The Rabbit1 Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 the o2 doesn't hunt, it only reads what is happening. the fuel mixture is changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 i understand that....its the ecu adjusting the mixture....apparently on my car it only does it on with the a/c running......i swapped ecu's today, no change..... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 are you per chance runing a k-vent systemposible brake booster hose leaking , tbi upper houseing oring leaking , egr valve leaking also the nose swt needs to be close'd , it has nothing to do with open or close'd loop only tells the ecu the throddle is close'd , no nose swt signal and the ecu thinks the engineis coasting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Hi Shelby, no Krank-vent...egr valve blocked off...brake booster hose checked good...best i can tell, no vacuum leaks... im begining to think i have a knock sensor issue...when i unplug sensor on the block, the car runs the same, i cant tell that its retarding 8 degrees, same acceleration either way....supposedly when unplugged ignitor automatically retards timing as a fail-safe....could this be causing an overrich issue when boosting, and causing the miss and sputter ive been experiencing?.... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 What is done to this car again and what happens and when. A knock sensor is not necessary, that's just a safety function control device for the ignitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 well i can't see that the fuel air will get a good mix with a 17 degree spray pattern your gona have gobs of gas and lumps of air with no fuel in it at all , sounds like a recipe for dezastor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 (edited) Indiana, the manual says if an open or shorted knock sensor is detected, the ignitor goes into fail-safe mode and retards 8 degrees until fixed....but at idle the timing is left alone... i have a sputter while boosting above 5 psi.....im beginning to wonder if its loading up rich due to the 8 degrees retarded timing under load...my car acts the same weather i have the knock sensor disconnected or connected....the manual says it will fail-safe if open, so i believe i may have that issue.....i dont believe you can just unplug the knock sensor and the car run the same... today i bought a $2 piezo transducer from radio shack and hooked it up ( little internet honda trick ) and took the car for a drive ....its raining today so i couldnt get into boost without fishtailing, but it seems more responsive....will wait for dry weather...but will be very careful of detonation till fixed... eric Edited June 27, 2011 by quest4me2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted June 27, 2011 Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 If your knock sensor isn't there working you can set your base timing and its already retarded because the ignitor see its connected that's how you have no safety from it being there. The ignitor didn't see it was connected when its broken or missing or just doesn't work at all then it retards the timing internally all the time, you use a timing light and move the distributor and the ignitor can't do anything about it now. That make sense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2011 Indiana but the manual says it doesnt affect idle timing.....that will stay the same.............i understand what u are saying , that i have already adjusted the 8 degrees out when i set the base timing because it was already retarded then form being bad....BUT, the manual says it doesnt affect idle timing, so it shouldnt be reflected at idle, right ? eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) well i can't see that the fuel air will get a good mix with a 17 degree spray pattern your gona have gobs of gas and lumps of air with no fuel in it at all , sounds like a recipe for dezastor Shelby, I know you have helped me a lot in the past. But I take issue with you and Indy both saying that the spray pattern of Delphis will contribute to a car not running correctly. If the Delphi spray pattern is JUNK, then why do so many members who have installed them in place of the Stock ones have success??? I have, and mine have been installed since 2008. I can see if your talking about clogged Delphis causing problems, the same thing will happen with Stock injectors, Believe me, it has happened to me with clogged Stock ones.Perhaps it could be WHERE and WHO you buy the Delphis from that makes them work or not ;)After all, If you don't machine your Throttle Body to accept them as they come stock, you will have trouble. My Delphis were machined by the seller and owner of the company: http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com. The owner of the companies name, Jon Banner. If you need upgraded (larger)or stock sized machined Delphis, call him direct!!! 1-770-888-1662 or if you have any questions about what size injectors you should run with your set up. I had a hour conversation with Jon prior to buying his injector set up for my car. The time i spent talking to him was well worth it. Bill Edited June 28, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 a bad o2 gives a lean reading.. obviously something is wrong here. Your answer perhaps Read the FSM. And you will see where poor fuel mileage is contributed to a Oxygen Sensor Malfunction which means a RICH CONDITION !!!! Not lean, RICH. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Shelby, I know you have helped me a lot in the past. But I take issue with you and Indy both saying that the spray pattern of Delphis will contribute to a car not running correctly. If the Delphi spray pattern is JUNK, then why do so many members who have installed them in place of the Stock ones have success??? I have, and mine have been installed since 2008. I can see if your talking about clogged Delphis causing problems, the same thing will happen with Stock injectors, Believe me, it has happened to me with clogged Stock ones.Perhaps it could be WHERE and WHO you buy the Delphis from that makes them work or not ;)After all, If you don't machine your Throttle Body to accept them as they come stock, you will have trouble. My Delphis were machined by the seller and owner of the company: http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com. The owner of the companies name, Jon Banner. If you need upgraded (larger) machined Delphis, call him direct!!! 1-770-888-1662 or if you have any questions about what size injectors you should run with your set up. I had a hour conversation with Jon prior to buying his injector set up for my car. The time i spent talking to him was well worth it. Bill Just because it "works", doesn't mean it's "right". Imagine the stream pattern, it's just like the difference between stream and spray patterns on an adjustabe hose nozzle. Both work, but one is better than the other for any given task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) Just because it "works", doesn't mean it's "right". Imagine the stream pattern, it's just like the difference between stream and spray patterns on an adjustabe hose nozzle. Both work, but one is better than the other for any given task. So Chad, What is your point? Do you want members to use old outdated Stock Fuel Injectors that most likely will screw up again after you have them cleaned and flowed? (Don't believe it, ask me) Or buy new ones from Mitsu. at appox $500.00 a piece? Delphis work fine if you buy them machined for our Throttle Body. And at appox. $220.00 a set for the 650/850 combination....The price is not bad If they didn't work, I would tell the membership that too.Chad, If your post was to try and discredit me, (like other ones you have tried). You screwed up.I don't just give one point of view or option (see above information) I pretty much try to cover ALL the members options as far as Throttle Body Injectors go. Bill Edited June 28, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quest4me2 Posted June 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 so i just got back from test drive....i substituted the piezo transducer ( $2 - Radio Shack # 273-0073 ) for my possible bad unit since i dont have a spare, i have not sputter at all !...i have my wastegate set to 7.5psi and i can burst all the way to it no problem ( afraid to hold it there without knock sensor working )...also the seat of the pants really seems to have come alive...i need to test for a bit to be sure it stays good....but i really need some confirmation on the interaction of knock sensor and ignitor timing retardation ..... i dont think it affects base timing, and u would only see it under load....alot of people could have bad knock sensors and think their ride is just sluggish... eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OPTIMUSPRIME Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Just a quick reply... I tried the Delphi Injectors and DID NOT WORK well with the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 So Chad, What is your point? Do you want members to use old outdated Stock Fuel Injectors that most likely will screw up again after you have them cleaned and flowed? (Don't believe it, ask me) Or buy new ones from Mitsu. at appox $500.00 a piece? Delphis work fine if you buy them machined for our Throttle Body. And at appox. $220.00 a set for the 650/850 combination....The price is not bad If they didn't work, I would tell the membership that too. I don't just give one point of view or option (see above information) I pretty much try to cover ALL the members options as far as Throttle Body Injectors go. Bill the point is, maybe people should buy the right parts. Just ask RC engineering. I could make an injector from from just about any car work, but that doesn't mean it will work well. Why sacrifice fuel atomization? for $$? Fine! just don't say it's the best way to go, there are better. I ran them a long time ago when it was not the norm (1996 actually), and it never idled as good, and sometimes surged a little at cruise, especialy when compared stock injectors. Problem was, good stock injectors are a lot of $$$, so I got aftermarket instead. I saved $$ but sacrificed idle/cruise quality. So ya, this is experiance, not opinion. I gave up on them in 2001, well before most of you guys ever even knew they were an option. It was a known problem back then too. Everything on this car is a comprimise, we should be informing our membership what those comprimises are. If your post was to try and discredit me, (like other ones you have tried). You screwed up. Dude, grow up, you cry like a little girl sometimes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) the point is, maybe people should buy the right parts. Just ask RC engineering. I coudl make an injector from from just about any car work, but that won't mean it will work well. Why sacrifice fuel atomization? for $$? fine, just don't say it's the best way to go, there are better. I ran them a long time ago when it was not the norm (1996 actually) and it never idled as good, and sometimes surged a little at cruise, especialy when compared stock injectors. Problem was, good stock injectors are a lot of $$$, so I got aftermarket instead. I saved $$ but sacrificed idle/cruise quality. So ya, this is experiance, not opinion. Everything on tihs car is a comprimise, we should be informing our membership what those comprimises are. Maybe you don't know how to set up a car with the Delphi Injectors to Idle and run at Cruise fine... I DO !!! And will be more than happy to tell the members who don't know how to go about it. Just P.M. me.Keep trying Chad, Perhaps one day you will be able to discredit me with your B.S. responses to my posts (That seem to appear every time I give advice)...NOT !!!! Update: 1987 to 1989 New Mitsubishi Primary and Secondary Injector prices: Primary: $405.50 Secondary: $459.82 http://www.ricartmitsubishi.com Bill Edited June 28, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 you can get them from RC engineering for a lot less, and they will have the correct spray pattern. They will be more than domestic delphis though. I think I paid $220 or $225 for a custom flowed 1200 cc one back in 2000. Think they sold a set for about $395 back arround that time, that was before you came here though, so you probalby didn't know about it. So are you saying Delphis are not a drop in modification, I didn't see the other "tricks" listed, nor that there were any "triks" nessesary. So how do you "trick" the fuel to stay finely atomozed when it hits the throttle plate dead center in a narrow stream? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) you can get them from RC engineering for a lot less, and they will have the correct spray pattern. They will be more than domestic delphis though. So are you sayign they are not a drop in modification, I didn't see the other "tricks" listed, nor that there were any "triks" nessesary. So how do you "trick" the fuel to stay finely atomozed when it hits the throttle plate dead center in a narrow stream? Just to appease you I checked on RC Engineerings website. Where does it state that these injectors will fit a 87/89 Starquest ???? NOWHERE. You can try to B.S. the membership, but you can't B.S. me. If they are the same spray pattern as Stock injectors, and they are a "Drop in" installation, and they are cheaper than Delphis. Why in the hell aren't you selling them? Or giving the membership a website address where they can purchase them? More B.S. from Chad.I think I found out your main purpose in following around my responses to posts...To get the post LOCKED. Bill Edited June 28, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 You have to call, just like I did. yah, total BS Actually, I think I just emaled them, but that was 11 years ago, so I don't remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 They aren't cheaper than delpshis, and I even said so. I have no idea on current pricing, just what I paid to have one custom injector made to order. You are so enraged, you can't even read straight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) You have to call, just like I did. yah, total BS Actually, I think I just emaled them, but that was 11 years ago, so I don't remember. MORE B.S. At least I offered to help members set up their cars to run correctly (if they didn't already) with the Delphi injector installation. Come on Chad. I thought we all posted here to HELP members in this Forum Here's a tip to help members with a Throttle Bodied car that might not be Idling correctly or hesitating on cruise. Install a MAF-Translator set up. Then your in control of your AIR/FUEL Ratios at Idle, Midrange (cruise) and Wide Open Throttle. But i'm sure Chad will have something negative to say about that because I suggested it. Bill Edited June 28, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 I did help, there are other options... If you buy the right inejctor, there is no "special setup" needed. Who is trying to take away from whom here? Where did I call your advice BS? I see a lot of such statemenets from you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) I did help, there are other options... If you buy the right inejctor, there is no "special setup" needed. Who is trying to take away from whom here? Where did I call your advice BS? I see a lot of such statemenets from you Because you don't read my entire posts.Where did I say that the Delphis were the only option? I gave three different options. One, have your injectors cleaned and flowed. Two, buy new ones from Mitsubishi. Three, install Delphis. ONE,I have tried without success.TWO, Way too much money for the average Starquest owner.THREE, The best option I can see, and I do have experience running them on my car with success. If you think the RC Injectors are the way to go....Give the membership the information: Where to buy them and the part numbers. Bill Edited June 28, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted June 28, 2011 Report Share Posted June 28, 2011 Indeed, there are options, I offered another one, and you want to take it away from me cause its not on your list, then you call it BS, thinking I have no basis from experiance Not once did I take anything away from you, I merely said "just because it "works", doesn't make it "right". Few of us do it right. Lighten up man, go smoke a bowl or drink a brew or something. You want info on the RC's, "PM me and I'll tell you my secret". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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