money4771 Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 (edited) Ok before I get started let me preface by saying I have done all the "searches" a man can do. Ok so I am having a hard start issue. This has never been a problem in the past. I just put in a new head, gasket, and ARP's. After this work the hard start began. Don't really think it's related at all, but just wanted to give info in case. after the car sits for a while then I can turn it over and over to the point that the battery almost runs down and at times does run all the way down. Once the car starts I can drive and have no issues. Not sure the time frame for the bleed down but I have let it sit as many as three hours with no issue.I have done the jumper wire to the fuel pump test and it works. I jumper the fuel pump for several minutes and the car starts right up. My question is what exactly do I need to do next to determine where the bleed off is. I have a Walbro fuel pump so I know that I don't have the check valve, but this has never been an issue before. I am also quite sure that my injectors aren't leaking externally because I don't see or really smell any evidence of gas in the area before I try to start it. Edited February 4, 2012 by money4771 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skullzaflare Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 do not crank it that long, you are killing the starter when it pulls the no start, does it smoke at all when it finally starts?some of the injectors will slowly leak down the intake, and flood. Have you checked to see if you have spark when this happens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 yes I have spark during this, and if i never try to start it at all and do the fuel pump jumper first it starts on the first try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott87star Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 That is how a fuel pressure regulator fails, it starts not holding fuel pressure while sitting making for hard starts. I'd start with that. Scott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted January 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 ok what's the test for fuel pressure regulator leak down? Or should I just replace it, and if so what is the part # Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89PalermoSHP Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 pull the vac line off the bottom of it and look/smell for gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Yeah, the vac line to the regulator would have fuel in it. You can pinch off the return line some (partially) and see if it starts normally to test the FPR. Fuel pressure builds in one second normally. You really should put a gauge on the TB to see what the injectors are seeing.You could spray a pinch of starting fluid in the TB to see if it wants to start right up then. That verifies fuel issue, but it seems you are pretty sure it is now.Could be clogged filters too. Chances are good at least 2 are clogged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted January 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 ok checked the vac line from the fpr and didn't really smell gas just a faint hint, no visible sign at all. Next I tried to start it and it wouldn't. So I jumpered the fuel pump for about a minute and it fires right up. I drove it around and parked. I came out two hours later and it started right up, so I know for sure it doesn't leak down in two hours. I drove it around again then parked it. I and let it cool off. I then put a piece pulled the vac line off of the vac nipple and left it connected to the fpr. I let it rest on top of some paper I had put in a small glass jar. I left it there over night. this morning I went out and no sign at all of any fuel on the paper in the jar. I connected the line back and tried to start it and it wouldn't. Next step is to hook up the pressure gauge and see what I am getting when it won't start vs. when it will. I will let you guys know. Thanks for the help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skullzaflare Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 ok checked the vac line from the fpr and didn't really smell gas just a faint hint, no visible sign at all. Next I tried to start it and it wouldn't. So I jumpered the fuel pump for about a minute and it fires right up. I drove it around and parked. I came out two hours later and it started right up, so I know for sure it doesn't leak down in two hours. I drove it around again then parked it. I and let it cool off. I then put a piece pulled the vac line off of the vac nipple and left it connected to the fpr. I let it rest on top of some paper I had put in a small glass jar. I left it there over night. this morning I went out and no sign at all of any fuel on the paper in the jar. I connected the line back and tried to start it and it wouldn't. Next step is to hook up the pressure gauge and see what I am getting when it won't start vs. when it will. I will let you guys know. Thanks for the helpsounds like your fuel pump relay isnt kicking the pump ontrying having someone jump the tester for the pump, and start cranking as soon as they do.if it starts, then the relay isnt kicking. if it doesnt start, then look else where lol check your injector clips as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 You need to look at the ECI fuse link, sounds like its dirty. Its in the holder behind the battery. The ECU holds the fuel pump relay on when the ignition key moves from start to run after it gets a tach signal. The tach signal from the coil to the ECU is off the negative terminal of your coil. Whether or not your pump holds pressure doesn't prevent the car from starting. The ignition system is separate from the ECU which is just for fuel control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Skullz and Indiana, When this all started I put a test light on the fuel pump test port. I cranked the engine while the test light was connected and the light was coming on during cranking. So I am assuming that the relay is doing what it should. Am I correct in this assumptiion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Ok installed gauge I am getting 38 psi during the times I try a cold start. It will not start. After turning key and it failing to start I can see the pressure fall. Removed the ovcp and saw no leakage from injectors. I can install a jumper on the fuel pump and it still won't start so it's not the relay dropping the fuel pump out. If I leave the pump jumpered for a few minutes it finally hits ( why?) during this whole process pressure is 38. After it finally starts idle pressure is 40 and goes over 100 easily when return is pinched. once it starts every start afterward is instant. I mean it doesn't turn over even twice before it starts Walbro fuel pump - fip pro2- msd coil - ngk plugs Edited January 31, 2012 by money4771 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 coolant temp sensor resistance 4800 ohms when cold 350 when warmed up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 You tried a new ignition switch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 No Indy I have not. Kinda puzzled as to what could be happening with the ignition switch. Turns over every time . Tach jumps as you crank , coil is firing . What am I missing that the switch is causing? Thanks bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 When moving from start to run position if the switch is worn you'll loose what is supposed to be a continuous connection. Your fuel pressure will only be maintained after the pump shuts down if you have a working pump damper which also acts as a check valve on the end of the stock pump. If you don't have that and your pump has no check valve the pressure just leaks down through the pump. Having full pressure when you turn the key to "start" means you immediately have the proper spray from the injectors not 6 or 10 or how many it takes to get full pressure. When you have low pressure and the injector opens the fuel pisses out and dribbles then its just laying in there and doesn't mix with the air properly so it takes longer to get the engine started and when it does its too rich. Those original dampers are adjusted to within a couple psi to the same pressure the regulator is for the base pressure. If you have no check valve, no damper on the end of the pump you will have harder starts because there is low or no fuel pressure when you turn the key and the way the system works the pump doesn't activate until the ignition key is in the start position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Ok Indy gotcha. How about this even when I jumper the fuel pump which gives me the steady signal to keep the fuel pump running the car won't start right up. I usually end up having it jumpered for 5 min or so then eventually it starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 (edited) Ok got home a minute ago. tried to start the car just one time. before I tried it the fuel pressure was at zero like it always is. Turned it over once and fuel pressure went to 38 like usual, but no start. tried it again, no start. I then pinched off the fuel return line, not fully but some. It busted off on the next try as soon as the key hit the start position. I released the pinch on the return line and shut the car off. I then tried it again without the line pinched and it started. It always starts fine after the first one. What can this be. the fuel pressure was at like 52 when I pinched the hose and tried to start it. Edited February 1, 2012 by money4771 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 You might clean the fuse links, the ECU might not be getting power to fire the injectors or your injector clips are dirty. If your injectors are leaking or sticking that could also be the problem. Have you sent those out to be cleaned before? You can send them here: www.rceng.com How about the connector clips to the injectors, have you inspected or changed those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 Changed those clips about 2 years ago. Prolly just get new ones. Have not sent injectors out for cleaning ever. Prolly do that can't hurt even if that's not the whole problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
money4771 Posted February 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 ok the pinching off of the return line was a fluke. worked only that one time. I finally got around to getting some starting fluid and spraying it into the chamber and it fires righ off the firs time. did it again today and it fired right up the first time. I let it run for 1 minute, shut it off and it fired right up on the next try. injector clips look really good. resistance on the primary is 3.4 ohms and secondary is 2.0. fsm says 2-3 so is 3.4 too high? another oddity to me is that it will idle with either clip plugged in and the other unhooked. but it will idle super duper poorly with one unhooked.I unhooked the secondary and it stumbled and stumbled until i plugged the secondary back in and it smoothed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UlrichWolf Posted February 3, 2012 Report Share Posted February 3, 2012 It shouldn't start at all with the primary unhooked. The secondary doesn't hit till 2500 RPM. Do you have the right clips plugged into the right injectors, and do you have the injectors in the proper orientation? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 If the pump runs and it won't start and the injectors test good that means the ECU isn't firing them and the ECU won't fire them if it doesn't see the tach signal or it has no power. The power to the ECU comes through the fuse link "ECI" in the holder behind the battery. Injector clips or terminals on the injectors can easily corrode again in a few weeks if it sits where it was damp on the ground and the hood closed and the connection bare. The aftermarket clips don't have boots on the back and without electrical grease to protect the connection they rot easier than you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starfighterpilot Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 injector clips look really good. resistance on the primary is 3.4 ohms and secondary is 2.0. fsm says 2-3 so is 3.4 too high? Your primary injector is shot. It should not read more than 3 ohms resistance like the FSM says. You need a replacement primary injector. Check the parts for sale forum or post in the parts wanted forum for a GOOD used one. Until you get that injector replaced you are just going to continue chasing your tail. For What It's Worth. KEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted February 4, 2012 Report Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Your primary injector is shot. It should not read more than 3 ohms resistance like the FSM says. You need a replacement primary injector. Check the parts for sale forum or post in the parts wanted forum for a GOOD used one. Until you get that injector replaced you are just going to continue chasing your tail. For What It's Worth. KEN Kinda makes sense. You have fuel to the injectors, correct. And it fires up with starting fluid, correct. But it does not stay running, correct. What it is doing is running off the starting fluid then dieing. Switch your Injector clips around and see if it starts and runs. It will be SUPER RICH and run like crap starting off of the Secondary injector, but it should still run. If it does...Ken is correct. You need a new Primary Fuel Injector. P.S. After all of these times of trying to start your car I would suggest this: Change your Spark plugs and drain the oil. Bill Edited February 4, 2012 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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