Caliber308 Posted June 29, 2011 Report Share Posted June 29, 2011 308, i do have the FSM...i have seen everything you guys are stating...did you see where i ask about page 14-10 of the manual?....what are they telling me under the "igniter" section about base idle?.....when i disconnect my knock sensor, i get no change..... again, what about page 14-10? eric My 1987 Starion FSM page 14-11 states this: The igniter incorporates a fail-safe feature which retards the ignition timing by a fixed angle (EXCEPT WHEN THE ENGINE IS AT IDLE) to protect the engine in the event of detonation sensor failure. A engine will not DETONATE at idle.So, I don't really understand your question about the Base Idle having to do with detonation. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) 308, im trying to determine how to test the detonation sensor.....how to tell a bad one.....if you cant tell at idle, how can you be sure its working?...only by the seat of the pants?....the manual says it doesnt retard timing at idle, U JUST TOLD ME SO.....so if i unplug it, its not gonna change.....and mine doesnt... ok, lets assume i have a bad sensor....and it retards timing by the fixed 8 degrees everywhere but at idle, i cant watch the timing going down the road! ..... then when i slow down and idle, its stops retarding....how the he11 am i gonna know its bad? eric Edited June 30, 2011 by quest4me2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) 308, im trying to determine how to test the detonation sensor.....how to tell a bad one.....if you cant tell at idle, how can you be sure its working?...only by the seat of the pants?....the manual says it doesnt retard timing at idle, U JUST TOLD ME SO.....so if i unplug it, its not gonna change.....and mine doesnt... ok, lets assume i have a bad sensor....and it retards timing by the fixed 8 degrees everywhere but at idle, i cant watch the timing going down the road! ..... then when i slow down and idle, its stops retarding....how the he11 am i gonna know its bad? eric I have heard of guys doing this to check it. But I have never done it nor can I say it works. They hit the engine block with a hammer near the Detonation Sensor while the car is running at Idle and listen for the engine RPM to change. Now, I told you that this is something I have read. So don't hold me to it. Bill Edited June 30, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) 308, but u just told me the manual states it doesnt retard at idle......strange (not you!) eric Edited June 30, 2011 by quest4me2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) 308, but u just told me the manual states it doesnt retard at idle......strange (not you!) ericNot unless you do something to activate the Sensor. Read the below information. I did some research and found this: 1987 Starion FSM Volume no.2 Page 8-157 Ignition System- Inspection of Detonation Control Function. Looks like those guys that said to strike the Engine Block with a hammer were correct. Bill Edited June 30, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 im supposed to get a hammer down in there,.....great......i bet alot of people have bad sensors and dont know it...i have to bash the block to check it..... ...people are running around 8 degrees retarded and think its just slow because its old... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) im supposed to get a hammer down in there,.....great......i bet alot of people have bad sensors and dont know it...i have to bash the block to check it..... ...people are running around 8 degrees retarded and think its just slow because its old... eric Well, now you know more about Detonation Sensors, how they retard the timing and how to check them. That is more than most members know about them P.S. Get a long rod and hold it next to the sensor, then hit the rod with the hammer and check your timing. Seems like the vibration from that activates the Sensor. Makes sense to me If you don't learn something new every time you log into this site.....Somethings wrong Bill Edited June 30, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Thanks for the help Bill! appreciate it,eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Thanks for the help Bill! appreciate it,eric Anytime, Glad I could help. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) I am not much for throwing parts at a problem, but Some parts are hard to test. How is a guy supposed to know how hard to beat on there block with a hammer? I know some guys that would just keep getting out bigger hammers. An aftermarket sensor is $66.Plus shipping from rock auto. Oem is MD063724 List $127, $91 plus shipping from a mitsu Internet sales dealer. Edited June 30, 2011 by StarquestRescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) I am not much for throwing parts at a problem, but Some parts are hard to test. An aftermarket sensor is $66.Plus shipping from rock auto. Oem is MD063724 List $127, $91 plus shipping from a mitsu Internet sales dealer. Years ago I purchased a Aftermarket Detonation Sensor for my Starion from CarQuest.....No workie. So I bought the Factory one from Ocean Mitsubishi in Warwick, Rhode Island.Back in 2005 it cost $63.78. Bill Edited June 30, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Yes i would probably go with a mitsu one my self. Than again i probably have 10 used ones. How did you know it did not work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) Yes i would probably go with a mitsu one my self. Than again i probably have 10 used ones. How did you know it did not work? Electrical connection was different.Didn't realize it until I got it home.Live and learn. Bill Edited June 30, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 The reason i think mine is bad....im having sputter problems boosting above 5 psi...i got the idea that maybe if the timing was retarding, i could have a "loading up" rich condition when boosting because of the slow timing and decided to look into the det. sensor....i looked around the internet about bypassing the sensor and found some honda guys getting a piezo transducer from radio shack and hooking it up ....i was skeptical, but for 2 dollars i said what the heck.....the car is not sputtering at all right now ......booting all the way to 7.5 clean....im being careful about detonation tho....gonna test a few more days , then buy new sensor if this holds up... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 I am not much for throwing parts at a problem, but Some parts are hard to test. How is a guy supposed to know how hard to beat on there block with a hammer? I know some guys that would just keep getting out bigger hammers. http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif An aftermarket sensor is $66.Plus shipping from rock auto. Oem is MD063724 List $127, $91 plus shipping from a mitsu Internet sales dealer. biger and biger hammer loltaping on the block close to the sensor is fairly standard way to test knock sensors , the sensor is a microphone it don't take a huge bang to activate it , also the FSM gives a detail'd how to test the knock funtion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) It doesn't say to hit the block with a hammer but somewhere there's a test where you strike the throttlebody with a screwdriver or something and that's supposed to be enough that the knock sensor sees that and changes timing but I can't find it rignt now but I've seen it 100 times. Here's some more about it below but the point is, its ASSUMED that the base timing was set with the detonation sensor connected and working. If you try some ricer trick that's so that the ECU will IGNORE the detonation so you can blow up quicker. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/distri1.jpg http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/distri2.jpghttp://www.b2600turbo.com/images/distri3.jpg Spark plugs. The earlier cars had lower boost and less agressive timing curves. They used a hotter plug. That gradually changed over the 8 years they made this car and if you look, they used the same TYPE plugs in the other turbo model cars there were building. What do people do now? First thing is change the boost. Change the turbo. Change the fuel pump. Change the regulator and all think that a stock ECU can adjust for this when it could barely work a stock setup. If you had some driver that shifted too early, never let the engine rev up and was always hauling around two kids and a dog and trunk full of groceries don't you think that would make the air fuel ratio VERY rich most all of the time? Mitsubishi knew it could happen and it does happen even in what you'd call "normal" driving. The point is not about how hot the plugs are but their TYPE. Denso makes Spark plugs, so does NGK and so do many others. You need to educate yourself on what semi surface discharge plugs are. While you are driving your car the boost goes up and down and up and down and this happens at all rpm ranges and in all gears under all conditions, hot, cold, flat, hills, high altitude and sea level. Since our fuel system is dependent on a FPR that changes with the boost that makes for a variable meaning you might be able to burn that fuel and you might not. The Air flow sensor just measures air flow it doesn't know what gear you are in or if you are in neutral or shifting. The ECU isn't that good at least it uses a tach signal but the TPS and CTS for air fuel control under normal operating conditions does almost nothing but there is an intake air temp sensor in the MAF. If you put an air fuel gauge on a completely stock car guess what you'd see.....you'd see the air fuel all over the place. So, what are those mysterious plugs you talk about that you don't ever see? Those plugs from D E N S O You thought I didn't know about them didn't you? I've got them too and some you haven't seen. NGKs semi surface discharge plug type differs in the TIP design, Denso makes the same type plug too they also have their own id system. When you have "alternate" plugs shown that meant you could use those if you couldn't find the correct ones. It doesn't mean they are EQUAL because they ARE NOT. You can find the correct ones if you ORDER them but the others are on the shelf because they are also used in a million other engines and just how impatient are people these days? Its not like they cost more or that 20 cents is going to break someone. Guess what, Mitsubishi is STILL using those same spark plugs. Here's Denso lettering systemhttp://www.globalden...ec/index.html#X You've all seen NGKs systemhttp://www.b2600turbo.com/images/NGKsparkplugNum.gif http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/262325_1433708860906_1778479606_687162_6765762_n.jpg Below: "S" in the last part of the # means its semi-surface discharge type, its counter part is on the right in the same way a BUR7EA compares to a BPR7ES http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/267275_1433710260941_1778479606_687163_2343712_n.jpg Below: a heat range 6 compared to a heat range 7, can't tell the difference can you? Its because of the TIP design and if you cut that off you'd see the difference in the gap same if you compared their counter parts of BPR6 and BPR7http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/260199_1433711420970_1778479606_687164_7094035_n.jpg Below: These are the same plug just different brands although the Denso isn't the equal to the NGK in heat range but I didn't have a 22 to show you but you can't see that part anyway. These are those listed as Factory Installed TYPE plug.http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270178_1433713461021_1778479606_687165_5362411_n.jpg Below: This is where you start to hear the duck sounds....http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/259946_1433715821080_1778479606_687167_1036842_n.jpg Edited June 30, 2011 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) I just did the tests on my 87 non intercooled car. This car had a new Mitsu sensor about 5 years ago. The timing at idle was not effected by disconnection the knock sensor. The manual says the knock sensor is not enabled at idle. Step two of the test procedure is to disconnect the air flow sensor. My car will not idle with the airflow sensor disconnected. Next i drove the car, there may have some times been a slight decrease in power when the data logger showed pin 61 enabling the knock sensor. Basically drove like nothing was wrong. When i reconnected the sensor. (quite a trick on a hot engine) it did perk up a little. Edit, do this test with the vacume advace hose disconnected. It will show the 8* retard clearly. So i tried blipping the throttle with a timing light on it. And i could see a difference in how the timing advanced or failed to, with or with out the sensor connected, consistent with a 8 degree retard. My logger shows it does not take much airflow load or throttle blip to activate pin 61, which goes to the igniter box. Edited June 30, 2011 by StarquestRescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Indiana, thanks for all the info....i have the 7031's.... the reason for the ricer trick was to try to avoid buying a 100 dollar part i didnt need... i didnt know how to troubleshoot the sensor...i was unable to unplug the afm ( car wouldnt run ) to do the FSM procedure ...im still curious if anyone has unplugged the sensor and seen the timing retard with their own eyes..... thanks again,eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 StarquestRescue, i really appreciate you running that little test! that gives me something to chew on ....so i guess you had no miss or sputtering at WOT with the sensor disconnected? sounds like its not that noticable if it fails....i bet there are some quest'ers that have bad detonation circuits and dont realize it.... when i get home today i will break out my timing light and do some similar tests... thanks!,eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) Ok, i disconnected pin 61 from the ecu, which i figured would enable the knock sensor. No change in idle timing. Than took the butt end of a 1/2 inch breaker bar and tapped on the block. There is a spot above the sensor and right behind the timing cover that was easy to tap. A couple of taps does nothing, but 6 or 8 quick taps and the timing starts to retard. It is a gradual change and when i stopped tapping the timing gradually returned to normal 10* before tdc. Maybe 5 seconds to return to normal. Reconnected pin 61 and tapped on the block in the same manner. Timing stays at 10*. Edited June 30, 2011 by StarquestRescue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarquestRescue Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 StarquestRescue, ....so i guess you had no miss or sputtering at WOT with the sensor disconnected? thanks!,ericNo miss or stutter. That is a sign of a weak ignition or more likely a to rich condition. The extra timing you got from fooling the igniter from not retarding is masking a underlying ignition or tune problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Thanks DR. Rescue.... i think you have come up with a pretty definitive way to test it....if everyone can confirm this is reliable, it should be in the FAQ's..... i got lots of tinkering to do now! thanks again!eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 (edited) It doesn't say to hit the block with a hammer So Shelby and I are incorrect and your answer is the only correct one Well, you are correct in stating that it does not say to strike it with a hammer. The FSM says to use a WRENCH...OR THE LIKE to generate the Detonation Signal Wrench, Hammer, Socket Wrench, a Rock.... Who cares? As long as it works to generate a signal. But just in case you still think that we are incorrect and would like the page number that tells you this so you can see it for yourself, here it is: 1987 Starion FSM Volume no.2, Page 8-157 Ignition System-Service Adjustment Procedures. Bill Edited July 3, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 he he some may not know it but hammers come in a varity of sizes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted July 3, 2011 Report Share Posted July 3, 2011 Excuse my lack of using a scanner and the pressure sensor portion refers to vehicles that have them. Like I said, it didn't say to HIT THE BLOCK it said the throttlebody so it won't matter really were you bang on it just don't hit the actual sensor. The frequency of your impact is what the ignitor will respond to so just ONE impact may not be enough. The point is that the greater the noise the greater effect that will have on changing timing. It also says to unplug the sensor to make sure that the fail-safe function happens. You think they would have a service technician banging on engine blocks and trying to look at a timing light at the same time? You can't see the timing marks from just anywhere and you have to look at those to see a change in timing and the throttlebody stud as they say is to the left and that's where you stand when looking at the timing marks. If you want to let Caliber bang on your block good, maybe he can knock a hole in your oil filter while he's at it or at least burn his arm but when the engine is running and you are trying to bang on the BLOCK its not going to be easy with the belts down there turning and the air filter can and all the heat shields in place and if its on the intake side watch out for the alternator charge wire. Good try Caliber, you fail again nobody is going to bang on the block like I said so ya I guess you are wrong again. The other "test" about the air flow sensor being unplugged, at least for 88s I've seen some do run with it unplugged and some do not. The ignitor after 87 is different so don't expect it to react in the exact same way and the ignitors as well as the distributors and governor sets (weights) changed many times over the years There are 4 plastic ignitors and 3 metal ones (83 is metal)1984 IgnitorMD071942 1985/86IgnitorMD071942MD093767 "P" series 1987IgnitorMD109942 1988/89IgnitorMD125748 Mechanical or vacuum advance shouldn't be active at idle speeds so which year dist. you are using is not supposed to matter but a change in timing from a knock signal will effect rpms so that COULD also effect the change you see if you have the rpms higher than idle when you test to see if it works. 1984DistributorMD061593Governor setMD607784Vac Adv UnitMD607785 1985/86DistributorMD061593MD093766 after 12-84 Governor setMD607784MD611368 for 3766 Vac Adv unitMD607785MD611360 for 3766 1987DistbibutorMD109937MD109938 w/intercoolerGovernor setMD607784 for 9937 MD611368 for 9938 Vac Adv UnitMD611360 1988/89DistributorMD119754Governor setMD611368Vac Adv UnitMD611769 http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/268547_1436712856004_1778479606_690615_1598523_n.jpg http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/264367_1436713696025_1778479606_690617_5386611_n.jpg http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/270691_1436714176037_1778479606_690619_11531_n.jpg http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/264698_1436714776052_1778479606_690620_2493204_n.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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