Manual steering gearbox?

[Tim_C.]

The alleged manual steering car was a bare bones one that was much, much lighter if it ever truly existed at all. A glorified Sapporo / Challenger model. More of a throw away car in comparison sharing very little except the name. Just because a manual shows the design in StarQuest form, doesn't mean it ever existed in one. Even so, it would have had to be pulled from production very fast for no one to ever report seeing one. Pulled for good reasons like a bad steering design. The coupler isn't necessarily the same either. A couple of the drawing shots show a considerable different look. Although the drawing may not be perfectly accurate.

That model car is one I'd have to see to believe and even then, there is no comparison with our SQ's, flat or wide.

[zactek]

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_images/master/snapback.pngTim_C., on 21 February 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

 

"The alleged manual steering car was a bare bones one that was much, much lighter if it ever truly existed at all. A glorified Sapporo / Challenger model. More of a throw away car in comparison sharing very little except the name. Just because a manual shows the design in StarQuest form, doesn't mean it ever existed in one. Even so, it would have had to be pulled from production very fast for no one to ever report seeing one. Pulled for good reasons like a bad steering design. The coupler isn't necessarily the same either. A couple of the drawing shots show a considerable different look. Although the drawing may not be perfectly accurate.

That model car is one I'd have to see to believe and even then, there is no comparison with our SQ's, flat or wide."

 

 

I like how you said "alleged" hehe.

I find it hard to believe that a company would go through the trouble of drawing diagrams and writing tech notes for a car that didn't exist. Just because no one on here ever seen one doesn't mean none were made. These cars were also on the Japanese, German,Australian, and other European markets, perhaps none made it to U.S. which doesn't necessarily mean they weren't good enough. Also, I can't believe that they designed and made a specific coupler for the Starion for those years when Challengers and Sapporos used them since '78

 

BTW, the coupler is now welded and awaiting a coat of POR-15 along with a fresh manual gearbox.

 

Zack K.

Edited February 27, 2012 by zactek

[Chad]

It's alleged, because the market it was sold in has very few english speakers, and none of those people have ever been seen on this or any other english speaking forum.

 

I know the first Nissan skyline GTR was made in the late 60's, but I've never seen one of those either. Have you? You find a manual steering starion, and you can reverse engineer it and compare it's steering system to the manual. When we say it's just an alleged option, it's cause none of us have seen it.

[Tim_C.]

http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_images/master/snapback.pngTim_C., on 21 February 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

 

"The alleged manual steering car was a bare bones one that was much, much lighter if it ever truly existed at all. A glorified Sapporo / Challenger model. More of a throw away car in comparison sharing very little except the name. Just because a manual shows the design in StarQuest form, doesn't mean it ever existed in one. Even so, it would have had to be pulled from production very fast for no one to ever report seeing one. Pulled for good reasons like a bad steering design. The coupler isn't necessarily the same either. A couple of the drawing shots show a considerable different look. Although the drawing may not be perfectly accurate.

That model car is one I'd have to see to believe and even then, there is no comparison with our SQ's, flat or wide."

Also, I can't believe that they designed and made a specific coupler for the Starion for those years when Challengers and Sapporos used them since '78

Zack K.

 

I say alleged because it is a moot point about whether it existed or not. It was a different car. Again, I will still only believe it existed if I ever see one. :)Even if it did exist, it doesn't change anything I've said about steering safety on our cars.

Since there is no comparison between the StarQuest and Sapporo, you haven't made a point with that statement. Even if they were the same coupler, it doesn't nullify the fact the steering on those cars sees a lot less stress on a smaller wheelbase, lighter car, etc... I have a Sapporo a few miles from my house that I can look at any time.

I wouldn't doubt it at all if those manuals were mostly text and drawings taken from the Sapporo and made before they fully documented the Starion. That is fairly common with car manuals and manuals in general.

[Indiana]

 

These stripped models supposedly even had hand crank windows and a solid rear axle.

 

There's the code for the cheap model its either A180 or A182 on the X model but the GX had power steering and they both appear to have been manual trans. http://mitsubishi-motors.kiev.ua/1/#catalog%3DJP%26model%3DA180%257C%26sub_model%3DA182A%26class%3DMNJ

 

http://mitsubishi-mo...sub_group%3D010

 

Here's the solid rear axle, its from Russia or some place whatever that language translates to you might find where it was sold and start looking for pictures of one.

 

http://mitsubishi-motors.kiev.ua/pictures_JP/134_0103CQ1C0T.png

Edited March 15, 2012 by Indiana

[Indiana]

and again the manual steering on the same model

 

http://mitsubishi-motors.kiev.ua/1/#catalog%3DJP%26model%3DA180%257C%26sub_model%3DA182A%26class%3DMNJ%26group%3D37%26sub_group%3D050

 

http://mitsubishi-motors.kiev.ua/pictures_JP/137_0503CS3A0T.png

[Indiana]

http://mitsubishi-motors.kiev.ua/pictures_JP/137_0203CS2A0T.png

[Indiana]

http://mitsubishi.epcdata.ru/starion/a182a/mnj/rear-axle/rear-axle-housing-shaft/

 

There were sold in Russia.

[Tim_C.]

Either Russian or Ukranian language which are both very similar but not the same. The email is in Kiev Ukraine, which was part of the Soviet Union back then.

My wife can read Russian. I'll ask her to take a look at it as most translater programs don't get it right.

 

I might actually have a couple of pics of one of those cars. LoL! Only from the outside. Some other old timerss on here might remember the pics of a dark blue '83 from an eastern block European country that had some ladies standing next to it dressed in fur if I remember right. I think I saved the pics somewhere. No detail though.

[Maxzillian]

Somewhat off topic, but I wanted to share what I have witnessed about the Sapporo...

 

I have a 1983 Dodge Challenger (Plymoth Sapporo) that is currently stripped down to a bare tub and I can confidently say that the car either fathered the Starion or was co-developed along with it.

 

The car came equipped with a carbureted 2.6 liter and a 5 speed transmission. This one in particular did have a solid axle under it, but there was a performance version of the chassis overseas that used the Starion rear suspension. Even though mine was a solid axle model, it has all the holes punched in the frame rails for the Starion IRS. The only thing it is missing is the weld nuts and strut towers.

 

The front suspension is also nearly identical to a flat sider. The only big difference is the strut housings are slightly different and use different mounts for the brakes. The car actually contributed the lower a-arms for my conversion where I put a flatty front suspension on my widebody so I could clear 8" rears all around.

 

With the chassis bare, it becomes pretty obvious that everything from the front bumper to the firewall is nearly identical. Moving back, the floor pan is the only resemblence between the two.

 

Here's some pictures just to drive home the point:

 

http://maxzillian.com/lemons/challenger4.jpg

 

Rear suspension, just to show those handy diagrams are right.

 

http://maxzillian.com/lemons/challenger12.jpg

 

After I already begin cutting out rust, but you can see how the floor pan is a direct copy.

 

http://maxzillian.com/lemons/challenger14.jpg

 

Box tubing added to replace a rusted frame rail.

http://maxzillian.com/lemons/challenger15.jpg

 

For those that are curious, I got the car for free, sans drivetrain. The plan is to rebuild it to run in a 24 Hours of Lemons race. Propulsion courtesy of a 5.7 Oldsmobile diesel.

[zactek]

 

There's the code for the cheap model its either A180 or A182 on the X model but the GX had power steering and they both appear to have been manual trans. http://mitsubishi-mo...A%26class%3DMNJ

 

http://mitsubishi-mo...sub_group%3D010

 

Here's the solid rear axle, its from Russia or some place whatever that language translates to you might find where it was sold and start looking for pictures of one.

 

http://mitsubishi-motors.kiev.ua/pictures_JP/134_0103CQ1C0T.png

I read Russian and that website is for purchasing OEM Mitsubishi parts. The manual steering came on 82-83 flatsider Starions.It doesn't tell you where they were sold, it gives you the option of searching for parts depending where the car came from (Europe, Asia, Japan, or America, LHD or RHD)

The manual gearbox is 24,000 Russian rubles (!!!!)

 

How fitting that I'm putting this on my car since I'm Russian and my wife's Ukranian, LOL

 

Zack K.

[Indiana]

Well there ya go it was at home the whole time and you didn't know it. Yes I know they sold those in different markets and the best way would be to look at the sales literature from that time period. Since they are listed in that country I'd suspect they were sold there. The service manual pages I first posted from I can look again but I believe they were an englsh version of a German manual. The manuals we use go by years, those others start out with an entry level manual then have supplements.

[Tim_C.]

My wife is Ukranian too. I spent about 5 weeks there in August of last year. We own a flat in Kiev. LoL! Went to Myrgorod for a 3 week vacation.

Those early '82 models were not turbo and weighed a lot less than ours. Still, it is pretty much the same car as the Challenger / Sapporo. If I remember right, yours is a flatty too at least.

Welding it solid will increase stress on the spline connection area. I'd be sure to check it from time to time. Another reason I know this is because a racer friend of mine removed the dampening and welded up the coupler on an old race car years ago. The spline connection on the coupler cracked all the way around and he was very fortunate that it didn't kill him. That was a drag car that only saw 75 passes a year or so.

[DieHARDmitsu.]

Hmmm, so Starions did come with manual steering and the same coupler, interesting.

Here's a pic with the coupler welded, slightly ground to accept the outer sleeve:

 

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/415/spics001.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

By grinding down the two main welds, you've actually make the newly fabbed coupler weaker. Those two circular welds are positioned at points where the two main pieces of the coupler will want to twist/stress the most under load. After grinding, it looks like there is only about 1/16 (thickness) left on the welds, if that much.

Also, I see the welds have a couple of pores and are not as solid as expected.

Was it tig welded?

 

My wife is Ukranian too. I spent about 5 weeks there in August of last year. We own a flat in Kiev. LoL! Went to Myrgorod for a 3 week vacation.

Those early '82 models were not turbo and weighed a lot less than ours. Still, it is pretty much the same car as the Challenger / Sapporo. If I remember right, yours is a flatty too at least.

Welding it solid will increase stress on the spline connection area. I'd be sure to check it from time to time. Another reason I know this is because a racer friend of mine removed the dampening and welded up the coupler on an old race car years ago. The spline connection on the coupler cracked all the way around and he was very fortunate that it didn't kill him. That was a drag car that only saw 75 passes a year or so.

How was that coupler welded?

Edited March 17, 2012 by DieHARDmitsu.

[Tim_C.]

This one was a different style, but attached to the box the same. It didn't break at the weld, but the area at the splines is where it cracked all the way through and all the way around. Under the collar that holds the splines to the box is where the cracks were and couldn't be seen unless the collar is removed.

 

Zach welded that sleeve over what you see in the picture. Chances are it will hold, but the solid coupler and added vibration moves the stress to another point that isn't necessarily made to handle vibration stress. Kev even said that with his mechanical engineering experience, that the coupler's main function is to dampen vibration. What I'm saying is that dampening is paramount to relieve the stress on the spline area of the coupler so it doesn't start cracking, etc.... The dampening isn't just to make it more pleasant for the driver.

 

I would put a new stock coupler on it to experiment with first. If it deteriorates fast, then take steps to change it for the better. Deterioration of the stock coupler is what many of us have already experienced, and we know that it is a fairly safe early warning sign that something is wrong. I am pretty sure it would deteriorate, but at least it would be ruled out first, before taking steps that may not be needed. Then start looking for a dampened set up that is beefier and made for manual steering on a heavier application. I'm sure there is something out there that can be adapted bascially the same as what Zac had to do to adapt the welded stock one.

There is actually a decent looking one on this page: http://www.jegs.com/...755269/10002/-1

 

Our stock coupler is thin metal because it is dampened. A solid coupler is always made thick and hardened to overcome the vibration stress. It would be much safer if there was a way to to strengthen the spline area, but then it would require a different way to attach it, which is why it is thin metal to begin with. Then it can use a collar to squeeze it onto the shaft. There are examples of thick metal couplers that use a set screw type of attachment instead of a collar.

[zactek]

Pic of finished coupler and stripped gearbox

 

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/7008/spics004.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[DieHARDmitsu.]

looks a bit more promising

[zactek]

looks a bit more promising

 

Thanks, the weld you see in the first pic is not the "main" weld. Even without any weld, or even a tack here and there on it would hold it because of the sleeve welded on the outside. It's just "insurance" or reinforcement if you will and keeps everything aligned.Even so, that weld on the inside is thicker than you think, even ground down.

 

You need to give me your new phone #, the current one is not working. Pm me

 

Zack K.

[DieHARDmitsu.]

Pm sent.

[zactek]

Well, the old is out and the new is in......but not without a fight The pitman arm would't come off so I disconnected the whole box with the arm and beat it off with a BFH. Then, the second pin on the coupler would't move, even though there was no rust.....wound up taking out the whole column (what I was trying to avoid) and as it came out, the coupler just fell off of it, leaving the pin on the column, which I took off with my fingers, lol. Go figure Took me over a day.....

The rubber boot over the coupler got shredded, but I have a solution in the works, will post a pic of it soon.

 

The new manual box and the coupler went in without a hitch, everything buttoned up, aligned like a glove, and I drove it for a while, being PLEASANTLY surprised. EVEN better than I expected, with very little effort while driving. Tight, precise, feeling very well connected with the car, good feedback, wheel returns to center, tracks great There IS some effort while parking, but NOWHERE as bad as a disabled P/S system. I'm a strong guy (being a NYC Transit Trackworker, hehe)so it's not an issue at all for me. Overall, I love it!! The tradeoff of a little effort to have the simplicity/reliabilty/low maintenance,tightness compared to the aging P/S system is well worth it for me.

 

Disclamer: my car is a flatbody with 205's in the front, with overall weight way south of 2800Lbs, plus I'm a strong guy, SO this might now be for everybody that has wide tires, fully weighed car or toothpicks for arms, sorry

 

Here's a pic painted with POR right before it went in.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/415/spics001.jpg

[CaliConquestAlex]

Did you have to remove any of the engine components to get the steering box or other components out?

[zactek]

Did you have to remove any of the engine components to get the steering box or other components out?

 

Well, on MY car I didn't have to remove any other components since I have no AC anything, a different gas line/filter, and aftermaket harness for the standalone ECU which isn't in the way anymore. I simply unbolted the old box, and pulled it out towards the front and then up out of the car.

 

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/4465/spics.jpg

 

Zack K.

[zactek]

Did you have to remove any of the engine components to get the steering box or other components out?

 

On a stock car:

 

1. Jack up the car

2. Put it on jackstands

3. Remove LF tire

4.Remove pitman arm from box first. (30mm socket, long breaker-bar) w/ HD, pitman puller

(if stubborn from rust, HEAT the arm to make it expand, see SOS)

5.Remove p/s hoses

6. Un-bolt couper clamp (could be rusted, too = lube splines + pry bar)

7. Un-bolt 3 retainer bolts & nuts (14mm)

8. Drops out the bottom.

9. Be cautious of the fuel line around the gear box. Better to un-bolt the fuel hose

from the filter, so the box can be dropped from the bottom.

Edited April 24, 2012 by zactek

[The Rabbit1]

(if stubborn from rust, HEAT the arm to make it expand, see SOS)

even that doesn't work sometimes, I had to get the serious MAC pitman puller to get it off with impact and all.

[Tim_C.]

Well, the old is out and the new is in......but not without a fight The pitman arm would't come off so I disconnected the whole box with the arm and beat it off with a BFH. Then, the second pin on the coupler would't move, even though there was no rust.....wound up taking out the whole column (what I was trying to avoid) and as it came out, the coupler just fell off of it, leaving the pin on the column, which I took off with my fingers, lol. Go figure <_ took me over a day.....>

The rubber boot over the coupler got shredded, but I have a solution in the works, will post a pic of it soon.

 

The new manual box and the coupler went in without a hitch, everything buttoned up, aligned like a glove, and I drove it for a while, being PLEASANTLY surprised. EVEN better than I expected, with very little effort while driving. Tight, precise, feeling very well connected with the car, good feedback, wheel returns to center, tracks great There IS some effort while parking, but NOWHERE as bad as a disabled P/S system. I'm a strong guy (being a NYC Transit Trackworker, hehe)so it's not an issue at all for me. Overall, I love it!! The tradeoff of a little effort to have the simplicity/reliabilty/low maintenance,tightness compared to the aging P/S system is well worth it for me.

 

Disclamer: my car is a flatbody with 205's in the front, with overall weight way south of 2800Lbs, plus I'm a strong guy, SO this might now be for everybody that has wide tires, fully weighed car or toothpicks for arms, sorry

The pins act that way when being removed because of the dampened coupler that requires being compressed for the pins to come out. Thus why it disengages in an accident.

Reliability and lower maintenance are yet to be seen. Post again after 40K miles are on it.

The spline clamp method to connect a manual system is not a good idea. Again, look at any aftermarket manual steering coupler. All have thick steel and set-screw fastening. Yours is prone to cracking under the clamp. You won't know it has happened until it is too late. So, lets add, 'much more dangerous' to your list.

Normal driving like an old lady is fine as far as steering. Performance driving with any tight curves such as autocross, road track, etc... can pull the wheel out of anyone's hands, no matter how strong we think we are. It is also much slower to turn without the assist, and can leave the car off of the track.

Parking is fine, but will tend to stress the weaker column shaft (made for power assist) and bend it. I've already seen one bent with power steering working on a StarQuest. Could be it had the harder yet to steer, not working power steering system at one time, and that bent the shaft.

Yes, your lighter weight, skinnier tires, flatbody car are advantages to help manual steering. You might not have any problems, but I would certainly check for cracking under the coupler clamp every few thousand miles.

Let us know what the actual weight of your car is. The CBRII car weighs 2750 with a half tank of gas.