Shelby Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 (edited) lots of noises can effect the knock sensor not just rod knock and detonation,, a worn out sloppy timeing chain guides or bal shaft chain can do it , and can rocker arm lash being way out of specs , so can the down pipe striking the block , a turbo heat shield with missing bolts can vibrate like a bietchheas will luging the engine in too tall of a gear for the rpm the engne is trying to maintain maybe the mits FSM does not say strick the block lightly near the sensor but many manuals sugest just that , i have read way too many manuals to recall the exact wording of just one in fact to the left side of the head is a flat surface of the block that you can not posibly damage , if you don't think noise will travel use a mechanics stepthascope and listen for your seld as you lightly tap the block Edited July 3, 2011 by Shelby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted July 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) i have a new OEM sensor on order .....wires broke out of old one.......20+ years, its time...i have a 88/89 igniter on hand to replace plastic one, but old plastic seems to work fine...will install new knock sensor then report back on progress.... also,Indiana, thanks for the distributor info you gave...i bought a rebuild dizzy years ago and will use your info to see exactly what i have.... eric Edited July 4, 2011 by quest4me2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) Excuse my lack of using a scanner and the pressure sensor portion refers to vehicles that have them. Like I said, it didn't say to HIT THE BLOCK it said the throttlebody so it won't matter really were you bang on it just don't hit the actual sensor. The frequency of your impact is what the ignitor will respond to so just ONE impact may not be enough. The point is that the greater the noise the greater effect that will have on changing timing. It also says to unplug the sensor to make sure that the fail-safe function happens. You think they would have a service technician banging on engine blocks and trying to look at a timing light at the same time? You can't see the timing marks from just anywhere and you have to look at those to see a change in timing and the throttlebody stud as they say is to the left and that's where you stand when looking at the timing marks. If you want to let Caliber bang on your block good, maybe he can knock a hole in your oil filter while he's at it or at least burn his arm but when the engine is running and you are trying to bang on the BLOCK its not going to be easy with the belts down there turning and the air filter can and all the heat shields in place and if its on the intake side watch out for the alternator charge wire. Good try Caliber, you fail again nobody is going to bang on the block like I said so ya I guess you are wrong again. The other "test" about the air flow sensor being unplugged, at least for 88s I've seen some do run with it unplugged and some do not. The ignitor after 87 is different so don't expect it to react in the exact same way and the ignitors as well as the distributors and governor sets (weights) changed many times over the years There are 4 plastic ignitors and 3 metal ones (83 is metal)1984 IgnitorMD071942 1985/86IgnitorMD071942MD093767 "P" series 1987IgnitorMD109942 1988/89IgnitorMD125748 Mechanical or vacuum advance shouldn't be active at idle speeds so which year dist. you are using is not supposed to matter but a change in timing from a knock signal will effect rpms so that COULD also effect the change you see if you have the rpms higher than idle when you test to see if it works. 1984DistributorMD061593Governor setMD607784Vac Adv UnitMD607785 1985/86DistributorMD061593MD093766 after 12-84 Governor setMD607784MD611368 for 3766 Vac Adv unitMD607785MD611360 for 3766 1987DistbibutorMD109937MD109938 w/intercoolerGovernor setMD607784 for 9937 MD611368 for 9938 Vac Adv UnitMD611360 1988/89DistributorMD119754Governor setMD611368Vac Adv UnitMD611769 http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/268547_1436712856004_1778479606_690615_1598523_n.jpg http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/264367_1436713696025_1778479606_690617_5386611_n.jpg http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/270691_1436714176037_1778479606_690619_11531_n.jpg http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/264698_1436714776052_1778479606_690620_2493204_n.jpg So Indy,Where am I wrong? And who ever said to hit the Detonation Sensor directly? (as depicted in your FSM caution of): "Don't do this".... DUH:lol:Indy, This is for you:You can reach the Engine Block next to the Detonation Sensor with a long rod or Socket extension and then strike that with a hammer,wrench,rock or anything else that will work to generate a signal.I gave the page number per the 1987 FSM Volume no.2. I didn't say to hit it so hard that you smack a hole in the Engine Block :lol:Common sense would dictate that Now I see that you are trying to use that against me I gave you and the members a page in the FSM that tells you how to test your Detonation Sensor. For Indy especially, and those other members who might have missed it. Here it is again: 1987 Starion Factory Service Manual Volume No.2 Page 8-157. Ignition System- Service Adjustment Procedures. No.4, Inspection of Detonation Control Function. I am sure those of you that don't have a copy of the 1987 FSM Volume no.2, can find this information by downloading the 1988 FSM from: http://www.starquestgarage.com (It might be on a different page in the 1988 FSM)But it will still be in the same section "Ignition System". Indy, I gave you the Volume and Page number from the 1987 FSM Volume no.2 earlier in this post, And I am still wrong? I give up on you.You remind me of P.Q.: "No one can give the correct answer to the membership except you". Even though Shelby,I and the 1987 Starion FSM Volume no.2 agree on how to go about testing the Detonation Sensor. Sad Bill Edited July 6, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 (edited) i have a new OEM sensor on order .....wires broke out of old one.......20+ years, its time...i have a 88/89 igniter on hand to replace plastic one, but old plastic seems to work fine. eric Mine also is the Stock original 1987 Ignitor. Never been replaced and still works fine.Failure of the plastic Ignitors could be due to weather, in other words leaving your car outside exposed to the elements or living in high humidity areas. My car has always been garaged when moisture occurs overnight and doesn't get driven in the rain or snow. Bill Edited July 6, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted August 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2011 OK, update.... i have replaced the inj clips again....measured fuel pressure at idle cold (35psi) and hot after driving 30 minutes (35psi)...dont have a long hose to check fuel pressure at boost yet....new NGK wires, new 7031 plugs....checked ALL fuel filters.....checked water temp sensor resistance when hot...... this car misses while boosting above "0" ONLY when hot....runs great cold... what next?, ignitor box (plastic) , FPR, vac advance (wouldnt this affect cold motor also? ), replace Trilogies with good stock inj's i have ? frustrated,eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 (edited) OK, update.... i have replaced the inj clips again....measured fuel pressure at idle cold (35psi) and hot after driving 30 minutes (35psi)...dont have a long hose to check fuel pressure at boost yet....new NGK wires, new 7031 plugs....checked ALL fuel filters.....checked water temp sensor resistance when hot...... this car misses while boosting above "0" ONLY when hot....runs great cold... what next?, ignitor box (plastic) , FPR, vac advance (wouldnt this affect cold motor also? ), replace Trilogies with good stock inj's i have ? frustrated,eric When does it miss? at lets say 2500 to 3000 rpms. Is it a constant miss or more of a :"It does it for a split second and goes away" sort of thing?? If that is the case, Check the Vacuum Advance. I think your fuel pressure is a little low at 35 psi. Especially with a 650 primary and a 950 secondary (Trilogys Aftermarket injector sizes). Think about when the secondary comes in (2500 rpms) To find out for sure, you need to check your Fuel Pressure ON BOOST!!!! At 35 psi Idle FP running 10 psi boost, you should see 45 psi Fuel Pressure on your FP Gauge on Full Boost. If you don't see that.....You are a candidate for a Adjustable RRFPR. Turn it up to at least 38 psi. Post back on your results. Bill Edited August 9, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted August 9, 2011 Report Share Posted August 9, 2011 This thread is all muddy and full of some BS. Do you have OEM injectors to put back in or not? Do you own a vacuum gauge? They are like five bucks if not go buy one. You've got a timing light? You have a hand vacuum pump? You can test your vac. adv with the pump and hold it at different readings and while the vac. adv. is moving watch the timing light. You need to put the vacuum gauge in the vac. adv. reference line, add in a short piece of hose on one end and put it in line and watch the gauge as you open the throttle and it would read vacuum soon as the throttle plate is opened as that's when the passage to that port is exposed. If timing is changing as it should be with the hand pump it also will while driving assuming your port isn't clogged up inside the throttlebody. If its clogged you won't get timing retard either that means your knock sensor will go off and it will buck and jerk. Use a hose long enough or lay it to the side and close the hood and drive and see that boost pressure enters that line. Put this in line with your FPR and watch it while you are boosting and make sure that port is working, it should be its fairly short and never saw one of those clogged up. If you can get that pump to work for pressure you can pump up that FPR hose and if you have a gauge to read fuel pressure you'll see fuel pressure increase the same psi as the pump up to about 12psi then that stock regulator won't add any more fuel pressure. Secondary injector. That will only come in at high rpms, quick TPS changes or when there is boost. If you rev it up slowly and there's no boost it won't do anything until you hit higher rpms and you seem to not be getting there. Is your MAF hacked up? Is the honeycomb missing? You have a stock or 1G MAF? You using a cone air filter or the stock air can or what? If you are using a 1G MAF, are you using the 1G MAF LID or did you stick the 1G MAF into a stock lid? The stock lid WILL NOT WORK with a 1G MAF. The end of the MAF is either stuck up to the end of the cone filter or stuck up to the end of the air can bottom and the air can't suck in when you get to the point where there's any boost and it starts to run like crap. You leaking any coolant or burning any? Something is being missed maybe that's some new stuff you haven't tried or been asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 This thread is all muddy and full of some BS. Really? The members are trying to help him. I haven't read any B.S.??? Maybe if you would have stuck to just answering his question and not added the above comment.....I would not have had to respond to such nonsense Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holeysocks Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 if a gauge or anything will screw into the injector hat, if it will go in 2 1/2 turns that is far enough..specs are 2 1/2 to 3 turns,, pipe threads seal on the 1st 2 threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted August 10, 2011 Report Share Posted August 10, 2011 I mean a vacuum gauge that has a hose on it, you can put that inline anywhere it comes with an assortment of vacuum Ts and hoses so you can use it on many different connections. They are a common item at autoparts stores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted August 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 11, 2011 thanks everyone...ive been busy working alot lately , will attempt to test everything mentioned here....car runs GREAT while cold...... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted August 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 ok, i replaced the trilogies with the stock injectors ( had picked up a couple at the u-pickem , and they tested good, no leaks..) and this thing runs perfect now........so, either my car doesnt like the trilogy's....or im having a problem with the secondary trilogy when it gets hot.......or the 35 psi fuel pressure isnt quite enuff to run the Trilogy's effectively...... im good to go as long as these mitsu injectors hold up.....i dont have a second delphi to test the secondary getting hot theory...., but i do wonder if upping the fuel pressure to 38 or 39 psi might make the Trilogys run in the sweet spot... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted August 16, 2011 Report Share Posted August 16, 2011 ok, i replaced the trilogies with the stock injectors ( had picked up a couple at the u-pickem , and they tested good, no leaks..) and this thing runs perfect now........so, either my car doesnt like the trilogy's....or im having a problem with the secondary trilogy when it gets hot.......or the 35 psi fuel pressure isnt quite enuff to run the Trilogy's effectively...... im good to go as long as these mitsu injectors hold up.....i dont have a second delphi to test the secondary getting hot theory...., but i do wonder if upping the fuel pressure to 38 or 39 psi might make the Trilogys run in the sweet spot... eric I run my 950/1150 Delphis (same as Trilogys) at 40 psi Idle Fuel Pressure without problems. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyquest Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Am I the only one who read this whole thread and could only thing one thing... find and fix the underlying issue, don't bandage it with fpr's and translators? In the end you will be a much happier starion owner. Allen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted August 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 SpeedyQuest, i think thats what i am trying to do......im glad your Quest runs great, but mine has a few issues i'm attempting to learn about.....and most everyone has been great to me...... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted August 20, 2011 Report Share Posted August 20, 2011 So, would you have bought them if you were told about their differences and what was required to use them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Indiana, they ran great when i first got them...thats why i wonder what changed ?... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted August 21, 2011 Report Share Posted August 21, 2011 Indiana, they ran great when i first got them...thats why i wonder what changed ?... ericFouling spark plugs unless the springs in the injectors are weakening but it might be that when a rotten fuel system gets a new filter/injectors that rust is still everywhere else. Rust particles can stick to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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