40 miles on NEW motor, I think I have a rod knocking

[Whiplash]

On the Plastigague, I know I put it on the bearing and then torque it down and then pull it off, what am I looking for once I do that? A change in color or shape? How does that stuff work. Never used it before, but that is evident. :character0285:

 

To use plasticgauge(pg) the bearings and crank must be clean. Put a strip of pg on the crank and torque the cap. Then remove the cap and remove the pg. Lay the strip of pg on the listing that came on the pg package. It is in widths. Compare the pg to the listing on the package. I have the long version on how to use at work. I can post it monday if needed.

[Dad]

What flywheel?

 

any chance the bolts are loose- wrong bolts?

[TurboRaider]

That is a strange contact pattern. All bearings bed in to some extent so you will always see some polishing in, I but that pattern is a bit too consistant on all shells.

 

I would mike the cank to make sure it does not have a pair of high spots from an improperly dressed grinding wheel. Measure it across the center and at theedges of the crank pins.

 

And as another member pointed out make sure they are not the wrong sized inserts.

 

Kevin

[jwrape]

What flywheel?

 

any chance the bolts are loose- wrong bolts?

Factory Flywheel, no chance. They are thread locked and torque and re-torqued.

[jwrape]

Ok, I plastigauged the first #1 bearing. Here is what I found. It seems that it has .076mm or .003 in. of clearance per the gauge.

Check the pics. I will post the other 3 as I go

Here is the bearing right before I gauged it

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/IM002530.jpg

Now after

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/IM002531.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/IM002532.jpg

Here is the meter

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/IM002533.jpg

 

What do you think so far. I will be back witht he rest shortly????

[jwrape]

The #2 Bearing is just like #1, MAYBE a touch smaller clearance possibly .051mm, .002 in. on one side but still about the same as the #1 bearing. No pics cause the camera erased them for some reason. No biggy.

[Whiplash]

Use the plasticgauge the other direction. Going side to side only. Put the plasticgauge in the center only. It's normal the have more clearence at the parting lines (ends of the bearings).

[jwrape]

Use the plasticgauge the other direction. Going side to side only. Put the plasticgauge in the center only. It's normal the have more clearence at the parting lines (ends of the bearings).

CRAP!!! I thought I was all done... Son of a ****

 

Ok, gotta go re-do it....... :character0269:

[jwrape]

Well, #4 is .051mm, .002 all the way across. Looks good

[jwrape]

Ok, I re-did all of them... All of them hovered around .051mm, .002in.....

Is that good. I am assuming that's good. The only one that really showed more ware than the others was number 1 and I know the noise wasn't in the front of the engine. SO I think, unless someone says that's too much clearance then we have ruled out the bearings, but I will still wait for the new ones from Dad to replace these on Wed. or Thursday. But I will be back up and running by Monday again.....

 

The Question still is where is this coming from???? Could it be the transmission? Like I said the flywheel and bolts I know are tight. There is no way those came loose. Especially from start up on. This noise was there from start up and I just torqued the flywheel bolts twice and locktited them before I installed the motor. Pushing in the clutch doesn't make the noise go away but any kind of pressure like letting off the clutch and moving will make it go away.... :character0285: I am really at a loss for what this noise could be but I am glad it's not in the bottom end as far as i can tell. I will button that back up and trouble shoot further once I get the new bearings.

 

Dad, Indiana and Caliber feel free to express your opinions, the more the marrier for me. I need ideas.

[Shelby]

i was trying to see what was done to the block while you did the rebuild but eather i miss'd it or you didn't say .. almost all spun brg are because of lack of oil to them,, most of the time this is from trash blocking an oil supply hole in the block,, special attention should always be paid to the oil feed to the brg that spun the last time along with all the brg oil feed holes

 

ever oil feed hole i have ever seen on these engines that was plug'd was because of trash from the timeing chain guides

 

 

.003" is a little on the high side but thats not your cause for any noise , that brg in the pic is showing metal to metal contact,, that should never happen unless there is low oil pressure to the brg

 

main brg supplys oil to all 4 rod brgs , (edit'd for wrong info )

Edited April 6, 2008 by Shelby

[jwrape]

i was trying to see what was done to the block while you did the rebuild but eather i miss'd it or you didn't say .. almost all spun brg are because of lack of oil to them,, most of the time this is from trash blocking an oil supply hole in the block,, special attention should always be paid to the oil feed to the brg that spun the last time along with all the brg oil feed holes

 

ever oil feed hole i have ever seen on these engines that was plug'd was because of trash from the timeing chain guides

 

 

.003" is a little on the high side but thats not your cause for any noise , that brg in the pic is showing metal to metal contact,, that should never happen unless there is low oil pressure to the brg

 

#2 and #4 main brg supplys oil to all 4 rod brgs ,#1 #3 & #5 do not supply oil to any of the rod brgs

The rods seem to be well lubricated when I removed the caps. They also continue to leak oil while I have been installing and removing the caps to plastigauge them.

 

My build consists of a bored .40 over block. The Block was Vatted. Weisco .40 over Pistons with Race Prep Rods, Crank was turned .20 over with Total Power Bearings from DAD. The Gaskets are all Felpro and a few little things all from DAD. Balance Shaft eliminators. New T- Chain, water pump oil pump. Also did the little rubber washer trick on the timing chain tensioner to keep it tight even when the car is not running. So far the bearings seem to be ok BUT I still haven't isolated the knocking noise and the bearings seem to be decent. :character0285:

 

The TOP end was all assembled when I bought the car. The head was a pre-assembled Alabama head, approx. 5-6 months old. The intake was rebuilt by Jeremy here on the board, the person I bought the car from, MOst every bolt on the engine has been replace with the exception of the Mains. The rest have been replaced inclucing the ARP, head studs and Rod Studs. The motor should be bullet proof.... I don't know what that noise is. When I get the new bearings I am gonna lube them up and re-assemble them and start it and troubleshoot from there. I might ask Pure insanity to take a listen if he has time. He is the closest to me.

 

 

Really want it running for the showdown....

[jwrape]

At leat it looks good if it doesn't run good.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/mime-attachment-4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/jwrape/Conquest/mime-attachment-2.jpg

[Caliber308]

Ok, I re-did all of them... All of them hovered around .051mm, .002in.....

Is that good. I am assuming that's good. The only one that really showed more ware than the others was number 1 and I know the noise wasn't in the front of the engine. SO I think, unless someone says that's too much clearance then we have ruled out the bearings, but I will still wait for the new ones from Dad to replace these on Wed. or Thursday. But I will be back up and running by Monday again.....

 

The Question still is where is this coming from???? Could it be the transmission? Like I said the flywheel and bolts I know are tight. There is no way those came loose. Especially from start up on. This noise was there from start up and I just torqued the flywheel bolts twice and locktited them before I installed the motor. Pushing in the clutch doesn't make the noise go away but any kind of pressure like letting off the clutch and moving will make it go away.... :character0285: I am really at a loss for what this noise could be but I am glad it's not in the bottom end as far as i can tell. I will button that back up and trouble shoot further once I get the new bearings.

 

Dad, Indiana and Caliber feel free to express your opinions, the more the marrier for me. I need ideas.

 

jwrape, When you get the bottom end back together try this for me. Remove the valve cover and re install the ovc pipe. Place rags around the cylinder head and fire it up. Listen and look at the rocker assembly. Any noise? Proper oil feed? Does everything look fine? Im just trying to help.

 

CALIBER 308

Edited April 6, 2008 by Caliber308

[Shelby]

explain exactly what you mean when you say depressing the clutch don't change it then you say any leting off the petal makes it come and go ?????

 

and in some cases the valve cover may still be touching the head studs,, the cut out didn't look to be enought to me,, any way just loosening the cover bolts will make a diff in the sound if it is from the cover touching metal to metal,,the valve cover in not place is metal to metal it sets on rubber completely

[Komeuppance]

Sounds like a lifter to me. Just rebuilt two of these things... lifters are LOUD if they are not pumped up.

 

-Robert

[Indiana]

Its your flywheel I'll bet, did you use that tiny stocker dowel pin? its beveled on one end and a loose flyweehl sounds EXACTLY like 4 bad rod bearings, the pin is suspect and why I started to drill and replace them all with longer larger pins, pry on that flywheel and see if it just even barely wobbles, this is also going to mean your thrust bearing has had some jerking around if that is the problem, each sound you hear is the crank pulling back and the next knock is it pushing the other direction etc etc etc

 

the oiling on the rod bearings, that's not correct

 

#! main feeds: #1 rod, timing chain spray jet, upper silent shaft front AND rear bearings

#2 main feeds only #2 rod

#3 main feeds nothing, there isn't a hole in the main journal on #3

#4 main feeds #3 rod

#5 main feeds #4 rod

 

You can see the mains in this picture, 4 have oil passages and #3 you can see has no hole

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM008041.JPG

 

and the #1 and #4 holes that aren't visible in the photo above that also shows #2 and #4

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM008042.JPG

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM008043.JPG

 

 

you can tell from the way they drilled the block to the #1 main passage why the upper silent shaft and #1 rod fail more than any other, and no it has absolutely nothing to do with a lean cylinder #1 from an assumed (which is a very wrong assumption) faulty flowing stock intake manifold

 

you see the four passages from the main oil galley in this diagram, they are hard to see but you can see the passages from the mains to the rods as broken lines but the one they show in #1 going upward and reward is going to the upper silent shaft. If you look at the block from the bottom there are grooves in the bed under the upper mains, the groove for #1 and #3 are much wider than the grooves for the other 2, the #1 is wider because it has to pass oil under the insert in that groove to that spray jet and upper silent shaft, the #3 is larger because it feeds the thrust surfaces. Partial pressure loss even for a second starved that upper silent shaft and #1 rod -no not do donuts ever unless you have changed your oiling to compensate for this as in you have a dry sump pump or some other way to keep the oil pumping and not be foamy (sucking air) cause foamy oil has no pressure to it and doesn't provide any lubrication

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/Oil%20Pu2.jpg

Edited April 6, 2008 by Indiana

[Whiplash]

Here's some GREAT info by Clevite on bearing failures. Everyone that's teaaring down their engine should download this. About 3M size.

 

 

http://www.engineparts.com/publications/CL77-3-402.pdf

[jwrape]

jwrape, When you get the bottom end back together try this for me. Remove the valve cover and re install the ovc pipe. Place rags around the cylinder head and fire it up. Listen and look at the rocker assembly. Any noise? Proper oil feed? Does everything look fine? Im just trying to help.

 

CALIBER 308

I already did that. Without the rags, but did it. Still had the noise. But I didn't do it long enough to look around. Got oil EVERY where from the timing chain spinning but the head floode with oil VERY quickly and it seemed to be working properly. The hardest part about doing it again would be that the Head floods with oil and wants to over flow the sides and that's a lot of oil EVERYWHERE :-) I will see what I can do, maybe get someone else to start it for me while i watch and that will give me a quick couple seconds to inspect the valvetrain while running. Thanks for the suggestion though, anything is good suggestions right now.

[jwrape]

explain exactly what you mean when you say depressing the clutch don't change it then you say any leting off the petal makes it come and go ?????

 

and in some cases the valve cover may still be touching the head studs,, the cut out didn't look to be enought to me,, any way just loosening the cover bolts will make a diff in the sound if it is from the cover touching metal to metal,,the valve cover in not place is metal to metal it sets on rubber completely

What I mean is, if the noise was from the throw out bearings or the transmission I would think that just depressing the clutch would stop the noise. On the other hand if you are at a stop and you let out the clutch, the motor will stop briefly making the noise while the motor revs up but then the noise returns when the idle or rev's level out again. Basicaly if the motor is uder a load the noise goes away, if the motor is at a steady RPM then the noise is present.

[jwrape]

Its your flywheel I'll bet, did you use that tiny stocker dowel pin? its beveled on one end and a loose flyweehl sounds EXACTLY like 4 bad rod bearings, the pin is suspect and why I started to drill and replace them all with longer larger pins, pry on that flywheel and see if it just even barely wobbles, this is also going to mean your thrust bearing has had some jerking around if that is the problem, each sound you hear is the crank pulling back and the next knock is it pushing the other direction etc etc etc

My flywheel didn't have a dowel pin at all. I didn't have one when I pulled it off. I assume that is not good. BUT I read that 97's didn't have them, only 88 and 89's...

Edited April 6, 2008 by jwrape

[TurboRaider]

Did youi have a chance to check the clearance on the main bearings? Did you try shorting out a cylinders to see if you could reduce the noise ?

 

Kevin C

Edited April 6, 2008 by TurboRaider

[jwrape]

Did youi have a chance to check the clearance on the main bearings?

 

Kevin C

No, I haven't check them....

[Shelby]

oops :character0032: Indiana your right and i am wrong sorry,,guess i got this block mix'd up with some other block , the 4 mains all oil a rod brg

geting old sucks

Edited April 6, 2008 by Shelby

[Indiana]

There was a good reason the dowel pin was added, you get that extra hp and torque from the 88 increases and the flywheel can turn on the end of the crank and all years bolt holes in the flywheel are the same SLOPPY holes. Bolts that have something sliding back and forth cause them to flex and twist and come loose and its just worse on aluminum wheels cause it chews them all to hell and that causes a gap and loose of surface area to hold against the bolt head. Did you pry on that flywheel yet? Even just loose bolts that barely come loose cause that noise and you pushing in and out the TOB causes it to change.

 

Did you put the mains in by the book words or by the book pictures? The grooved inserts go into the block but the pictures show them in the caps which is wrong.

 

Just 40 miles is more than enough to have a knocking rod if it has low oil supply because the grooved inserts, depending on the brand, have larger openings and you may not have yet had enough miles to really eat the bearings.

 

You can see about those here: http://www.b2600turbo.com/thrust_bearings.htm

 

See the insert, this was put in wrong and if you only look at pictures in manuals you'll assemble your motor this way and kill it

 

Now imagine you put together a motor and have those installed by the book pictures, you experience rod knock and upper silent shaft failure and you draw some assumptions that there are some design flaws of the engine, faulty service manuals with reused pictures from the 70s Mitsubishi engines that did use mains with full groove inserts (grooves in both halves) You have people with Arrows and Ram50s and the rest and they form a group and gossip gets passed around for years and years and you get what people think why silent shafts need to go. If you knew this was happening in the 4g63 2.0s you'd know they changed the oiling paths and bearing surfaces way back in 1985 but our g54b didn't get anything, it was to die out 2 years later you think they cared? no but 2.0 still use shafts they just don't like the fact its a belt drive and the belt when worn and breaks can take out the timing belt but you don't hear them complaining about bearing failures do you? No, just belt failures and that's lack of maintenance and your problem not the motor design. There are others, like the one about the intake manifold and the "high" volume oil pump, the Jet valves causing cracks (that one makes me roll) they have sucky mechanical rocker screws and very complictaed carburetors and they changed the valve seals in the late 80s to Viton but you will hear how they "burn" oil cause someone still uses the wrong old valve seals from the old gasket kits and not know any better so you can't wonder why nobody wants this motor these days do you? and its all from ignorant assumptions.

 

You remember how you put those in? One reason I take all those pictures is so if someone later asks I can look cause I can't remember everything later

 

http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM003333b.JPG

Edited April 6, 2008 by Indiana