Manual steering gearbox?

[zactek]

The pins act that way when being removed because of the dampened coupler that requires being compressed for the pins to come out. Thus why it disengages in an accident.

Reliability and lower maintenance are yet to be seen. Post again after 40K miles are on it.

The spline clamp method to connect a manual system is not a good idea. Again, look at any aftermarket manual steering coupler. All have thick steel and set-screw fastening. Yours is prone to cracking under the clamp. You won't know it has happened until it is too late. So, lets add, 'much more dangerous' to your list.

Normal driving like an old lady is fine as far as steering. Performance driving with any tight curves such as autocross, road track, etc... can pull the wheel out of anyone's hands, no matter how strong we think we are. It is also much slower to turn without the assist, and can leave the car off of the track.

Parking is fine, but will tend to stress the weaker column shaft (made for power assist) and bend it. I've already seen one bent with power steering working on a StarQuest. Could be it had the harder yet to steer, not working power steering system at one time, and that bent the shaft.

Yes, your lighter weight, skinnier tires, flatbody car are advantages to help manual steering. You might not have any problems, but I would certainly check for cracking under the coupler clamp every few thousand miles.

Let us know what the actual weight of your car is. The CBRII car weighs 2750 with a half tank of gas.

 

Tim, AGAIN, the car came from the factory with the SAME coupler and column as the P/S system. I don't see how or why the splines would crack, unless someone didn't tighten the clamp properly. I guess we'll see about the reliability once I rack up some miles.The steering isn't slow at all, in fact, it's way more responsive and crisp, it doesn't feel like you have to turn the wheel a lot at all.

Bending column shafts? Cracking splines? Jumping knuckles? I don't know who you've been dealing with that works on cars, but all the above sound like they didn't know what they were doing, installing parts wrong or not maintaning things properly.

 

I would love to know where I can get mine weighed, just don't know where..... And how exactly does the CBRII car weigh 2750? What have you done to it??Please list some mods and enlighten us

Short of gutting the interior, mine has everything gone....

 

Zack K.

[Funky Phil]

Zack, Any grain mill should be able to give you a weight. 2750 is very doable especially with a narrowbody.

Hope the manual steering works well for you. I intend to swap mine over if I have any issues with my PS. But I have been very lucky ever since I threatened it a couple years back.

 

Sent you a PM

[dmyers151]

Most scrap yards will let you drive up on the big scale also.

[Lance_S]

local dumps as well. We have a large disposal site locally and everything is weighed that goes in and out.

[The Rabbit1]

or a truck stop, should only run about $8 and you get a printout. Edited April 25, 2012 by The Rabbit1

[zactek]

Thanks a lot guys, I'll check the local places you all mentioned, I really want to know what mine weighs now, it's been on a steady diet for years now

 

Zack K.

[zactek]

The pins act that way when being removed because of the dampened coupler that requires being compressed for the pins to come out. Thus why it disengages in an accident.

 

Actually, Tim, I think you misread my post. I said the "second" pin, meaning one was already out. In an accident, those pins would still stay there; the metal sleeve and rubber boot around them would keep them there..

Even compressed, and greased, those pins are hard to come out. Who told you they disengage in an accident? Have you ever taken out one of these couplers yourself, Tim?

 

BTW, I still love my new steering, and contrary to what people believed or think, there is absolutely no vibration thru the steering wheel at all, just good feedback.

 

Zack K.

Edited April 27, 2012 by zactek

[CaliConquestAlex]

Zack, I'm purchasing all of the parts and I'll be doing this swap in the near future. Edited April 26, 2012 by CaliConquestAlex

[Tim_C.]

Yes, I have had several columns out and removed couplers before. The manual even says to put a load on the coupler to remove the pins with a magnet, thus the reason they come out if the pitman arm gets hit on the bottom, or the gear box shears the bolts. The rubber outer shell will not hold the pins in. It is designed to buckle the shell and release the pins in such an accident, and they are fairly frequent. It happens usually when a car is run off of the road and hits a protrusion such as a curb, etc... Years and years of safety research is being thrown aside when you do what you did.

 

What that does is redirect the rearward load that starts toward the driver, to a sideward load, to essentially not continue to push the column rearward. The collapsible column is made to work in conjunction with a collapsing coupler. I've had columns out of many a car too.

 

Any more feedback than stock = vibration. You might not be able to feel the added vibration as much, but I garantee the coupler does. A dampened coupler is required to relieve the stress on it and therefore not cause it to crack at the thin metal spline area. Again, there is no thin spline sold like that for manual steering. Especially for our widebody car that tends to stress the coupler.

 

As for reliable and maintenance free, my '83 daily driver has 184K miles on the power steering. The fluid looks clean,so I haven't changed it, but everything is original, pump, hoses, gearbox, etc... What more could anyone ask for? I know your set-up will not last that long without issues with that coupler. I have very respnsive steering on both of my '83's, and my '85. My widebodies are responsive, but far less feel like what you are talking about that you got with your manual.

 

I'm just one who is careful about what I encourage others to do. Their life and the lives of other drivers depend on it. I don't sell gearboxes either. Yet anyway! You can say that you don't plan to drive it that much, but what about the people you are encouraging to put manual on theirs? They, and even you can sell you car to someone who drives it all the time. Roads play a factor too. Out here in Colorado, we can have a new pothole pop up at any time due to the frequent hot / cold cycles. We have old roads too, that are pretty rough and will transfer more vibration than new city roads.

 

This is all coming from someone (me) who likes manual steering. I like the feel of a manual for a casual driver. I drove a manual steering '66 Chevy II Nova for many years. However, it is not for performance driving, especially with that smaller steering wheel we have, and the weak column that is made for power assist. My Nova had a strong column and a big wheel that won't yank out of your hands when cornering.

[zactek]

Yes, I have had several columns out and removed couplers before. The manual even says to put a load on the coupler to remove the pins with a magnet, thus the reason they come out if the pitman arm gets hit on the bottom, or the gear box shears the bolts. The rubber outer shell will not hold the pins in. It is designed to buckle the shell and release the pins in such an accident, and they are fairly frequent. It happens usually when a car is run off of the road and hits a protrusion such as a curb, etc... Years and years of safety research is being thrown aside when you do what you did.

 

What that does is redirect the rearward load that starts toward the driver, to a sideward load, to essentially not continue to push the column rearward. The collapsible column is made to work in conjunction with a collapsing coupler. I've had columns out of many a car too.

 

Any more feedback than stock = vibration. You might not be able to feel the added vibration as much, but I garantee the coupler does. A dampened coupler is required to relieve the stress on it and therefore not cause it to crack at the thin metal spline area. Again, there is no thin spline sold like that for manual steering. Especially for our widebody car that tends to stress the coupler.

 

As for reliable and maintenance free, my '83 daily driver has 184K miles on the power steering. The fluid looks clean,so I haven't changed it, but everything is original, pump, hoses, gearbox, etc... What more could anyone ask for? I know your set-up will not last that long without issues with that coupler. I have very respnsive steering on both of my '83's, and my '85. My widebodies are responsive, but far less feel like what you are talking about that you got with your manual.

 

I'm just one who is careful about what I encourage others to do. Their life and the lives of other drivers depend on it. I don't sell gearboxes either. Yet anyway! You can say that you don't plan to drive it that much, but what about the people you are encouraging to put manual on theirs? They, and even you can sell you car to someone who drives it all the time. Roads play a factor too. Out here in Colorado, we can have a new pothole pop up at any time due to the frequent hot / cold cycles. We have old roads too, that are pretty rough and will transfer more vibration than new city roads.

 

This is all coming from someone (me) who likes manual steering. I like the feel of a manual for a casual driver. I drove a manual steering '66 Chevy II Nova for many years. However, it is not for performance driving, especially with that smaller steering wheel we have, and the weak column that is made for power assist. My Nova had a strong column and a big wheel that won't yank out of your hands when cornering.

 

Tim, I feel like I'm talking to a wall here. You contradict yourself: First you say that car companies have decades of experience with R&D and professional engineers. Then, after I've said numerous times that the manual columns and couplers are the same as the P/S ones (listed as same P/N's in the factory parts manuals) and came that way from the factory, you say that they're too weak for P/S use. So which is is? Did the factory engineers make a mistake and made these parts weak? Or YOU just know better?

 

When I said feedback, I meant that the steering is way more responsive, with no vibration whatsoever, so I don't see how the coupler would see more vibration, does it oscilate at a different frequency than the rest of the car? Flaming River still sells manual steering boxes and solid couplers without any damping, and being aluminum they're naturally thicker, or possibly made that way for a heavier car.

 

I don't know about the rest of the people on here, but for me, the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages of manual steering, next to nothing in maintenance.I had a completely original P/S system (except for SS braided hoses) for 188K, and my gearbox started leaking.

 

I did not encourage anyone to go out and convert to manual, I'm simply stating what I've done, hopefully people can make their own educated decisions and do what they want with their cars given the right info.

 

Out here in NYC we got some messed up roads, and I have yet to feel and negative effects or my wheel being yanked out of my hands and I have a 13in wheel.

I don't understand why you say it's not for performance driving, it's not slow at all, and I have a pretty "spirited" style of driving. In fact, I feel more safe, stable and controlled when a quick lane change or a fast jerk of the wheel is needed.

 

I weighed all the parts, and between the difference of the weight of the boxes (4.6 Lbs) and all the lines, fluid, pump,bracket, and gearbox, there is a 17.2 Lb weight savings.

 

Tim, sometimes I feel like you're trying to be right JUST to be right, OR feel like you got the last word.....OR there is some other underlying issue stemming from your deep-down-seated hatred of manual steering, lol

 

Oh, and you never said exactly what you have taken off the CBRII car to make it so light....

 

Zack K.

[zactek]

Having no luck finding ANY place that has a scale, tried sand/concrete/construction places, the one scrap yard that has a scale won't do it, because they say they're not "DOT-certified" meh... I've heard some moving companies use scales....might try that next. The only ones I can find even close to NYC (truck weighing stations) are 2 1/2 hours away on the Thruway..... :mad:

 

Zack K.

[Tim_C.]

I hope your experiment goes well for you, but it is an experiment that will take years to prove anything from unless of course it breaks sooner than that.

No, no contradiction. For one, you are comparing apples to oranges. The same part number part came on a much different car and there is really no proof whatsoever that it really did come on a StarQuest of any kind. Even so, it was a much different car, lighter and different suspension all the way around. It was also a throw away car that is not worthy of rebuilding for many other reasons, and not made to last very long, including the steering.

Secondly, and a big one is that yours is not dampened, and that is what causes the metal fatigue to crack the thin area. Proven fact, not just by the years of research, but racers and the like who have experimented with the exact thing you are experimenting with. Your project is an experiment that has flawed design that is proven flawed. Yes, and the aluminum ones don't have a clamped fastener like your experiment does.

 

No hatred for manual steeering. I just don't condone doing it wrong and tell others to do it when none of us know the true extent or ramifications to what you have done in particular. You have the last word, you are driving it so that convinces you that nothing is wrong until it breaks.

 

What I mean by performance driving is cornering hard right, and then hard left, lock to lock sometimes, or if the tail end comes out and you need to correct. You watch the wheel be torn right out from your hands with a manual box. Plus, it is much slower to go lock to lock like perfromance driving conditions sometimes require. Even the best race drivers can't handle the fatigue of manual steering. Smaller movements like you mention are a different feel that many people like including me. Steering wheel sizes are normally larger on manual cars too. Have we seen what size wheels came on the cars you claim had that coupler? Even if they are small, they are for that different car that had no turbo, was less heavy duty, small brakes, etc...

 

I never did anything to intentionally remove weight on the CBRII. In fact, there is a 30 pound plate under the back seat where the swivel seat was mounted. I left it in. It does have no AC (w/small alternator only bracket now), no ABS, and no under dash pad, but that's about it. I had a lightened flywheel to put on it, but it just happened to be there so I used it. 2.5" DP, gutted 2nd cat, and straight stock pipe with no muffler. I did not do anything intentional to lighten it, but it does have less parts to be lighter. Oh, and I did put an intercooler on it.

 

You can try a recycle center for metals like copper, etc... My small town has one. You should be able to talk that one place into doing it for you, and they can just write it down on a piece of scrap paper. Nothing official. Or, bring something to recycle and use the car to bring it. They weigh before and after to know how much to pay you for the copper, alumninum, etc...

[The Rabbit1]

Having no luck finding ANY place that has a scale, tried sand/concrete/construction places, the one scrap yard that has a scale won't do it, because they say they're not "DOT-certified" meh... I've heard some moving companies use scales....might try that next. The only ones I can find even close to NYC (truck weighing stations) are 2 1/2 hours away on the Thruway..... :mad:

 

Zack K.

go to the scrap yard and tell them it's for personal info, they think your using it for some sort of claim.

[zactek]

I hope your experiment goes well for you, but it is an experiment that will take years to prove anything from unless of course it breaks sooner than that.

No, no contradiction. For one, you are comparing apples to oranges. The same part number part came on a much different car and there is really no proof whatsoever that it really did come on a StarQuest of any kind. Even so, it was a much different car, lighter and different suspension all the way around. It was also a throw away car that is not worthy of rebuilding for many other reasons, and not made to last very long, including the steering.

Secondly, and a big one is that yours is not dampened, and that is what causes the metal fatigue to crack the thin area. Proven fact, not just by the years of research, but racers and the like who have experimented with the exact thing you are experimenting with. Your project is an experiment that has flawed design that is proven flawed. Yes, and the aluminum ones don't have a clamped fastener like your experiment does.

 

No hatred for manual steeering. I just don't condone doing it wrong and tell others to do it when none of us know the true extent or ramifications to what you have done in particular. You have the last word, you are driving it so that convinces you that nothing is wrong until it breaks.

 

What I mean by performance driving is cornering hard right, and then hard left, lock to lock sometimes, or if the tail end comes out and you need to correct. You watch the wheel be torn right out from your hands with a manual box. Plus, it is much slower to go lock to lock like perfromance driving conditions sometimes require. Even the best race drivers can't handle the fatigue of manual steering. Smaller movements like you mention are a different feel that many people like including me. Steering wheel sizes are normally larger on manual cars too. Have we seen what size wheels came on the cars you claim had that coupler? Even if they are small, they are for that different car that had no turbo, was less heavy duty, small brakes, etc...

 

Jeez Tim, what you state is merely all opinion, not facts. The Starion DID come with manual steering, and a few cars JUST as heavy; THAT is why what I'm doing is NOT an experiment. The coupler DOES NOT have to be dampened, look at any U-joint manual coupler, where's the dampening? There at LEAST 2 dozen people out there that have converted to manual steering, they just happen to not chime in on this topic because not ALL Starquest owners are on this forum. You say that certain year Starions were "throwaway" cars. Just because there weren't many, or they didn't enter the U.S. market means nothing; again, mere opinion.

 

Again, I've driven mine and tried a few quick/ emergency maneuvers in an open space (with no traffic)and feel no detrimental effects.

It's not slow at all, at any speed above 5Mph, it feels almost like P/S (and I have a 13in. wheel) Speaking of that, most cars in the eighties had big wheels, lol I dunno,it's working for me maybe because I have the physique for it.

 

To shed some more light on this whole subject, why don't we ask Chad (who has a a factory-prepped racing Starion FROM THE FACTORY)to snap some pics of his MANUAL steering and coupler, HMMMMM?

 

Zack K.

Edited May 6, 2012 by zactek

[Chad]

it was modified in the race shop, not a factory setting. It's also 500 pounds lighter than stock. Not sure what value there is in comparing that car.

[zactek]

I doubt it's 500 lbs lighter than stock. Whether modified at the factory or not, it has manual steering,right? Why don't you humor us and post a pic of that coupler anyway?

 

Zack K.

[Chad]

The whole unibody was acid dipped, unibody panels in the rear have been removed or "swiss-cheesed". It's a unibody with a chromoly cage, motor and trans, not much else. even the front and rear sub frames were acid dipped and zinc'd for weight reduction. If you've ever parted a car out to unibody level, you'll know this is a realistic figure.

 

I don't like the way it's steering feels, but it also has a 12" quick release steering wheel, and a very different seating posisition (further forward and higher). feels nothing like a stock car.

[Fawkes]

I'd appreciate it if my posts aren't deleted.

[Chad]

they are deleted when you advertize a banned members serivces.

[CaliConquestAlex]

Hey Zack,

 

Any updates on how the car is driving with the manual swap? I just purchased a mighty max manual box and I'll be doing this in the near future....just need to figure out where I'm going to get an extended coupler.

Edited June 6, 2012 by CaliConquestAlex

[zactek]

Hey Zack,

 

Any updates on how the car is driving with the manual swap? I just purchased a mighty max manual box and I'll be doing this in the near future....just need to figure out where I'm going to get an extended coupler.

 

Well, there's really nothing to say other than what I've already said when I first did it, I'm at around 470 miles on it so far... The steering feels precise with no play in the steering wheel, nothing is cracking or becoming loose and the wheel is not getting jerked out of my hands; I almost forgot I did this......except when parking sometimes, you do have to put in a little effort. The trick is to keep the car rolling just a little to lessen the friction.

You won't find an extended coupler, lol, you have to make one, that was what was keeping me from doing the swap until I figured it out. i'm sure there's other ways of doing what i did, but so far it's working for me and I see nothing wrong with it.

 

Zack K.

[zactek]

Just wanted to chime in and report that after about 1400 miles there are no loose bolts, cracks in the coupler, or any adverse/sloppy steering conditions. I almost forgot I did the swap

 

Zack K.

[zactek]

Over 4000 miles on the coupler and still no problem. No vibrations, loss of control, looseness, etc.

 

Zack K.