4CFEDFDS Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 I have been messing with my quest for like week now and cannot get it to start. I took the engine apart(was a junk yard engine in running shape) and put new bearings and put new gaskets on everything. Well i got it in the car and everything hooked up and it wants to start then does not try. I can smell fuel and hear the injectors spray and it has spark. If i pull the injector clips off it tries harder and almost starts but cant. I already checked the timing and it is good. Thinking the injectors may be leaking bad but it still should start up. Also thinking it might need new plug wires but it has new plugs. Could the tps being out of adjust ment make it not start? I know it has an aftermarket fuel pump which works but think it might be working to well and flooding it. Any tips? Also has a 1g mas and think that could be causing(bad maybe) it but is there any way to test it? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Phil Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 take off you OVCP and watch the injectors while someone cranks it. See how much is pouring in. If too much it wont light. You may have an injector stuck open and are actually flooding it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 Yeah, unplug the injectors and crank it and see if it starts. Also, if that doesn't work, just start unplugging stuff until it starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) always,,always use a timeing light to check timeing ,and does the dist set in the normal position,, if not posible the cam timeing is off also wet plugs from messing arround will stop an engine from runing even after you have fix'd the oreg problem Edited October 6, 2008 by Shelby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted October 6, 2008 Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 If you haven't solved the problem yet, and you question some parts (like the 1G mass air sensor), just unplug it. The car will start with pretty much nothing connected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4CFEDFDS Posted October 6, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2008 I did time it with a light. I have not got a chance to mess with it more but will try the stuff you guys said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 If it almost fires after pulling inj clips then you know it's flooded. All indications point that way. I don't think anything but a pre 87 car will start without a mas hooked up. I know mine won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 does it have compression? what is it? you have the distributor 180 degrees off? Pull out the number one spark plug, bump the starter until you fell pressure building in the cylinder, turn the motor over by hand until you get the crankpulley to TDC, now remove the dist. cap and see if its pointing to the plug wire that goes to the #1 cylinder. If not you have the dist. out of time and need to go back and review how to do that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89Steve Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 does it have compression? what is it? you have the distributor 180 degrees off? Pull out the number one spark plug, bump the starter until you fell pressure building in the cylinder, turn the motor over by hand until you get the crankpulley to TDC, now remove the dist. cap and see if its pointing to the plug wire that goes to the #1 cylinder. If not you have the dist. out of time and need to go back and review how to do that ^^completely agree. I couldnt get my rebuilt motor to start up for a couple days because of this problem. even though the distributor mating marks were lined up something was still messed up -- it was firing way too retarded. i pulled the ecu to get it fired up and then when it started running quickly plugged it back it (that way the injectors fired). I later came to find fuel was spraying in too late and was flooding the engine. If the ecu trick doesnt work and you think it could be the distributor timing (mating mark isnt always right your best bet it to go to TDC and pull the cap), its easy enough to set it a click forward or behind and see if that helps. good luck man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf87Conquest Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 If you have wet plugs...change them...it will not fire with wet plugs no matter what you do. Cleaning fouled plugs usually is a waste of time and effort. Make sure you have the distrib timed in correctly. TDC on #1 and rotor points at #1 on the cap....good to go. Double check the electrical connections..clean, tight and correct. The pick up in the distrib is where the ECU and ignitor box get a tach signal...the ECU uses it to fire the injectors, the ignitor to modify ignition time within certain parameters. The injectors fire...it should be ok. No signal...it won't start. It sounds dumb, but check that you have the correct firing order...you'd be surpised how often that happens. The correct order is 1-3-4-2. 87 and up cars MUST have the MAS hooked up to start. Won't hurt to make sure it's hooked up correctly. Again, clean and tight connections. Coil case and ignitor box case need to be well grounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4CFEDFDS Posted October 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Well started messing with it today and put new wires on it and tried a different coil and nothing. I took the plugs out and turned it over and it sounds like there is no compression??? Think the cylinders my be washed out or something. Everything was good when i tore it apart and put it back together and i used a lot of assembly lube. I poured some ATF down the plug holes to build some compression and sprayed the old plugs with brake clean to dry them out and almost fired then quit. It has fuel and spark and the timing it set with a light and this car refuses it start. I have not had this much trouble with my Rx7's and they are more picky. Spent like a month just trying to get it going. The injectors are not leaking either. Anybody local want to take a shot at helping this quest an giving me some tips(will pay). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAinsworth Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 It's been said a couple of times, but if the plugs were wet, change them. Have you pulled the ovcp (over the valve cover pipe) leading into the throttle body and looked to see if the injectors are leaking? If all else fails, you can bring it to my house, I'll get it running. Jimmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 So, you have spark and fuel? You can smell the fuel in the exhaust pipe? When you take the coil wire off the distributor and let it rest on the inner fender, it sparks to the fender visibly? If yes to all these, and you check compression and it is good and even, the ONLY problem is timing. If you have fuel, spark, and good compression, take the distributor out, and set the engine to #1 TDC (make sure with a thin screwdriver in the plug hole. Then insert the distributor with the detent lined up with the rib on the shaft at 12 o'clock. It will start right up unless flooded, just unplug the injectors or floor the throttle while cranking to clear it out, leave the ECU plugged in, and let 'er buck. It will work with spark, fuel, and proper timing. These are simple cars. Also, Edde said you can't unplug the mas and start the car. Well, I've done it on my 88, my friend's 89 and another friend's 87. It works, there's a 10 second closed loop mode, plus after that the "limp home" mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 (edited) Pull the Spark plugs. Disconnect the injectors and coil wires. Turn over the engine in short bursts. Install new Spark plugs. Reconnect injector and coil wires. See if it fires now. If not, recheck the spark plugs. Are they wet? If they are, and you have spark, you have one or both injectors wide open. Also check the oil for fuel contamination.If it's thin or has a strong smell of gasoline, change it and the oil filter out at least three or more times. CALIBER 308 Edited October 14, 2008 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 every ones forgeting the ovious,, DID you have the rocker arm shafts off the head,,if so,, the lifters most likley are holding the valves open or enought of them are as to cause a no start,, any time the rocker arms are unbolt'd the lifters expand,, sucking in oil,, now when you go to bolt them back down they are over pump'd and hold the valves open,, sure they will eventualy leak down but only if they are fully open when the engine stops spining and the valve is open,, beleave it or not most of the time an engine will stop turning in one of two spots , thismeans it will never stop in a position to have all valves held open the lifters are simple to colapse,, incert a wire intot he end and press down on the assy, wipeingoil off as it seeps out,, when empty you can depress the assy over 1/8 inch easily ,, now your ready to go back togather and the valves will all be close'd and you will have comp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcrasta Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 (edited) Where in MD are you located ? Quite a few of us local . Im in DC> I also have a S4 (Fc3s) PM me you contact info I can talk you though some things to check.. Edited October 14, 2008 by Dcrasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4CFEDFDS Posted October 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 (edited) I am in Annapolis. Well i did take that pipe off and the injectors are not leaking. It has spark since i had a plug laying around and took the wires off and pluged it in and spun the distrubtor and and ut had spark. I have taken the injector clips off and un flooded it many times as well as cleaned and let the plugs dry the plugs were new when i put the engine together.(why ruin new plugs if that is not going to fix it i think). I am going to try new plugs any way but i smell alot of fuel(flooded) as soon as i try to start it. I dont have lots of time to look at it and weekends are the only time i can really fool with it. I just want to get this thing going. I have some ATF in the cylinders now and going to let that sit and will mess with it wednesday. I did have the rocker arm shafts off(lubed the cam) so i guess i will check that too. Thanks Edited October 14, 2008 by 4CFEDFDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Buy a compression gauge, they are around 25.00 and see what you have in those cylinders. Yes will all the plugs OUT it won't "sound" like nothing but a big electric motor. If you put the timing chain on wrong if could have no compression. No or too little compression and it will not start. There is no way to guess about what your compression is and since you say that is a rebuilt motor you should have never even attempted to start it up until you knew what the compression was in the first place. You do that way before you even put on manifolds that way if there is an issue you don't have all that to remove, no coolant to drain no oil getting in the coolant if you have to pull the head etc. and this is one of those reasons you used assembly lube as you put it back together. If it has no compression now I'd pull the valve cover and look at each rocker arm when the cam lobe that moves it is at the base that you can barely move the rocker arm and that no valves are being held open. Even if you didn't remove the rocker arms you can you took the cam out and if you have hydraulic lifters then they are now all too pumped up and not allowing the valves to close, and they won't either until you remove them and bleed them. If you have the proper tool you can do this WITHOUT removing them from the rocker arm all you have to do is remove the valve cover. The tool is show in this link: http://millerspecialtools.spx.com/Detail.aspx?id=459 Its like a tiny drill chuck on the tip and it holds that .5mm hard wire, you get two tools and many wires. The wire isn't hard and snaps it will bend somewhat. You have to gently push the wire into the rocker arm hole and feel for the center and then slightly depress and while doing that do not be pushing on the rocker arm cause it tightens up the valve and makes it much harder to release it. If the rocker arm is holding the valve open then its easier to loosen the tower cap and take the pressure off the lifter then it bleeds easier. When the wire is in and you have the valve open you can then push the rocker arm down maybe 1/8" a few times over and over and that will push the air out and/or bleed it. Crank the motor over and repeat if you think they might still be too pumped up. You can check the compression again with the valve cover off. You will see a very tiny hole at the tip of the rocker arm and it may be covered over with dirt or oil or even clogged but you cleaned and checked all that when you rebuilt the motor right so those aren't clogged? http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/lifter01.jpg then again if you have mechanical rocker arms sorry, maybe someone else learned something from this and it likely that your cam timing is off from the timing chain not being on correctly if you still have a compression issue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcrasta Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 (edited) The Rotary mechanic in you is showing LOL.. ATF will not help in this engine unless the rings are shot. IF they are you will need a rebuild anyway. This is how I would approach it. 1: Timing - Best way requires a little effort. Remove the valve cover and rotate the motor clockwise until the 'roll pin' for the cam gear is at 11:58 (slightly ahead of straight up). The timing mark on the crankshaft should be at -0 degrees. If this is incorrect you have to correct this by walking the cam chain. 2: After this is verified, check the distributor position. There is a dot on the gear shaft that should be indexed with another dot on the housing. The distributor rotor should be pointing at '10-oclock'. 3: Replace the valve-cover and distributor cap. 4: Rewire the distributor --2.6 liter SOHC Turbo L4 the firing order is as follows: 1-3-4-2 5: Make sure the distributor pickup is connected to the harness (Barrel connection). connect all the induction plumbing. verify the mas is correctly connected. I would also remove the connection to the Secondary (Green) injector to make sure its not incorrectly connected as the primary. The car will start and idle with just the primary. Report back let me know if you have gotten through this list and what you have observed. Edited October 14, 2008 by Dcrasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 The Rotary mechanic in you is showing LOL.. ATF will not help in this engine unless the rings are shot. IF they are you will need a rebuild anyway. If it does start. It will take a week before it stops smoking :hmm3grin2orange: CALIBER 308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4CFEDFDS Posted October 14, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Yea about 7 or 8 rx7's i have them down to an art. But i will take that vavle cover off and see what i can do with those lifters. I set the crank to 0 degrees and set the cam pin to like 12:00 wheni had it apart. I had the wires wrong like a week ago but since then i have figured that out. I have done the ATF trick once before to my 88 rx7(thought i had a stuck seal) and boy did it de bug the neigborhood. It smoked as bad as my 93 rx7 with bad oil and coolant seals. I will try all this stuff wednesday and update this and hopefully i can get this thing going by this weekend so i can drive it to my shop and fix the front end and take it to a car meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dcrasta Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 (edited) Yea about 7 or 8 rx7's i have them down to an art. But i will take that vavle cover off and see what i can do with those lifters. I set the crank to 0 degrees and set the cam pin to like 12:00 wheni had it apart. I had the wires wrong like a week ago but since then i have figured that out. I have done the ATF trick once before to my 88 rx7(thought i had a stuck seal) and boy did it de bug the neigborhood. It smoked as bad as my 93 rx7 with bad oil and coolant seals. I will try all this stuff wednesday and update this and hopefully i can get this thing going by this weekend so i can drive it to my shop and fix the front end and take it to a car meet. Remember, turn the crank clockwise. Rotate until the roll pin is just shy of 12:00 (slightly before like 1-2 degrees if you can visualize). IF the timing mark on the crank is not at 0, and you have to go slightly past 12 to get to -0 on the crank, your cam is late. Hopeing thats not your issue but if you have never done this particular engine its very easy to install the cam chain with the cam late. (unless you have the mitsu chain with the plated links, and know where the dots go -blah blah-) Hopefully you have the factory manual (i have a link to a downloadable one in my sig) Edited October 15, 2008 by Dcrasta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4CFEDFDS Posted October 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 (edited) Well i think today i am going to take a stab at it again. If that timing chain is off a tooth is there a way to move it back withouth taking the engine apart again? Since if i remember right it was right before or right after 12 at 0 degrees. Think i am going to try to bleed those lifters and crank it over to make sure all of the fuel is out of the cyliners then put the new plugs in and try to fire it up again. Also going to throw my compression testor on ther(every rx7 owner has at least one) and see what that is showing. Edited October 16, 2008 by 4CFEDFDS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 There is a way I've done it and shelby has a post about it somewhere. That cam pin on most engines should be slightly before 12. If it's dead on or after 12 that's a problem. I moved the crank about 5 off from TDC (whichever way you need) then walk the chain over the cam gear one tooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4CFEDFDS Posted October 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 Well i took the valve cover off and the pin is at like 1 o clock. Not good now i need to figure out how to get it where it needs to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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