Chads MPI vs. Magna MPI, worth the extra $?

[TopDawg_43]

Oh,..   i put the radiater hose on, the neck. then undid the clamp to get it around the hose.  ( its still real tight).  i tightened the rail, down.  but it felt lopsided. 9 so-ta-speak).  yeah i ended up using that degree too, inorder to get it fit.  i used to have earls stuff on there ( thier connecters) but even with the number 8 it still stuck out to dang far.  The guys at that hydrolic place, ended making one so it would have a** clear the neck.  

i talked to the guy who is going to tune it, the first question was who built the motor??hehehee  (the tuner has a vw, an porche 911  that he plays with, both of them have the sds stuff onthem. the vw is just for racing, an from what i saw the porche could be for anything inbetween.  Long story short, he said he would let me stand by, an he would bemore than happy to show me whats going. So thats cool.  I guess i was giving off the extrmely nervous feeling, of gettingmy stuff broke.  

I know from experence,. throttle body, to efi  is an increadable difrent throttle feel. ( my old stang).  

The first time it catches fire, im throwing it across the yard, (im keeping an extignusher in the back floor board) this is way to MUCH of a hassle.

 

I've found from experience, that when you start doing heavy modding and so on, it's always a hassle.  Some made have been made for your car, but you always have to put your on touch on it to get it to work proerly.

 

Take my complete MPI setup.  I bought a complete setup, used.  So I figured that it would bolt right up in a few hours.  But no, it took me all of 20+ hours of beating, banging, cuting, drilling, cussing, and milling to get the complete setup bolted up.  And anouther four or five to wire it up and another four or five to pretty it up.  And that's about 20 hours more then I had planned to put into it.

 

Take it EZ

[shift1313]

As usual, everyone has an opinion.  If you can do it better than Chad or Magna, lets see it.  Is Chad the only one trying?  I think most of you couldn't do it by yourself.  Let us give Chad a chance.

 

Chad isnt the only one trying.  Propeine and myself are trying to get something together.  We have it all designed out but need to fabricate prototypes.  I dont know if either one of us has enough time or money to get it done any time soon though.  It will be designed more for low end where as Chads design flows better for higher rpm power.  Chads design will work!!.  There is nothing you can buy as of now that will just bolt on a be a miracle.  There will be kinks with anything out there you just have to be willing to deal with it.  We, as a community are very demanding.  Tom and I have a post asking for input on the subject as to what you guys want and there is more response in an effort to put down a product then help build up a product.  I, like chad have a life, and a job(two sometimes) a fiance, college.  These are side project for all of us.  If anyone is in a real hurry i say do it yourself, dont discourage others.  Research intake design theory, there is plenty out there on the subject.  there are tons of equations and books.    Ive never seen one of chads intakes in person but from photos the craftsmanship is excelent on them, along with the materials.

 

 

i would also like to say something about velocity porting.  I have seen motors get a gain in HP by reducing the size of the ports up to 30%.  smaller ports arent all that bad.  mainly for NA motors but never the less.

 

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy these intakes or any others.  If you dont feel comfortable buying it, what are 100 other peoples opinions gonna change things.  If i told you that you could fly would you jump off a bridge, i didnt think so.  do your research on intakes and see that the design is solid.  Chads intake will work.  Its design is more conducive to a higher revving motor, but you will see an increase but you may not be able to optimize this intakes potential unless you do some serious motor work.  and incase anyone hasnt opened the hood lately there is not exactly alot of room to work with.

[TopDawg_43]

There is nothing you can buy as of now that will just bolt on a be a miracle.  There will be kinks with anything out there you just have to be willing to deal with it.  We, as a community are very demanding.  

 

Nobody is forcing anyone to buy these intakes or any others.  If you dont feel comfortable buying it, what are 100 other peoples opinions gonna change things.  If i told you that you could fly would you jump off a bridge, i didnt think so.  do your

 

And incase anyone hasnt opened the hood lately there is not exactly alot of room to work with.

 

Could not have said it any better myself.

[chiplee]

I don't remember any kinks during my Magna installation.  Sorry but you brought it up.  I also think that coming here and reading posts like your's shift, is what some people consider research, and hearing people like you say "it will work" builds their confidence whether you caviat that statement with comments about doing their own research or not.  The debate here was laid to rest months ago, and I suggest we leave it that way.  The skeptics, or should I say people who just wanted to see it on a car and running, agreed to wait, and wait and wait and wait apparently.  So that's what we'll do.  Everyone's been awesome about not jumping up and shouting "I told you so" after this recent fire issue with Dan's car.  We all want to see what happened.  We all want to see what Chad has to say.  And people seem to have exercised very mature restraint so far in regard to the fire.  Which is probably smart since we don't know exactly what happened.  We all want to know if leaking will plague the other manifolds, or if it was operator error or design flaw or what.  So we wait.

[shift1313]

Sorry chip.  I saw that it popped up today and hadnt realized it was an old discussion.  I withdraw my previous attempt to keep peace and order.  

 

on the subject of the magna.  I was under the impression that you had to have them modded? is that not true?

 

on the research thing.  i guess your right.  I dont take to heart anything i hear unless i find some way to prove it or analyze it, i guess not everyone goes that far.

[Quest4Power]

chip,

 

my car is up and running, i just seem to have a James Bond style smoke problem coming out the exhaust (only unlike james i can't turn mine off).  i'm working on fixing the smoking now so i can finish break in and tuning.  if you like i can email you a short vid of my car running in the driveway, but unfortunately that's all the proof i have for now other than my personal experience from driving it around until i can hit the dyno for tuning time.

 

as for the case of the fire, i think Tim pretty much summed it up in that thread.  Chad only builds the intakes.  he did not install it on the car in question.  heck, i had a fuel leak on my miata when i installed the RC 440cc injectors on it, and that was with the stock intake manifold and rail.  it's just one of the many things to contend with when doing a custom setup like this.

[89onaquest]

ok, an new outsiders opinion...

 

Blame lies with...

BOTH PARTIES in the case of the fire.

 

I say both cause, as I read a few of these prelies, it seems that Chads' intake has some inherant probs with sealing.

Quote from another member..

"...the more I tightened it, the worse it (...The leak...) got.."

 

There is a differance between haveing "pressure space to tighten down, and having so much space that it will distort the O rings (which BTW sounds like what happened)

It is Chads fault that the O rings failed?  No.

However is it his fault IF there is too big a space to tighten down the fuel rail/injectors? Yes.

If that was the cause, then the blame begins with Chad.

 

Now moving to the victim...

What did he do wrong you ask?

Well ANTY TIME you mess with fuel parts you always ALWAYS ALWAYSdo the following... once put back togeather

Remove the coil wire... remove plugs (to prevent any chance of fowling)

Crank for a few to 10-15 seconds.

This will let the pressure build. If any leaks are really bad, they will become evident VERY QUICKLY when you look back under the hood.

Second, (if no appearant puiddle is waiting for you) you replace the plugs, and the coil wire. Start the car normally. Allow to idle for SEVERAL MINUTES!.

Closely inspecting all joints into and out of the fuel lines. Again, if you see a leak/puddle forming SHUT THE CAR OFF.

Find the source and fix if possible.

 

Do I have a better product to fix all the problems? No. Do I plan to? No.

This was to settle any possible issues still floating around. The total blame does not fall on any one of the parties, but both, pretty equally.

[Quest4Power]

ok, an new outsiders opinion...

 

Blame lies with...

BOTH PARTIES in the case of the fire.

 

I say both cause, as I read a few of these prelies, it seems that Chads' intake has some inherant probs with sealing.

Quote from another member..

"...the more I tightened it, the worse it (...The leak...) got.."

 

There is a differance between haveing "pressure space to tighten down, and having so much space that it will distort the O rings (which BTW sounds like what happened)

It is Chads fault that the O rings failed?  No.

However is it his fault IF there is too big a space to tighten down the fuel rail/injectors? Yes.

If that was the cause, then the blame begins with Chad.

 

Now moving to the victim...

What did he do wrong you ask?

Well ANTY TIME you mess with fuel parts you always ALWAYS ALWAYSdo the following... once put back togeather

Remove the coil wire... remove plugs (to prevent any chance of fowling)

Crank for a few to 10-15 seconds.

This will let the pressure build. If any leaks are really bad, they will become evident VERY QUICKLY when you look back under the hood.

Second, (if no appearant puiddle is waiting for you) you replace the plugs, and the coil wire. Start the car normally. Allow to idle for SEVERAL MINUTES!.

Closely inspecting all joints into and out of the fuel lines. Again, if you see a leak/puddle forming SHUT THE CAR OFF.

Find the source and fix if possible.

 

Do I have a better product to fix all the problems? No. Do I plan to? No.

This was to settle any possible issues still floating around. The total blame does not fall on any one of the parties, but both, pretty equally.

 

 

makes sense...

[chiplee]

This was to settle any possible issues still floating around. The total blame does not fall on any one of the parties, but both, pretty equally.

 

You don't have the responsibility, obligation or frame of reference to settle this.  It'll be settled by the parties involved.  Your opinion is welcome, but it "settles" nothing.

[FastEddie]

Oh, man. Give it up...

I get a speeding ticket, I dont blame the gas station for selling me gas...

So dont blame others for some stupid mistake.

"Smells like gas" "Better floor it out make sure its not leaking"

"Uh oh, FIRE..."

Lots-a-Laughs  ;D

This thread is outta control should put be in "Just Plain ole BS Forum"

 

-Edward

[Quest4Power]

back to the topic:

 

i figured out that my turbo was the culprit in making the bellowing smoke out of my car.  i had the CHRA clocked a bit too far off center and the oil was pooling and draining out the rear seal.  apparently seals in a turbo are meant only to stop mist and not pooling oil (news to me).  i will have the car running very soon assuming after a good cleaning and re-installation the correct way will make it stop leaking (so i've been told this will work).

[89onaquest]

You don't have the responsibility, obligation or frame of reference to settle this.  It'll be settled by the parties involved.  Your opinion is welcome, but it "settles" nothing.

It might not "settle" anything, but people are blaming either one or the other.. the truth of the matter is, both were at fault. Thats the point I was tring to make, but appearantly, you missed that.

 

Superquest, glad you the prob solved. Smoking can be a pain...

[chiplee]

I didn't miss anything.  I simply commented on one part of your post.  I read your whole post, and as I said your opinion is welcome.  The fact of the matter is that my opinion is quite similar to your's.   No matter how much it puts Edward out to come here and read all this nonsense and then post about it to add to the "out of control BS" it has become, a few simple facts remain.

 

1.  Dan should have sent the manifold back when it leaked the first time

 

2.  Chad should have tested the manifolds by installing and using one on his car before he ever considered selling one.  Before the cash register sounds started filling his dreams, before the big contraversy started, before dan's car caught fire.  

 

Imagine if that testing had been completed, there would be absolutely no room for speculation about fault.  It would be obvious that Dan had made a mistake.  Instead there is more than the shadow of a doubt, because the first two people to try to use the manifold had serious issues with the fuel rail.  Hmmm, I wonder.  I'm speaking aprehensively.  I recognize this is no more my issue than it is Fasteddie's, but laughing at Dan, and ridiculing the people who chose to express their opinions on the matter is uncalled for.  So I thought I'd share my thoughts.  I hope it's ok with you Edward.

[Quest4Power]

the fact of the matter is we know no more than the info we've been given.  he installed the intake and the car caught fire.  do we know exactly what was wrong? no.  do we know chad had some design flaw that caused it to happen reagardless of what dan did? no.  do we know that dan installed everything correctly? nope.

but what needs to be realized here is that if i went and installed ODG's ABS elim. line and it was leaking, and i didn't check to make sure it wasn't leaking, and my brakes fail and i get in a wreck, who is at fault?  was the line defective or did i not tigten it enough?  without sharing that crucial bit of info it could go either way.  let's just all agree to leave it to them to figure out what happened and to fix the problem.

[Quest4Power]

oh, and mine leaked due to the design changes that I made to the intake/fuel rail and i take full responsibility for that.  i bought one of his "prototypes" so i knew ahead of time what i was getting into as far as making it work the way i wanted.

[chiplee]

Oh I didn't know your's had leaked at one point as well.  That makes three of Chad's intakes that leaked, not two.  But if you take responsibility for your's that's cool, I understand.

[Quest4Power]

Oh I didn't know your's had leaked at one point as well.  That makes three of Chad's intakes that leaked, not two.  But if you take responsibility for your's that's cool, I understand.

 

like i said, i put in my own injector bungs and changed the angle of the fuel rail mounting and didn't line stuff up too well.  entirely my own oversight and i've since fixed the problem.

[Dcrasta]

Well ANTY TIME you mess with fuel parts you always ALWAYS ALWAYSdo the following... once put back togeather

Remove the coil wire... remove plugs (to prevent any chance of fowling)

Crank for a few to 10-15 seconds.

This will let the pressure build. If any leaks are really bad, they will become evident VERY QUICKLY when you look back under the hood.

Second, (if no appearant puiddle is waiting for you) you replace the plugs, and the coil wire. Start the car normally. Allow to idle for SEVERAL MINUTES!.

Closely inspecting all joints into and out of the fuel lines. Again, if you see a leak/puddle forming SHUT THE CAR OFF.

Find the source and fix if possible.

 

Do I have a better product to fix all the problems? No. Do I plan to? No.

This was to settle any possible issues still floating around. The total blame does not fall on any one of the parties, but both, pretty equally.

 

Sounds good except if the leak only pops up when your on the boost hauling a** with max fuel pressure.  

[89onaquest]

Sounds good except if the leak only pops up when your on the boost hauling a** with max fuel pressure.  

Actually, from what I understand, fuel pressure is the same when the car is originally equiped with a turbo, under boost does not matter.

 

Now, when the car is equiped with a FMU, that WILL actually raise the pressure.

 

But if the system is done right, pressure will remain constant, not matter the condition. The only thing that should change is the injector pulse length.

[chiplee]

well then you understand wrong.  At the very least fuel pressure increases one lb per lb of boost on our car.  An FMU can't adjust fuel pressure either.  Just the fuel pressure regulator.

[89onaquest]

well then you understand wrong.  At the very least fuel pressure increases one lb per lb of boost on our car.  An FMU can't adjust fuel pressure either.  Just the fuel pressure regulator.

What exactly is your problem?

 

A FMU DOES EFFECT fuel pressure, as it restricts the outgoing fuel(to the tank) in accordance with the ratio disk that is installed.

 

And as I said, a WELL DONE system, will see no pressure gains, or losses. The pressure will remain constant, letting the only adjustments being made by the computer to control fuel ratio.

[chiplee]

What exactly is your problem?

 

A FMU DOES EFFECT fuel pressure, as it restricts the outgoing fuel(to the tank) in accordance with the ratio disk that is installed.

 

And as I said, a WELL DONE system, will see no pressure gains, or losses. The pressure will remain constant, letting the only adjustments being made by the computer to control fuel ratio.

 

Well I think my problem is my misunderstanding of the term FMU.  I hadn't heard a FPR called that in a long time because we just don't use them around here.  So my bad, I thought you were saying an ECU could change fuel pressure, because I mistakenly equated ECU with FMU.  Forgive me.  The bigger problem I have with your post however, is this line.

Actually, from what I understand, fuel pressure is the same when the car is originally equiped with a turbo, under boost does not matter.

 As this is simply incorrect, and it's what I was talking about when I said you understand it wrong.  I should learn to beat around the bush better but I can't.

If you won't take my word for it maybe you'll listen to Mr. Bell from Kenne-Bell.  Here's what he thinks about forced induction FPR requirements.  "All forced induction engines must have an FMU of at least 1:1 ratio of boost to fuel pressure increase." He explains that if your normal fuel pressure is 43 PSI and your boost is 7 PSI with no FMU/FPR you have a negative affect on the fuel pressure and are essentially reducing the fuel pressure by 7 PSI.  As the pressure increases in the plenum it restricts the fuel from flowing from the injectors. In this example the net effect on fuel pressure is a reduction of 7 PSI, so it is now 36 PSI. This further compounds any lean condition you might have to contend with.  I just didn't want to let bad gouge float around unchecked.  It's nothing personal

[89onaquest]

Well I think my problem is my misunderstanding of the term FMU.  I hadn't heard a FPR called that in a long time because we just don't use them around here.  So my bad, I thought you were saying an ECU could change fuel pressure, because I mistakenly equated ECU with FMU.  Forgive me.  The bigger problem I have with your post however, is this line.

 As this is simply incorrect, and it's what I was talking about when I said you understand it wrong.  I should learn to beat around the bush better but I can't.

If you won't take my word for it maybe you'll listen to Mr. Bell from Kenne-Bell.  Here's what he thinks about forced induction FPR requirements.  "All forced induction engines must have an FMU of at least 1:1 ratio of boost to fuel pressure increase." He explains that if your normal fuel pressure is 43 PSI and your boost is 7 PSI with no FMU/FPR you have a negative affect on the fuel pressure and are essentially reducing the fuel pressure by 7 PSI.  As the pressure increases in the plenum it restricts the fuel from flowing from the injectors. In this example the net effect on fuel pressure is a reduction of 7 PSI, so it is now 36 PSI. This further compounds any lean condition you might have to contend with.  I just didn't want to let bad gouge float around unchecked.  It's nothing personal

Whatever that was... accepted.

 

Although I mainly deal with FMU's, I like modding chips first.

But as a close second I will take a FMU. I like dealing with FMU's alot better then adjustable FPR's. Those can be a MAJOR pain.

[chiplee]

Are you implying that you accept my apology, without any mention of your own error in comprehension?  Listen man, I mustered up every ounce of discipline I have to keep from flogging you for asking me what my problem was.  I think the least you can do is admit you were wrong with some comment other than "accepted".  You said "a WELL DONE system, will see no pressure gains, or losses. The pressure will remain constant, letting the only adjustments being made by the computer to control fuel ratio. " That is plain wrong.  I tried a very calm and friendly approach to dealing with a situation that frankly irritated the crap out of me, and you want to glaze over it like you never misunderstood anything.  that's cool.  Noted

[89onaquest]

Are you implying that you accept my apology, without any mention of your own error in comprehension?  Listen man, I mustered up every ounce of discipline I have to keep from flogging you for asking me what my problem was.  I think the least you can do is admit you were wrong with some comment other than "accepted".  You said "a WELL DONE system, will see no pressure gains, or losses. The pressure will remain constant, letting the only adjustments being made by the computer to control fuel ratio. " That is plain wrong.  I tried a very calm and friendly approach to dealing with a situation that frankly irritated the crap out of me, and you want to glaze over it like you never misunderstood anything.  that's cool.  Noted

Again. I don't see your problem. ??????

 

And I am correct in stating that a WELL DONE SYSTEM WILL see no pressure loss, or gains no matter what is being run engine wise.

 

I have seen many a turbo (25-27 PSI) system with nothing but a good chip to control the fuel ratio. And the last one I saw was running (in Va Beach) for over 3 years and had absolutely no problems.

 

The quote you pulled from whereever stating that boost will effect fuel delivery, is true.. to a point. yes it hinders some of the feeding pressure, which that will effect the spray, however, a good chip will both open the injector earlier, and for a longer time to compensate.

 

The most common solution, as I stated earlier is first, to program a chip. Second, to add an FMU. This will increase the fuel rail pressure in whatever ratio disk is installed. This can be troublesome in tuning as it varies a otherwise constant value in the equation. That why I perfer to deal with the problem in chip tuning first. Second is a FMU with a very small ratio disk, like a 1-1 or a 1.5-1 at most.

 

So nothing I said earlier is wrong. It all depends on how you want to deal with the problem. I always see more then 1 option. Afterall there always has to be at least 2 options.

 

I am dropping this. As it seems that no one can know better then you. Granted, I probly don't have the "on car" experiance on the 'quest, as I have not messed around with it much, but I do nkow both turbo systems, and fuel systems that they require.

Continue to argue with yourself.