40 miles on NEW motor, I think I have a rod knocking

[jwrape]

There was a good reason the dowel pin was added, you get that extra hp and torque from the 88 increases and the flywheel can turn on the end of the crank and all years bolt holes in the flywheel are the same SLOPPY holes. Bolts that have something sliding back and forth cause them to flex and twist and come loose and its just worse on aluminum wheels cause it chews them all to hell and that causes a gap and loose of surface area to hold against the bolt head. Did you pry on that flywheel yet? Even just loose bolts that barely come loose cause that noise and you pushing in and out the TOB causes it to change.

 

Did you put the mains in by the book words or by the book pictures? The grooved inserts go into the block but the pictures show them in the caps which is wrong.

 

Just 40 miles is more than enough to have a knocking rod if it has low oil supply because the grooved inserts, depending on the brand, have larger openings and you may not have yet had enough miles to really eat the bearings.

 

You can see about those here: http://www.b2600turbo.com/thrust_bearings.htm

 

See the insert, this was put in wrong and if you only look at pictures in manuals you'll assemble your motor this way and kill it

 

Now imagine you put together a motor and have those installed by the book pictures, you experience rod knock and upper silent shaft failure and you draw some assumptions that there are some design flaws of the engine, faulty service manuals with reused pictures from the 70s Mitsubishi engines that did use mains with full groove inserts (grooves in both halves) You have people with Arrows and Ram50s and the rest and they form a group and gossip gets passed around for years and years and you get what people think why silent shafts need to go. If you knew this was happening in the 4g63 2.0s you'd know they changed the oiling paths and bearing surfaces way back in 1985 but our g54b didn't get anything, it was to die out 2 years later you think they cared? no but 2.0 still use shafts they just don't like the fact its a belt drive and the belt when worn and breaks can take out the timing belt but you don't hear them complaining about bearing failures do you? No, just belt failures and that's lack of maintenance and your problem not the motor design. There are others, like the one about the intake manifold and the "high" volume oil pump, the Jet valves causing cracks (that one makes me roll) they have sucky mechanical rocker screws and very complictaed carburetors and they changed the valve seals in the late 80s to Viton but you will hear how they "burn" oil cause someone still uses the wrong old valve seals from the old gasket kits and not know any better so you can't wonder why nobody wants this motor these days do you? and its all from ignorant assumptions.

 

You remember how you put those in? One reason I take all those pictures is so if someone later asks I can look cause I can't remember everything later

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM003333b.JPG

I put them correctly per the Starquest S.O.S. manuals

I used them throughout my build. But I remember those bearings having different size holes and I matched them up on the block... It's all good on those.

[Caliber308]

I put them correctly per the Starquest S.O.S. manuals

I used them throughout my build. But I remember those bearings having different size holes and I matched them up on the block... It's all good on those.

 

Try the little things first, before you go tearing into the engine again. Like Shelby and I said: Check the clearance on your valve cover again. Mine made noise, intil I cut away a lot more material from under the cover with the ARP Head studs. If it needs more material cut off you can use a Dremel tool. Just make sure afterwards to flush out the valve cover of any metal shavings.

 

CALIBER 308

Edited April 8, 2008 by Caliber308

[Fanta]

There's a pic of a properly cut baffles valve cover

 

Wouldn't that be some ish if thats really all it was?

 

Better safe than sorry though

[jwrape]

Try the little things first, before you go tearing into the engine again. Like Shelby and I said: Check the clearance on your valve cover again. Mine made noise, intil I cut away a lot more material from under the cover with the ARP Head studs. If it needs more material cut off you can use a Dremel tool. Just make sure afterwards to flush out the valve cover of any metal shavings.

 

CALIBER 308

 

 

Yea, once I go ahead and verify the Main bearings and re-install the Rod bearings that are in the mail today, I will investigate the valve cover more.

Where is that trimmed pic of the Valve cover? Is that in the S.O.S manuals somewhere? I will go search there and see

[Fanta]

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/index.p...post&id=108

 

You may just have to trim your's a lot better thats all

[vbrad511]

On a side note, early in the thread people were suggesting possible junk in the head from the last bearing failure. Good advice there, but what about the oil cooler? Did you flush that out really good?

[jwrape]

On a side note, early in the thread people were suggesting possible junk in the head from the last bearing failure. Good advice there, but what about the oil cooler? Did you flush that out really good?

Oh yea, definately. I flushed EVERYTHING. And now that it has run 40 miles, I drained the oil, refilled and then dropped the pan, so the entire motor is flushed twice since starting. It should be good and clean, I also have a STRONG magnetic oil plug as well. So far, so good.

[jwrape]

Got my bearings from Dad(Randy) yesterday. They will go back in on Tuesday. Also gonna trim that VC even before starting it again...

[jwrape]

Got my bearings from Dad(Randy) yesterday. They will go back in on Tuesday. Also gonna trim that VC even before starting it again...

Dang it! I ordered the wrong size bearings. I didn't remember correctly what size I needed. I ordered .20 over and it should have been .10 over. Another week down the tubes.

 

BUT I did check the main bearings and they look good.

[livesTSI]

Car looks good dude. sucks youre having to deal with all this right off the bat though.

 

and the piece from the valve cover was indeed to clear the arp's. it couldve been done a little nicer, but it worked lol

 

we'll just blame this "Jeremy" you speak of...

 

[jwrape]

Car looks good dude. sucks youre having to deal with all this right off the bat though.

 

and the piece from the valve cover was indeed to clear the arp's. it couldve been done a little nicer, but it worked lol

 

we'll just blame this "Jeremy" you speak of...

 

:hmm3grin2orange: Thanks, but I know you know the feelings that I am having but I am just glad to see the bottom end isn't the issue this time. I will figure it out somehow. :character0285: Correct bearings should be here Wed. and Tuesday they will go in. I hate to see it all together just waiting on those bearings. Wish the Post office was faster. It will eventually come back to life and get me to the Showdown

[jwrape]

So the knocking is definately coming from the top rear of the head.

 

The knocking I last reported and then proceeded t take the bottom end back apart and check all the bearings and subsequently replace the rod bearings for safety. Well the knock is still there. BUT it is definately coming from the top of the rear of the head. Either it's the rockers hitting the vavle cover or I have a lifter that's incredibly loud. I am driving it to work tomorrow. I am praying I get there in one piece. I don't think it is hurting anything but it is a loud noise at idle and it definately sounds funny.

 

I still haven't trimmed the valve cover more than the other pics shown before but that will have to wait till next week. I need to break in the motor before going to Macon for the showdown. Wish me luck, I'll need it.

[Caliber308]

So the knocking is definately coming from the top rear of the head.

 

The knocking I last reported and then proceeded t take the bottom end back apart and check all the bearings and subsequently replace the rod bearings for safety. Well the knock is still there. BUT it is definately coming from the top of the rear of the head. Either it's the rockers hitting the vavle cover or I have a lifter that's incredibly loud. I am driving it to work tomorrow. I am praying I get there in one piece. I don't think it is hurting anything but it is a loud noise at idle and it definately sounds funny.

 

I still haven't trimmed the valve cover more than the other pics shown before but that will have to wait till next week. I need to break in the motor before going to Macon for the showdown. Wish me luck, I'll need it.

 

Well, At least you learned a valuable lesson. Try the little things first!!!!!!!P.S. Just another piece of advice. Dont drive the car intil its fixed...... That means, no noise what so ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

CALIBER 308

Edited April 23, 2008 by Caliber308

[jwrape]

Well, At least you learned a valuable lesson. Try the little things first!!!!!!!P.S. Just another piece of advice. Dont drive the car intil its fixed...... That means, no noise what so ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

CALIBER 308

Yea, I knew someone would say that. :biggrinumbrella1:

[Komeuppance]

Sounds like a lifter to me. Just rebuilt two of these things... lifters are LOUD if they are not pumped up.

 

-Robert

 

*wink*

 

Over two weeks/4 pages and lifters have not been pulled out and flushed and pumped up?!?!?!?!?! You'd rather pull the pan and replace the bearings than pull some measily rocker arms?! Dude. Come on!! You're kidding me. I'm hoping I missed the part where you said you did flush the lifters... someone point it out to me.

 

Suuuure it had been assembled, but that doesn't mean things can't happen to it while sitting.

 

Head was on an engine with a spun bearing... aka bearing crap pushed into the oil galleys... aka possibly blocking off oil to lifters.

 

-Robert

[psu_Crash]

My new engine has a little tick to it seemingly from the top end but nothing quite that loud. I just brushed it off as lifter noise. I also only have about 20 minutes of less than 3K RPM run time on it, but I double and triple checked EVERYTHING so it should be good. These posts scare the @#$! outta me! Going for a test drive tomorrow and praying all is well ...

[travs87tsi]

that missing piece of valve cover is probably from where it was used with arp studs. also the oil will have a metallic sheen from the new bearings. i cant tell for sure from the viseo but it sounds like the top end to me. maybe the lifters have not pumped up.

 

yep

[jwrape]

Ok, so what is the procedure to pull the lifters? I know how to get the rockers off. How do I fish out the lifters?

[Chad]

99% of the time they just fallout. If not, a little tap on the rockers will dislodge them. Get them out, soak them in diesel (factory recomended method) or a oil compatable paint thinner like mineral spirits. This way they are full of fluid, not air bubbles. Then carefuly put them back in, keeping them upright to prevent any air from getting back into them. I've used a probe or tooth pick before to fish out any stubborn bubbles, look down into the lifter, if you see any air, get the bubble out.

 

Also, there are little weep holes inthe tops of each rocker, directly above each lifter, it's the size of a sewing needle, they are often blocked so any trapped air has no where to escape to. Clean those out, a small paperclip is about the right size. these weep holes being blocked is the most common reason for suddenly noisey lifters that used to be quiet.

[Chad]

I once had one that needed pulled on with pliers, that is fine as long as you don't scuff the surface that mates to the valve top.

[Shelby]

in the FAQ there use'd to be a thread about how to install the rocker arms and not have the lifters all fall out, many use tape or finger tips from rubber gloves to hold them in place

side note,,the lifters have to be install'd, almost empty of oil (unless what is in them is very thin) if you install them full of oil you will not beable to close the valves and end up with no compression,,

if there is not enought oil to them to pump them up and alow them to self adjust,,you have a problem with oil supply to the hyd lifters,, if thats the case it does not matter what you do you will still have taping noise once the engine is runing and warm'd up

 

the lifter should be able to be press'd and have it return to extend'd position on it's own befor it's install'd ,it will fil up with oil as soom as the engine is runing and oil pressure is up

Edited April 23, 2008 by Shelby

[jwrape]

in the FAQ there use'd to be a thread about how to install the rocker arms and not have the lifters all fall out, many use tape or finger tips from rubber gloves to hold them in place

side note,,the lifters have to be install'd, almost empty of oil (unless what is in them is very thin) if you install them full of oil you will not beable to close the valves and end up with no compression,,

if there is not enought oil to them to pump them up and alow them to self adjust,,you have a problem with oil supply to the hyd lifters,, if thats the case it does not matter what you do you will still have taping noise once the engine is runing and warm'd up

 

the lifter should be able to be press'd and have it return to extend'd position on it's own befor it's install'd ,it will fil up with oil as soom as the engine is runing and oil pressure is up

So I can pull them out, drain them totally and then re-install them empty and then start the motor and they will fill up? Correct?

 

I will check FAQ

[jwrape]

I have read the S.O.S. manual on the lifters but I have to remove the Valve springs to get the lifters out. To do that I would need to inflate the cylinder with air, correct? So i need to buy that tool to put compressed air in the cylinder to close the vavels so I can remove the vavle springs correct?

 

 

ANOTHER QUESTION: Shouldn't my lifters pump up if I just run the motor?

 

How do i know this is a non-pumped up valve?

 

How do I know I am not gonna do all this work and this isn't the noise? In other words how to I know if a lifter is not pumped up?

 

I already did a lot of unecessary work to the bottom end, how do I know I am not diving into more unecessary work?

 

Is there a way to test them?

[Whiplash]

You do NOT need to remove the springs. Just the cam tower. They should pump up. While working at the dealership years ago. When a new car came in off the boat we would sometimes run it around the expressway to pump them up.

[Fanta]

yeah, you're springs are fine and have nothing to do with the removal. Just remove the cam tower/rocker assembly, and be careful as your little lifters will want to fall out all over the place ( as in once you start lifting you want to get it off and upside down ASAP )

 

You can't really "drain" them. Like Chad said, diesel or mineral spirits will work to more or less dissolve and run out whatever might be in them, and reprime them. You'll see little bubbles coming out while this is being done. ( You only need about 1cup of diesel ). I've never seen nor heard of anything about testing them. I think they're either good, or obviously toast.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Fanta