zactek Posted December 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 The reason you weren't asking for advice is the same reason you got it. The only misinformation on this thread is from you, and lots of it. You said what I posted about the coupler disentegrating with manual steering was "completely false". I was ready to let that go because it is obvious to everyone that you don't know what you are talking about. Read the posts that followed your statement to know what I said is true, and how you are wrong about it.No, you obviously weren't aware of it because your information was wrong.I hate to tell you, but your life is not a rehearsal, so yes, it can easily be final if steering goes bad and no, you may not get a second chance to 'go back to PS'.PQ even offered the full swap for you, but you won't even take that. That was the answer that you were looking for in the first place, but you turned it down and seem to crave the attention you are getting from pushing for something different, and not necessarily better. Do it yourself in 2 days or less, and come up with an upgrade to offer the community in the same amounnt of time. Or take advice from people who are genuinely trying to help you in the way you really need it. Whether you like it or not, does not outweigh the value of your life so please understand at least that, and that people are trying to help you realize when you are in over your head.Do the 3M fix. That might hold your manual box, but just because it will withstand accidents doesn't mean that is very safe either. It just means it will hold up the same as a welded one would, albeit a lot better to drive with less vibration. I love it when people that don't know what they're talking about tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I have offered no wrong information and when you show me a pic of an actual failed coupler, maybe I'll believe you, it's all heresay for now.The reason I didn't want PQ's column was because I thought it was an unnecessary expense and more time consuming with regard to what I'm attempting.Most of the solutions I have for my car are too time consuming/one-offs and I don't have the time to make multiple ones.I do not crave attention, the things I create function and speak for themselves, otherwise my Starion wouldn't be on the road for the 16 years I have owned it. What's neccessarily better for me is up to me to decide.I value my life and have not done anything so far to jeopardize it. Way over my head? NO, that was when I was rebuilding the whole front of the body of my car, rebuilding the engine and wiring up the FIP, all of which are running flawlessly.I have no idea of what a 3M fix is, maybe you can educate me.I'm waiting to get the manual box to compare to my P/S box to get the proper length for the coupler extension, I would post pics but it's incomplete so far. It will be TIG'd and will be as strong as the stock one. Once it's done, it should take me less than a day to put it all in and the vibration doesn't bother me, I already have Poly EVERYTHING in the car. Tim, I can copy and paste, too, and the standards 203 and 204 do not apply in my situation, because I'm not modifying the column in ANY way, it will still collapse in an accident. ALL I'm doing is extending the coupler (which has no bearing on frontal impact)and bolting on a different box.Oh, and the answer I was looking for still is "where can I find a manual box?"Don't be upset Tim, it'll be ok Zack K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted December 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) I'd just like to say...... If you take the time to source the parts, and properly rebuild your OEM linkage, and properly bleed and adjust the factory box...as long as you have a good coupler, you will be SHOCKED at how well it steers. My car steers perfectly. As a former driveability technician, I like to think that my definition of "perfectly" means something. If it doesn't to you, that's dandy too. Tim Believe it or not, I have NO problem with the way my car steers right now, I have very little play in the steering wheel and a little leak from the rear of the box.Instead of getting another P/S box and a coupler that'll probably be just as tired as mine, I figured I'd kill 2 birds with one stone and put in a box with very little chance of leaking/less parts/hoses and a stronger coupler. I'm driving the car now while getting all the parts together for the swap. Zack K. Edited December 22, 2011 by zactek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
89PalermoSHP Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 (edited) no one ever does.... apparently my sarcasm was a little too subtle. Edited December 22, 2011 by 89PalermoSHP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance_S Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 Zack, I linked you one on ebay. That is your best bet most likely. I think if someone on the board had one they would have spoken up. You could try and post it in the parts wanted section tho. L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted December 22, 2011 Report Share Posted December 22, 2011 apparently my sarcasm was a little too subtle. I saw it as sarcasam, but the reply seemed too perfect a fit to leave alone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted December 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 I think if someone on the board had one they would have spoken up. They have spoken up, I've just been waiting for them to send it. And, it's a PQ box. Zack K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FijiPhil Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 They have spoken up, I've just been waiting for them to send it. And, it's a PQ box. Zack K. ZOMG ITS THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted February 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 Well, I've got a manual box, it's all cleaned up and ready for paint. I've been working on the extended/welded coupler and figured I'd show them so you see what's inside. It's not welded or finished yet .The finished version should have another sleeve on the outside holding everything together. Probably overkill, but I'd rather not have it come apart, hehe. http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/7893/spics003.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.us http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/7008/spics004.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.us http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/7884/spics005.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 That is completely false. Mitsu used the same coupler on manual and P/S boxes. Chances are that the people who used their couplers on manual boxes had bad couplers to begin with, or did the conversion improperly, thus the failure of the coupler so soon. Zack K. This is misinformation from you Zack, with both Shelby and Chad telling you that you were wrong. Where is my misinformation? There are other examples with you saying the coupler can't deteriorate, etc..., with others (not even me) telling you that you are wrong about that too. All misinformation from you dood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 The stock coupler won't hold up and will deteriorate very fast with a manual box. You'll need a different coupler designed for manual steering. Welding that coupler might just send the column up your rear in an accident too. It is designed to break there, thus not continuing the force and driving the column at the driver. On a bit of a sidenote. I'm not sure I agree with the above statement. Not with the fact that it may be loaded more on the manual gearbox (that may be the case), but with the safety issue of welding. I have put a considerable amount of thought into the 'need' for the steering coupler. The only reasoning that I can induce for the coupler is a vibration isolator. See the photos below of the column shaft itself. The ribbed portion addresses the safety issue for the steering system. The ribbed portion is made to crush on a front end impact. The coupler won't sheer, it won't crush, etc. It may shatter but not prior to the steering column itself. http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/medium/DSC06476.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 There are other reasons for flex there besides impact separation. Any vibration directly transfered to the steering column from the box will find the weakest area and start to crack. I suspect it happening to the splined area of the coupler if you weld it solid like that. If you need pictures to believe the couplers will fail, then why have you gone to the opposite extreme and plan to weld it ten times to Sunday and then sleeve it and weld it again? You contradict yourself in this thread many times. You don't need to prove anything to anyone on here. People are truly trying to help you but your pride is keeping you from listening. That's how mistakes are made to endanger yourself and others. It is good to have new ideas and try them, but I beg of you to test your car on an autocross track a few times before you take it out on the street. At least then you can see what happens to it before unwittingly endangering the lives of others. I truly hope you don't lose control of that car to hurt yourself, or worse, hurt someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 On a bit of a sidenote. I'm not sure I agree with the above statement. Not with the fact that it may be loaded more on the manual gearbox (that may be the case), but with the safety issue of welding. I have put a considerable amount of thought into the 'need' for the steering coupler. The only reasoning that I can induce for the coupler is a vibration isolator. See the photos below of the column shaft itself. The ribbed portion addresses the safety issue for the steering system. The ribbed portion is made to crush on a front end impact. The coupler won't sheer, it won't crush, etc. It may shatter but not prior to the steering column itself. http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/data/500/medium/DSC06476.JPGYou are assuming the impact is straight in line with the column. A misaligned impact is more common and why the coupler is designed to separate. The ribs are for just in case the impact is direct, there is less chance the coupler will break the force toward the driver, so the column will continue to move toward the driver and must have some impact suppression to keep the entire assembly from breaking off and ending up in the driver's chest. Still, that suppression only goes so far before it still breaks loose and takes out the driver. A misaligned movement will break at the coupler and that is one reason why it is there, other than vibration which is another reason. But the vibration issue isn't only for driver feel, but to keep parts from cracking and eventually breaking off. The ribs are designed for use in conjunction with a coupler that will give some even in a direct impact. What will give first? Those ribs, or the rubber? They definitely rely on the coupler popping loose on a less than straightforward impact.Welding the coupler now means that any impact will directly transfer to the column shaft and further toward the driver. All of your hope is now on those ribs, which again, will only move so far. A misaligned impact will most likely send the entire column assembly pointing a bit off center of the driver, toward the door or between the seats, but it will for sure move further in that direction than without a coupler, and who knows if it will miss the driver or not. I'd hate to bet my life on that. The ribs will not properly collapse with a steel coupler hit at a misaligned angle for sure. It will rip the assembly off and send it flying.My point all along: All of these "I've thought about this a long time" statements put innocent people at risk if wrong. Steering is one thing to be safe rather than sorry, I'm sorry, but anyone who changes it needs to realize that they are messing with something that people have thought and engineered on since the early 1900's. Who thinks they have thought more than that? Whoever they are, they are wrong.I've never said manual steering can't be done correctly and safely as far as accidents are concerned. I'm only saying this isn't the way to go. There are other issues not addressed too. We are assuming the wheel itself will be good enough for manual steering. It is built to collapse too. Racers for years have seen collapsible steering wheels not hold up with manual steering. that is also a place where cracks will start if vibrations are sent to it, on the collapsible area of the wheel. There are yet more issues not being properly addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 It is an interesting argument but I am still not fully grasping it. The thickness of the steel in the coupler is massive compared to the thickness of the column at the ribbed area putting aside the dampening with the rubber in between. You are not going to rid the coupler of the rubber core without shattering or sheering the steel on the coupler. The only way it would seperate is if the steering box was pulled towards the front of the vehicle putting pure tension between the two steel segments of the coupler. I fully feel that a load high enough to shatter the steel of the coupler would be so high that it wouldn't matter if it was welded or if it had rubber in it. If anything the weld may weeken the joint and cause it to shatter before you wanted it to (this was PQ's argument about welding the coupler..actually making the coupler more susceptible to shattering) Just putting a little pressure on the steering column to hold it still in the bench vise is enough to deform the ribs. I don't see how an impact in any direction (besides tension) would cause the coupler to seperate prior to the column deforming. That is the purpose of the ribs, to not only crush on front impact but allow the column to bend on a side or skewed impact. Regardless of the direction of impact, the ribs on the column won't put the steering wheel into your chest. My parts car had a right front impact crash at one time. Not enough to total the car but enough to bend the frame rail pretty good. Upon disassembly of the steering system, the column had a kink in it. Spinning the steering shaft on the table clearly showed that it was no longer straight. The kink was in the ribbed portion. On the same column was the coupler...the coupler was in perfect condition. Not that this is an example of an extreme crash or anything, it does show that the column is much more susceptible than the coupler. kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 It's the pins Kevin, not the coupler material itself. The pins come out when unloaded, which is what happens when it gets impacted. In that case it can come competely apart, but really doesn't need to do its job. I'm not saying the ribs will put the column into the driver's chest. Where did I say that? So you are saying that it doesn't matter if the coupler is solid or not, but I definitely disagree. Any idiot can weld it up to be stronger, but there are reasons why it isn't. Disregarding those reasons is not a good idea. I am just pointing a few of them out. One accident example says nothing about the design other than the ribs did their job. How do you know the coupler didn't help by collapsing a little and then coming back. It doesn't have to explode either. I'm just saying it can and will let completely loose depending on the characteristics of the impact. Any pressure at all is unloading it some where the rubber not only cushions the blow, but diverts it enough to go right back where it was before impact and directly affect the force transfered to the column. You would never be able to tell. It is very clear that all the angles to the design can't be thought out by one guy with a welder. Sorry, but it risks innocent lives and I'll be one sure to report any car I see come into the shop with some BS like that on it. And hopefully so will any alignment specialist when he goes to center the steering wheel and sees it. Of course it will be neatly covered up by a rubber boot so it and the cracks that will appear can't be seen. Until, eventually, it will crack up and break off when you need it most, in the middle of a turn at speed. Are there holes in my theory? I'm not the one presenting a new design, so I am not theorizing as such. If I were to design it all myself, I'm sure there would be the same or more issues than Zack's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I'm starting to understand your point a little more. Say if there was a side impact directly to the left from tire. The side load would crush the car and push the box away from the column. The column would bend and the resultant force within the steering system would be a tensile load in the coupler. This would essentially do what I originally thought couldn't happen...the coupler would see a tensile load and seperate in half (ie the pins would seperate as you say). The top would stay on the column and the bottom would stay on the box. In that case, the rubber would indeed play a part...it would just rip and seperate faster than any steel. But what would happen in this case? Wouldn't that bend the column and pull the steering wheel thru the dash towards the engine compartment? I guess there are an infinite amount of loading conditions depending on the trajectory of the impact, so its hard to imagine. Ok, I'm going to agree with you, lol. It was designed for a purpose and that purpose may be of 'safety' rather than 'vibration'. I still believe that welding the coupler is much more safe than driving a car with a deteriorated one. I don't think anyone could argue that theory. If you can't buy a new part and aren't lucky enough to find a good coupler at a yard or thru here, welding is really the only choice. Well I guess there is still the window weld option....I have mixed feelings on that. Tim, This is a much more intellectual argument than what I got from PQ years back, lol. kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I apologize for being a bit short with my responses. I'm a bit overwhelmed with things I need to get done in the middle of this, so my obvious bad attitude is indeed all my fault! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I have two couplers laying on my bench now...but they are in good condition. Not going to damage them. I wish I had a bad one that I could pull apart and revisit. You got me thinking Tim. I'm in the process of rebuilding the steering column for my blue quest now (hence the picture above). So my mind is on steering at the moment. And yes...I have a good factory coupler for her. kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I apologize for being a bit short with my responses. I'm a bit overwhelmed with things I need to get done in the middle of this, so my obvious bad attitude is indeed all my fault! You are not being short at all. This is a good conversation. You know I always respect your technical advise/views. I can't help put revisit my own views on this matter after seeing you being adament on yours. The funny thing is that I'm in the middle of designing a spline coupler here at work (for something totally unrelated to automobiles). kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 10, 2012 Report Share Posted February 10, 2012 I personaly wouldn't trust anything in my steering system that needed welding, unless it was re-hardened and propperly tempered. Metal fatigue in the HAZ is a given, it's just a matter of time/force. Only forged castings and/or milled billet parts belong in the load-handeling portion of a steering system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 Yeah Kev. It is good for you to bring light to the entire column such as the ribs, collapsible steering wheel, etc.. The bigger the picture, the more we see. I'm sure your engineering degree helps you to see exactly how the entire system interacts with each other and how they will act in various types of accidents. I would still hate to think we know enough to slap a manual box on and weld the coupler and call it good.Your experience with seeing how easy the ribs collapse on the column opens up another set of concerns about using it in conjunction with a manual box. The few manual columns I've seen were solid without ribs. Albeit they were 1984 and older, so I'd have to think even those are better now and with some type of ribbing. I don't normally remove the steering column parts like you have in your picture! Looks like fun! I would address the travel of the tilt mechanism binding on the column housing framework before you install it all back on the car if you haven't already.A beautifully working non-rubber spline coupler designed for the load from a manual box on our car would be much better than welding up something. I still wouldn't run it myself though. I think the true solution for Zack and anyone who really wants a manual box is to get a better aftermarket coupler made for such an application, and a column, wheel, and all parts that are made for it.I admit the manual boxes I've seen don't have such a spongy, deterioration prone coupler, which is very desireable for piece of mind. I should know because my coupler had very little rubber left and was impossible to drive when I bought the car. The person before was driving an accident waiting to happen for sure. I first jumped to the conclusion that a manual box with a solid coupler was the answer to fixing it, but mechanic friends with over 150 years experience between them convinced me not to do it and I fixed it right by simply replacing with a good used one from a 60K mile car. Never looked back with no problems since and nice smooth power steering.My experience with the coupler jumping on the one car, then another car I bought had a 'manual steering upgrade' where the idiot owner simply removed the pump and plugged the lines, have made me a bit adamant that it be done correctly. Ever since my favorite driver Ayrton Senna died from what they believe to have been a failed steering column most likely the coupler, I pay closer attention to it too. Then my mechanic friends with their horror stories and lawsuits they've seen about failed steering, have kind of forged my beliefs to be more rigid in my stance than I should be I'm sure. But again, my rigidness is on the safe side, where lives are safe in a known safe and tested environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted February 11, 2012 Report Share Posted February 11, 2012 (edited) Our gear ratio on the power assit box is 14.25:1 The Starion manual steering FLAT SIDER body cars, it is as high as 21.2:1 Edited February 11, 2012 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted February 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hmmm, so Starions did come with manual steering and the same coupler, interesting.Here's a pic with the coupler welded, slightly ground to accept the outer sleeve: http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/415/spics001.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 17, 2012 Report Share Posted February 17, 2012 no one has ever found one state side, though it was supposedly an option (stripped base model) overseas. These stripped models supposedly even had hand crank windows and a solid rear axle. By changing the ratio from quick (14.25:1) to slow (21.2:1) ratio steering, the tortional strain on the coupler was retained at a realitivly low level. The ratio of the box dictates the loading on the coupler more than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zactek Posted February 20, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 20, 2012 no one has ever found one state side, though it was supposedly an option (stripped base model) overseas. These stripped models supposedly even had hand crank windows and a solid rear axle. By changing the ratio from quick (14.25:1) to slow (21.2:1) ratio steering, the tortional strain on the coupler was retained at a realitivly low level. The ratio of the box dictates the loading on the coupler more than anything. Right. If you notice, the specs state a range of 17.2 to 21.2 I have no way to know which ratio manual box I have, but I have faith in the coupler once it's on. Zack K. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted February 21, 2012 Report Share Posted February 21, 2012 shouldn't be too hard to figure out, try turning the shaft, and see how many it takes to move 90*, then multiply by 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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