tjs91tsi Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 I have an 88 Starion with Wiseco 8.5:1 pistons, non jet head with 1mm os valves, 1gen maf, stock turbo and stock boost levels. Car has always idled really well and run nicely. A few months ago my car started stumbling on high boost, I checked fuel pressure and it was perfectly within spec. I assumed secondary injector on its way out. A few weeks ago, she started dying on me, running rough. I hooked up a labscope and my primary and secondary injectors were clearly almost dead. I swapped in a spare 88 primary injector and it started idling perfectly again, running great except for the stumble up top. So I ordered some 650/950 trilogy injectors, installed them and now it idles like complete garbage, misses under part throttle, but runs decent at wot. I swapped the injector clips around and it seemed to idle a little better being richer but hardly acceptable. I looked at the spray pattern, noticed they are very narrow, almost like squirt guns. Did some research on them and turns out that's a problem with aftermarket injectors. Some people have good results, others don't. With some ingenuity, I remounted the stock primary and new trilogy secondary and she runs great again and now nicely up top. wt....? Is there any way to get these aftermarket trilogy injectors (delphi?) working properly? WIll resetting the tps/isc help at all? Do they normally need to tune it with a maft or afc? Any help or suggestions? Thank you, Tyler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 (edited) WIll resetting the tps/isc help at all? Do they normally need to tune it with a maft or afc? Maybe and yes. Crank up the base fuel pressure to help with the lean idle, than lean out the mid and wide open throttle with a tuning system. I suspect a peak and hold injector driver box would do wonders for those injectors, maybe to the extent 650-950 would not be the preferred size. But no one will ever try that. Edited September 8, 2013 by StarquestRescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted September 8, 2013 Report Share Posted September 8, 2013 If you want to run a peak and hold you'll have to remove the factory injector resistors. Otherwise you've created a REAL complex problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidjc Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 You got lucky, (2) of some of the best tuners just gave you some insight. GL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuze Posted September 9, 2013 Report Share Posted September 9, 2013 (edited) Before you get too far, check the wiring, look at everything that connects to the TB mixer. You can change parts all day and not fix the problem if the harness is coming apart or if the wires are cracked, broken, or corroded. Just speaking from experience, I had to resolder almost all the connectors on mine. Good peace of mind. Also with an Eclipse MAS, it's hit and miss. I've had MAS's go bad on me. An AFC makes an big difference but you really need a wideband O2 to tune it. (If nothing is wrong, you can get good results with an AFC, they are easy to use). Doing a TPS/ISC reset will get rid of a lot of headaches. It may look a little complex on paper, but it's not too bad. I also run Trilogy's and they are fine. Spray patterns in a TBI car... Those injectors are shooting at the bottom of the intake like a carb... it may not be as critical as on a port injected motor but don't anybody flame me for that one. Good luck. Edited September 9, 2013 by Fuze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexasQuest Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 Yeah check the injector clips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMeyerhoff Posted September 10, 2013 Report Share Posted September 10, 2013 not just the clips, test the supply voltage also. The stock injector wiring has a LONG path... and all of these cars wiring is prone to corrosion. That can add up to enough lost voltage to affect how the injector works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjs91tsi Posted September 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 Thanks for the advice guys. I really thought they were just drop ins. That's pretty aggravating as this was supposed to be the stock daily and not the tuner car. If i had a maf-t or safc, I would've probably just got slightly larger injectors to begin with. I doubt it's a voltage or clip issue since it runs great consistently with the stock primary and new trilogy secondary injector on it, only crappy with the new trilogy primary. I did a voltage drop test and found some resistance on the ground side of my maf and tps and repaired it. I was the main ground under the battery. I will double check the voltage supply though. I replaced the injector clips when I first got the car 5 years ago, but I am planning on changing them again as these seem a little cheesy and flimsy... Tyler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuze Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 I used to have a daily driver Conquest, my first one, it was a daily for about 7 years... that's how I know about all these problems, lol. Driving it a lot will bring out all the gremlins, but once you deal with them you can have a nice solid car.... sort of. You'll always wonder what's next though. The nature of the beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted September 11, 2013 Report Share Posted September 11, 2013 When using Delphis, you will need to up the Fuel Pressure. What is your Fuel Pressure (with the Delphis) at Wide Open Throttle? Idle? Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted September 12, 2013 Report Share Posted September 12, 2013 i realy doubt you will ever see proper fuel atomzation with those injs ,, they used to talk about poor fuel air distribution to the center cyls with the oem intake,, just how do you think the air fuel will ever get close to being even when the fuel is shot into the intake in a small narrow stream , those injs are designed to spray directly onto the intake valves not up stream in the intake you could have a better chance with haveing the injs spray directly on to a plate or surface directly under the tips and have the spray splattered in all directions rather then directly into the intake , it'd take some trial and effort to find the proper distasnce from the inj tip to cause a good splater mix also a hoter intake would cause more vaporization then a cold one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuze Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 Mine dropped right in and ran the car just fine, better than the good stockers I had. My fuel pressure is around 45 at idle, stock FPR. I run a 800cc and a 1000cc, also ran a 650cc primary, all Delphis.I have a MAF translator with 3.5" Corvette MAS, I have no idea how it would run without that because tuning it is necessary if you change sizes. I can put the A/F ratio right where I want it for the most part, with this setup. Just my .02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vbrad511 Posted September 13, 2013 Report Share Posted September 13, 2013 I put a set of TT's in a while back and thought the car ran worse, but I really don't drive it that often. It did seem to get a bit worse, then one day last week I went for a ride on the highway and it developed a miss. I thought for sure I'd popped a head gasket. Turned out spark plug number 2 had puked out it's insulator...just gone. As I was toying with that I noticed the vacuum hose for the FPR was broken. I changed that plug and replaced the vacuum line and it's been running fine. No complaints on the injectors now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speed racer Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 I got a set of trilogy injectors on an engine I got from a guy wanting to do a v8 swap.not sure which is the 650 and which the 950 though as stupid as that sounds.forgot or wasn't paying attention when I was taking all the crap apart and there is not clear decisive id on tem.one has a sticker around it with trilogy turbos on it in red...the other says the same in black.the ends of each has 6 tiny holes..on the red lettered injector the 6 tiny holes look a hair bigger than the black ones so id guess its the 950cc for use as a secondary.Im cleaning my stockers and reusing tem.got a set of injecotrs from lower shores and my car doesn't like them nor does it like the trilogy injectors much.I have no desire to get a maft pr a gf mas.just seems like a mega headache.for that headache i'd rather just make the leap to MPI conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuze Posted September 16, 2013 Report Share Posted September 16, 2013 (edited) .I have no desire to get a maft pr a gf mas.just seems like a mega headache.for that headache i'd rather just make the leap to MPI conversion. Dude a MAF-T is plug and play, super easy. No comparison to the complexity of setting up MPI. All you need is a wideband 02 sensor to see the real A/F ratio. Edited September 16, 2013 by Fuze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speed racer Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 maybe later.for now I just want this mofo somewhat driveable.Which triglogy injector is which?primary/secondary?just/need..want a simple answer which seems impossible to get here.And as far as complex goes I think I can handle a mpi conversion.couldn't be much worse than FANUC and Motoman manufacturing robots/PLC's.really have no interest in taking the stock TBi system beyond daily driver.if works great..if not oh well.try something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor_Drift Posted September 17, 2013 Report Share Posted September 17, 2013 (edited) Lol had the same problem using trilogy 850's with my 86 and i went to megasquirt and now i tell it what to do and it obeys. Screw 80's electronics but Good luck. Edited September 17, 2013 by Doctor_Drift Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) maybe later.for now I just want this mofo somewhat driveable.Which triglogy injector is which?primary/secondary?just/need..want a simple answer which seems impossible to get here. If you feel that way, contact Trilogy and ask them Bill Edited September 18, 2013 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted September 18, 2013 Report Share Posted September 18, 2013 (edited) Dude a MAF-T is plug and play, super easy. No comparison to the complexity of setting up MPI. All you need is a wideband 02 sensor to see the real A/F ratio. You can lead a horse to water.........That doesn't always mean that he is going to take a drink Bill Edited September 18, 2013 by Caliber308 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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