Manual steering gearbox?

[zactek]

yah, more traffic, but what kind? Did you get any answers you wanted here either? You want lots of replies? or good ones? LOL

 

Don't the manual conversions use the same coupler? I seem to recall PQ saying they do in a long winded argument. You are SOL on that if it is.

I wanted the good kind, not the useless kind. I wanted answers on where to get one, not on why NOT to do it, and no, I didn't get any, except for FijiPhil's reply

 

The manual conversion uses the same coupler IF I was using the stock Mighty Max column, OR ProfessorQuests' extended/modified column. Since he won't sell me a box unless I'm buying his column, (and I won't) and I'm not using the MM column either, I plan on extending/welding the stock coupler to reach the box, so really I'm not SOL

 

Zack K.

[Tim_C.]

The stock coupler won't hold up and will deteriorate very fast with a manual box. You'll need a different coupler designed for manual steering. Welding that coupler might just send the column up your rear in an accident too. It is designed to break there, thus not continuing the force and driving the column at the driver.

 

The reason this topic ends up with people telling someone why not to do it is because 99.99999% of the time, the person is making a bad mistake that can KILL them!!!!!! It must be done properly, and quite frankly, Zac isn't asking the right questions, or using the proper terminology to make people on here feel comfortable with helping him do it. These aren't things that someone who hasn't done steering systems should be doing. Don't learn how not to do it by killing yourself is the main reason this topic is approached like this. Real mechanics see idiots all the time who bring their cars in, ready to have the steering wheel fall off in their lap before they realize they did something wrong. We have even taken the keys from people who thought they could drive their car out of the shop parking lot with steering arms disconnected! Had to call the cops to tow it away since the idiot was too dumb to know you can't drive a car like that.

 

So, if you don't know that the stock coupler will not work with manual steering, you are not experienced enough to even think about touching the steering let alone doing a conversion. You don't know the mechanics involved and you don't learn that on the internet from idiots who want to tell you otherwise. That said, please feel free to learn for yourself, but if you end up splattered all over the pavement because of some other important item your inexperience didn't know to address, don't say I didn't warn you!

 

Another thing is that anyone who provides info for you and tells you to do it, can be held liable if something bad happens.

 

And as Chad has already pointed out, there really is no gain or good reason to go manual other than if the car is a trailer show queen and doesn't get driven much if at all. You can drive them in normal street driving except slippery conditions. No problem when done correctly, but the main concern here is that you won't do it correctly and we care more about you than you do yourself it seems. Therefore the reasons to not do it. To be safe, you really need a bigger steering wheel than ours too.

 

And we haven't really even scratched the surface of what truly needs changed to have a reliable, long lasting manual steering system in a StarQuest. For one, the geometry of the steering system is not made for it. Trucks are lightweight too, and have different geometry. Two major advantages to allow for it more safely.

 

Just because someone gets a manual steering set-up working on a StarQuest, doesn't mean it is safe or done correctly. We're just trying to help anyone who reads this and other such threads to know that it is not something for the backyard mechanic to do, and your very life depends on it, so please understand that. 2 things to not take for granted are brakes and steering, but many, many people do. I've personally seen at least 3 car wrecks from some idiot trying to make their brakes better, or steering changes gone wrong. In all cases, the people are very fortunate that our God allowed them to live through their bad mistake.

 

If you do anything, please at least take PQ's advice and get everything he offers because the column needs modified to do it right, and he has resources to do that. From what Cyberquest said before, it is a matched set married together. Thus maybe the reason PQ only offers the box with the column and rightly so. I'm sure it can be done safely and correctly, but really, only years and years of miles and miles of testing can prove that. Right now, Cyberquest is the one who seems to have done it correctly and is the test guinea pig for the StarQuest community, but in no way is anything proven to be engineered correctly or safe. Good chance it is, but a decent chance it isn't too and one guy driving his car 5 months out of the year doesn't prove anything.

[zactek]

The stock coupler won't hold up and will deteriorate very fast with a manual box. You'll need a different coupler designed for manual steering.

 

Yes, I agree 100% and that's why I disassembled the coupler completely, all rubber inside is removed, and I'm machining a 1/4 thick spacer/sleeve to fit both sides of the coupler, getting it welded, and then welding another thinnner sleeve on the outside. I will post pics when done and it will be 100% steel with nothing to fail.

 

Zack K.

[Lance_S]

Zack,

 

Why did you quote me? I was the one who was actually pointing out that you were trying to find a source for a steering box and then linked you one on ebay. You might have read my post in it's completion before quoting me....I actually agree with you and plan on the swap as well. I think it's a great idea. I actually have strong arms and don't mind the extra strength it takes to turn the wheel when the car is going slow. In return, I will be rewarded with a car that has better feedback. I think people are used to driving cars with sloppy steering. As I have said before, drive an M3, then drive a conquest and then tell me the steering in our cars is tight and has great feedback. O.K. flame suit on! In all seriousness, I am interested in your feedback once you have done the swap so let us know, or at least let me know. I might be the only one interested.

[Tim_C.]

 

Yes, I agree 100% and that's why I disassembled the coupler completely, all rubber inside is removed, and I'm machining a 1/4 thick spacer/sleeve to fit both sides of the coupler, getting it welded, and then welding another thinnner sleeve on the outside. I will post pics when done and it will be 100% steel with nothing to fail.

 

Zack K.

That's what I'm talking about here. You now have a column that will take your head off in an accident.

[Tim_C.]

Zack,

 

Why did you quote me? I was the one who was actually pointing out that you were trying to find a source for a steering box and then linked you one on ebay. You might have read my post in it's completion before quoting me....I actually agree with you and plan on the swap as well. I think it's a great idea. I actually have strong arms and don't mind the extra strength it takes to turn the wheel when the car is going slow. <_ in return i will be rewarded with a car that has better feedback. think people are used to driving cars sloppy steering. as have said before drive an m3 then conquest and tell me the steering our is tight great o.k. flame suit on all seriousness am interested your feedback once you done swap so let us know or at least know. might only one interested.>

No, there are others interested too.

The CBRII car has less than 5K miles on it and my friend Patrick who drove it some of the way to Mesquite in Nov, told me how perfect the steering felt. He couldn't believe how tight it was. Point being, before thinking that a manual box is the answer to your loose steering, you might want to replace all steering compnents with new first, including the box. And, never even think about a manual conversion unless all steering components are being replaced with new first.

[zactek]

Zack,

 

Why did you quote me? I was the one who was actually pointing out that you were trying to find a source for a steering box and then linked you one on ebay. You might have read my post in it's completion before quoting me....I actually agree with you and plan on the swap as well. I think it's a great idea. I actually have strong arms and don't mind the extra strength it takes to turn the wheel when the car is going slow. In return, I will be rewarded with a car that has better feedback. I think people are used to driving cars with sloppy steering. As I have said before, drive an M3, then drive a conquest and then tell me the steering in our cars is tight and has great feedback. O.K. flame suit on! In all seriousness, I am interested in your feedback once you have done the swap so let us know, or at least let me know. I might be the only one interested.

 

I know you're the only one agreeing with me, and I didn't think I was doing anything negative by quoting you. I was just underlining what you have said and have no problem with you whatsoever

And, as Tim C states above, mods like this are not for newbies to perform and should be handled very carefully and professionally, which is how I like to do them.

 

Zack K.

[zactek]

That's what I'm talking about here. You now have a column that will take your head off in an accident.

 

I don't know where people get the notion that the stock coupler will "collapse" in an accident and save your life. If you have ever taken one apart you will realize there's nothing to collapse there because it's mostly metal that won't go anywhere with a 1/8 rubber lining that will do nothing except dampen the vibration from the engine. If I'm ever in accident that bad, that will be the least of my worries.

 

Zack K.

[Tim_C.]

 

I don't know where people get the notion that the stock coupler will "collapse" in an accident and save your life. If you have ever taken one apart you will realize there's nothing to collapse there because it's mostly metal that won't go anywhere with a 1/8 rubber lining that will do nothing except dampen the vibration from the engine. If I'm ever in accident that bad, that will be the least of my worries.

 

Zack K.

 

You will get into trouble fast thinking like that. It isn't a notion. Yes, I have had one come apart on me! I was fortunate. I had play in the wheel, but I've felt worse, and one tight corner, and snap! It jumped a knuckle! That rubber lining is what will allow an impact to the column to make it break right there. Your engineering experience is above that of the Japanese engineers who designed the car. I'm just showing you how it is no 'fly by night' thing to start fooling around with OEM steering on any car. There are many aspects of the design that guys like you and me don't think about when we go and change it. A simple rock can come from underneath and catch ONLY the gear box. That happens quite frequently in accidents where the car swerved off of the road, or got run off, etc.. It hits some big rock, high curb, or digs into a hump that jams the column.

That coupler is definitely designed to break in such an accident. Why do you think the pins are magnetically removed when 'unloaded'. In those accidents, they will fly out and it will practically disassemble itself. You would be the one with the 'notion' about everything being okay after welding it up.

Arrogance kills, so I remain humble to say I hope and pray it does not result in anything bad for you. Is the OEM design perfect? No. This car was way ahead of its time in many ways and essentially a prototype for some parts. Just like many years of Cadillacs. They were built to fill a market need that other cars don't fill. That ends up putting a lot of pressure on engineers to get something that works and go with it into production, knowing it may require changing outside of the warranty.

There are couplers out there that are the same technology as the stocker. I would think someone could find such a replacement fairly easily if they really needed one. I have one of the last ones new in box.

[Lance_S]

delete... Edited December 13, 2011 by Lance_S

[Chad]

for the sake of the argument, I do own a manual steering starion, it's a straight up race car. It's not easy to drive on the street as you would expect, but it does not drastically change the handling characteristics of the car. I don't feel the road much more, the stock setup pretty well shuts off at high RPM anyway, so it's not that different from stock in a race or spirited driving where steering feedback really counts, and it's just harder to turn when you are going slow.

 

For me it was not a big benifit and I'll never suggest it to anyone. I bought the car this way BTW.

 

I do agree, a rebuilt stock steering setup is very tight and handles very well, and a loose manual one isn't going to be better in any way.

 

To me, a welded coupler is not a good idea:

 

welded steering parts = unsafe

forged/machined steering parts = safe

[Maxzillian]

 

You will get into trouble fast thinking like that. It isn't a notion. Yes, I have had one come apart on me! I was fortunate. I had play in the wheel, but I've felt worse, and one tight corner, and snap! It jumped a knuckle! That rubber lining is what will allow an impact to the column to make it break right there. Your engineering experience is above that of the Japanese engineers who designed the car. I'm just showing you how it is no 'fly by night' thing to start fooling around with OEM steering on any car. There are many aspects of the design that guys like you and me don't think about when we go and change it. A simple rock can come from underneath and catch ONLY the gear box. That happens quite frequently in accidents where the car swerved off of the road, or got run off, etc.. It hits some big rock, high curb, or digs into a hump that jams the column.

That coupler is definitely designed to break in such an accident. Why do you think the pins are magnetically removed when 'unloaded'. In those accidents, they will fly out and it will practically disassemble itself. You would be the one with the 'notion' about everything being okay after welding it up.

Arrogance kills, so I remain humble to say I hope and pray it does not result in anything bad for you. Is the OEM design perfect? No. This car was way ahead of its time in many ways and essentially a prototype for some parts. Just like many years of Cadillacs. They were built to fill a market need that other cars don't fill. That ends up putting a lot of pressure on engineers to get something that works and go with it into production, knowing it may require changing outside of the warranty.

There are couplers out there that are the same technology as the stocker. I would think someone could find such a replacement fairly easily if they really needed one. I have one of the last ones new in box.

 

Tim, I just want to point on a couple facts. I'm not necessarily saying that you are wrong, but you are missing a few key details:

 

1: The steering coupler pins are held in place by a steel sleeve. This sleeve would have to fail for the pins to fall out and the coupler to disengage from the steering column. Even if that were to happen, it'd do nothing to prevent compressive forces from pushing on the steering column as both ends of the coupler are captured by a ball and socket design and would only come apart if the column was placed under tension.

 

2: The steering box end of the steering column shaft is shaped like a set of metal bellows, only out of much thicker material. This final foot or so of column is designed to collapse in a wreck and prevent the steering wheel from punching you in the face. This is the critical part that should never be modified. Unfortunately I do recall reading a guide a few years back in which they showed how the bellows were heated using a torch so that the column could be stretched to reach the manual steering box. This I do not condone.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Maxzillian

[zactek]

 

You will get into trouble fast thinking like that. It isn't a notion. Yes, I have had one come apart on me! I was fortunate. I had play in the wheel, but I've felt worse, and one tight corner, and snap! It jumped a knuckle! That rubber lining is what will allow an impact to the column to make it break right there. Your engineering experience is above that of the Japanese engineers who designed the car. I'm just showing you how it is no 'fly by night' thing to start fooling around with OEM steering on any car. There are many aspects of the design that guys like you and me don't think about when we go and change it. A simple rock can come from underneath and catch ONLY the gear box. That happens quite frequently in accidents where the car swerved off of the road, or got run off, etc.. It hits some big rock, high curb, or digs into a hump that jams the column.

That coupler is definitely designed to break in such an accident. Why do you think the pins are magnetically removed when 'unloaded'. In those accidents, they will fly out and it will practically disassemble itself. You would be the one with the 'notion' about everything being okay after welding it up.

Arrogance kills, so I remain humble to say I hope and pray it does not result in anything bad for you. Is the OEM design perfect? No. This car was way ahead of its time in many ways and essentially a prototype for some parts. Just like many years of Cadillacs. They were built to fill a market need that other cars don't fill. That ends up putting a lot of pressure on engineers to get something that works and go with it into production, knowing it may require changing outside of the warranty.

There are couplers out there that are the same technology as the stocker. I would think someone could find such a replacement fairly easily if they really needed one. I have one of the last ones new in box.

 

Tim, what I'm attempting to do will not change the dynamic of the coupler, as I'm reusing the end with the small magnetic pins and the other side that bolts to the gearbox. If anything, the coupler will collapse even sooner than stock because of the extra length.The coupler would also install just like a stock one. I'm sure the engineers thought it out but it is also not rocket science if you understand its' function. You also stated in one of your posts that a solid coupler wouldn't be a bad idea.Have no fear, when I'm done, I'll post pics and impressions. Now, does anyone know where I can get a rebuild/reseal kit for the manual box OR if I can use a kit from the power steering box?

 

Thanks, Zack K.

[Indiana]

Replace the power steering pump with one that is electrically controlled because the "speed sensitive" factory pump cuts off power steering at 4000 rpm while you're doing 30 mph at an autocross.

 

DSM pump

[Maxzillian]

 

DSM pump

 

Thanks for the tip! I wasn't aware that some of the DSM pumps had electronic control. I had originally planned on shimming the control valve per a modification some of the DSM guys do to raise the RPM the pump cuts off at.

[zactek]

The stock coupler won't hold up and will deteriorate very fast with a manual box. You'll need a different coupler designed for manual steering.

 

That is completely false. Mitsu used the same coupler on manual and P/S boxes. Chances are that the people who used their couplers on manual boxes had bad couplers to begin with, or did the conversion improperly, thus the failure of the coupler so soon.

 

Zack K.

[Shelby]

hum i did a quest power steering swap from manual to power in an 86 D50 and i can tell you for certian that the couplyer use'd on the manual was deff not the same as use'd on the quest

later model manual steering got a lot easier to turn but nothing compair'd to a power unit , ease of turning comes with haveing to turn further not less

some of you think fast ratio steering is what they want , your wrong unless you have very strong arms and are into raceing where you have to do a lot of quick turning , don't beleave me ask any old time hot roder that thought they want'd a quick ratio steering ,it's a pain in the rear to drive as a daily and the FUN wears off very fast

 

if your quest has more then 1/4 " of play in the wheel while the engine is not runing ,,you need to check the insulateing bushing and all steering linkages , in fact the steering wheel should center it's self when you turn it slightly to the left and back to the right , what your moveing is the centering valve in the gear box,,it's made to spring back to center if everything is tight and in good condition ,, you don't use you hand to turn the wheel just a finger will do,, your checking the system free play not the system over all , to check the rest of the linkage you need to use a little more force , haveing some one else turn the wheel back and forth while you lay your hand on the joint, if there is looseness on the joint you will feel it clicking , the pass side idler arm you need to man handle it up and down,, if it moves up and down with play it is worn out,, this idler arm has to handle a lot of force so it has to be solid

[Chad]

A member here did the PS to manual swp with a NEW OEM coupler, it failed in about a month.

[Frenchi934]

 

That is completely false. Mitsu used the same coupler on manual and P/S boxes. Chances are that the people who used their couplers on manual boxes had bad couplers to begin with, or did the conversion improperly, thus the failure of the coupler so soon.

 

Zack K.

 

yeah...if you've been to the junkyard and looked at a d50 with the coupler...it isnt the same as a conquest coupler...its TOTALLY different.

[Indiana]

There's more than one reason a truck has a different coupler. The steering column is bolted into the body and the gearbox is bolted to the frame and there's a slip joint in truck columns and a truck is usually a higher ratio because of manual steering (but not always) and greater possible loads and I'm sorry to burst your bubble but that coupler in the truck is much better. If that coupler is allowed to wear out and get sloppy it can wear down the corners and strip and you turn the wheel and nothing happens. All it takes is a worn coupler and you slide into a curb and snap it then you're screwed. I had an accident once when a tie rod failed after my rim was hit and I ran up over the top of the front fender of an Eclipse and wobbled around trying to steering and hit a van head on all in about 50ft while thinking I was steering and I was only going about 15mph. This was in a 4wd truck not one of these cars. Edited December 18, 2011 by Indiana

[zactek]

 

yeah...if you've been to the junkyard and looked at a d50 with the coupler...it isnt the same as a conquest coupler...its TOTALLY different.

 

I never said the d50 used the same coupler, I said the manual boxes came with that coupler. The 79-81 Challenger/Sapporos came with the manual box and the same exact P/N coupler. Now, all this business about the coupler "failing". I can't see how it would "fail", even with all the rubber completely gone, it would still function and not render the steering completely unusable, just a lot more play. Unless the coupler cracked in half (which I don't see happening, and it still would be held together by the wire cable inside), or completely came out from the column or the gearbox shaft,I call BS. I'd like to see someone chime in that had a coupler "failure"

 

Zack K.

[ucw458]

The challenger/sapporo was a much lighter car than a SQ. Lighter car = less force on the steering coupler. SQs also have much wider tires than the previous cars. That + the weight makes it alot harder on the coupler. A SQ weighs around 900 lbs more than a challenger/sapporo. That's why the coupler fails when you put in a manual box. Edited December 19, 2011 by ucw458

[Lance_S]

The only way this can be settled.....is by a DUEL!!!!!

http://i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn376/lanceandjami/chipmunkduel.jpg

[Lance_S]

It could be argued that not all 900 lbs is over the front of the drivetrain. So it you split it in half, you would only have to pull 450 lbs out of the front end. That can be done by just removing the EGR, precat and the aircon. :-)

[Komeuppance]

The challenger/sapporo was a much lighter car than a SQ. Lighter car = less force on the steering coupler. SQs also have much wider tires than the previous cars. That + the weight makes it alot harder on the coupler. A SQ weighs around 900 lbs more than a challenger/sapporo. That's why the coupler fails when you put in a manual box.

 

Sap's weigh around 2400lbs. 500lbs lighter than an SQ.

 

-Robert