversions, to be honest.   You need a lot of parts to do it correctly and modifications to the car body are needed.   Some people just leave all the interior trim go and not install the rear upper portion of the door panels.  This will allow use of the manual belts but the missing trim will be noticeable along with the auto belt track.  

Excellent write-up, this should be stickied. I was contemplating the manual seatbelt swap until i found out all the little things to do it correctly. In the end I just replaced the driver side seatbelt track assembly and kept the auto seatbelts.

[obsolete]

Thanks a lot for all the great info, @kev. I hope your leg is healing well.

I'm going to have access to a manual belt parts car next week and I'm hoping to be able to pull everything I need to convert my '88. One thing I've never done before is remove a headliner. Do you have any tips? Hopefully it's fairly straightforward.

If you'd like to collaborate on a how-to, I'd be happy to contribute any pictures and info needed.

[techboy]

Headliner removals aren't too bad. You just have to remove everything that touches it. The pillars, the rear view mirror assembly, and the rear vinyl cover. I have a solid roof car, so I'm not sure about the sunroof, but once that stuff is out of the way it'll drop fairly easily.  You can pull it out the hatch of course.

[obsolete]

Thanks! Is it glued to the roof at all?

[kev]

I found a few more photos.   These were from an 83 that I pulled the A-pillar panels and headliner from at a junkyard.   Sorry, the photos are poor.

 

This is the lower A-pillar trim clip.   Note that this cannot be used on an auto-seatbelt car for there is a reinforcement plate in the way:

This is the upper clip which will be needed to install the A pillar trim on an auto seat belt car:

When you remove the philips head screw and clip, this is what you will see.  Make sure to remove that white square plastic insert!   The holes are there on an auto-seatbelt car but that is it.   Not sure why I didn't take photos of the clips on this site which were much better viewable.

This car had an unmolested door panel barrier.  But notice the plastic tray that goes behind the seatbelt mechanism.  Get those white inserts for the seatbelt mechanism in the door too!   

 

For the non-auto seatbelt headliner, these are the clips for the side rails (2 per side).  You need these!  In this case, it is just a sheetmetal screw into the body...no white plastic insert.  Again, the auto seatbelt car will have the holes for the sheetmetal screws making this part easy.   But in this area, there will be three M6 studs that need to be cut off.   BTW, yes, that was a factory sunroof on an 83...pretty cool!   Too bad it ended up in the junkyard.   

 

I thought I had more but this is all I could find.  I remember spending several hours and the junkyard pulling all types of little clips and inserts off of this car.   It still had so many useable parts on it but when I went back two weeks later for more, it was crushed.   

[kev]

I found some more.   Sorry, this is so disjointed.   After looking at these photos, I remembered more needed parts that I missed in my list a few weeks ago.  

Headliner.   Notice the grab bar on the passenger side.  If you look closely, you can see that the lower part of the A-pillar looks different than the red 83 shown in the post above. 

Fuzzy picture but you can see the two clips for the headliner side rails

 

B-pillar covers....they are different than an 87-89.  These are from an 86.  Don't forget the coat hangers.  As said above, the lower portions are different too (not shown).   

 

 

 

 

Here are the headliner side rails and A-pillar covers (ignore the beige items)

 

This is just a photo of two sets of manual seatbelts that I had.  One was from an 83, the other 86.   I ended up using a combination of the two.   If memory serves me correctly, I used the straps from the 83 but the mechanism from the 86 (The 86 mechanisms were a slightly different design.   

These are the brackets for the uppermost portion of the door panel.  Yes, there are white square inserts behind these that you need too!   

In my post above, I forgot that there are actually two brackets needed.  The larger one and the smaller one below (although, the smaller one may be the same from an auto seatbelt car...I don't remember off the top of my head).

Center console pieces.  You need that tray that goes where the seatbelt levers were.  You also need the power mirror switch and trim around it.   The switches appear to look the same but the mounting holes are different between an auto and manual belt car!

 

[kev]

It took me years to acquire all of the parts needed to do this swap and technically I'm still not done because I've been looking for a better set of the lower B-pillar pieces that go next to the back seat.  Mine have a few rips in them.    Every time I thought I had enough parts pulled from junkyard cars or acquired from members here, I realized I forgot other parts.  I know that I pulled items from three different cars, I bought a bunch of items from a member hear in Columbus (drove eight hours that day to get them) as well as bought individual smaller items from other members on here.   

I don't have enough photos to put together a complete tutorial and, after looking at my own pictures, my mind is a little hazy on all of the little details.   Obsolete..if you decide to capture photos, I'd be happy to help put together a good thread.  

kev

 

[kev]

22 hours ago, obsolete said:

Thanks a lot for all the great info, @kev. I hope your leg is healing well.

I'm going to have access to a manual belt parts car next week and I'm hoping to be able to pull everything I need to convert my '88. One thing I've never done before is remove a headliner. Do you have any tips? Hopefully it's fairly straightforward.

If you'd like to collaborate on a how-to, I'd be happy to contribute any pictures and info needed.

Yes, it is easy.  The hardest part is removing the rearmost portion (vinyl) without snapping all of the clips (slide it forward)  Although MKS sells 3D printed replacement clips if you do.   Once the vinyl piece is out, there are just two philips screws at the back.  Remove the sunvisors and the doom light/mirror assembly and the headliner comes right down (same process for any year).  

 

[obsolete]

Thanks again for all the great info here, @kev. I got my parts; all the fasteners I pulled are in individual labeled ziploc bags, and the ones that the previous owner had already pulled before I got there are all mixed together in another bag. I seem to have everything, at least I haven't found anything that I'm missing yet.

The square plastic inserts for the A-pillar trim are really hard to remove without damaging them! I managed to get one of the four out cleanly, the rest I broke, or were already broken. The white plastic inserts for the seatbelt mechanism in the door were tough too; I got one of those out intact, and figured that was good enough. Since I have one good example of each, I can 3D print replacements for both of them.

I tried to pull the belts out of the reels to inspect the webbing, but it seems like they're stuck. Is there a trick, or is something broken?

[kev]

I honestly don't remember how to remove the webbing from the mechanism....sucks getting old.   You can see the aluminum straps that I put in the mechanism to keep it from springing all the way back after the webbing was removed.   I really think that it was a simple as puling the webbing to its extents...but I might be incorrect.

Yes, getting those white inserts out is a pain.  A good pair of pliers to grab it on the sides and slowly wiggling side to side.  Sometimes with a little help from a small flathead screwdriver.   

I loved pulling parts from these cars in the junkyards.  It's too bad that they are practically nonexistent in the yards anymore.   

[jeffball610]

I've got mine installed and functioning. The headliner has room for improvement and the A pillars are not mounted. I'm looking for a solution to these two issues.

I don't have a manual center console and need to unplug the connector so the warning lights stay off. All of the panels fit just a bit differently and need persuation to clip in.

I think the most difficult part was just getting the auto belts out. The super long section under the door plate was a pain, but the clips in the headliner area sucked a lot. It takes patience to make this all work, and it won't fit perfectly even if you have perfect parts. Anyone wanting to tackle this needs to understand the challenges that come with it. I was thinking it was much more straightforward than it was. Mine functions well, but it won't win any beauty contests. At least I didn't have to make any permanent changes other than trimming the metal for the B pillar area.