Aluminum Roller Rockers

[89PalermoSHP]

how much hp gain would you expect with cam bearings?

[Earl]

none, but you're taking some load off of the cam correct? and if it was a useless idea and made no sense to do, then why would Indiana have done it to his head? lol If he pops on here I'm sure he can post a link and a picture of what I'm talking about.

[89PalermoSHP]

my original head had cam bearings. my understanding was the cam was damaged at some point and this is a fix rather than a new cam or head.

[The Rabbit1]

a cam journal and journal bearings are the same thing. your not taking a load off of anything. You might be taking a load to believe it would though, lol

[Tim_C.]

my original head had cam bearings. my understanding was the cam was damaged at some point and this is a fix rather than a new cam or head.

 

Yes, exactly!

[Earl]

I figured that out. Sorry for the mistake. For some reason I figured that the characteristics of a steel bearing would allow the cam to spin with less restriction. Technology brought up the idea of having a Fluidampr made for our cars. I actually messaged them last night on the matter and have yet to hear back. I was going to wait until I got a response, but I just want to keep the thread alive instead of starting a new one. Would any of you be interested in a Fluidampr crank pulley? If you've never heard of them here's a link: http://fluidampr.com/

The pulley uses a gel inside of the pulley to take place of the old rubber harmonic balancer. It does wear out like the rubber ones have been known to and the product is proven with helping with longevity of the motor.

[Earl]

I just received this:

 

 

 

 

Hi Earl,

 

Thank you for your interest in Fluidampr products and services. There are two options as we do not offer a direct replacement for your engine. One, we offer “generic” damper rings that engine builders will fabricate their own mounting hub to fit a particular application. Attached are customer drawings with some dimensional specs. for these damper rings. The other option would require a 100 piece minimum order for us to engineer and manufacture a damper for this engine. The 100 piece minimum is due to the amount of time and high cost associated with this process.

 

If you have any other questions or wish to pursue one of these options you may contact me via email or direct at 716-995-6232.

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Ivan Snyder III

Sales

Vibratech TVD/Fluidampr

Ph: 716-592-1000 X: 6232

Fax: 716-592-1001

Email: ivan.snyder@vibratechtvd.com

Email: ivan.snyder@fluidampr.com

 

 

 

 

Do you think we can get a minimum of 100 orders? lol

[Tim_C.]

NOW!!!!!! Here is a member that sees the big picture. If you want to run a Roller set up, the 1.6lt. 3000gt rollers work fine coupled with a Roller cam. Why try to re-invent the wheel??? Sounds like the DOHC revisited!!!!!Also, I have read comments from certain members that say this: "You don't gain RPMS by installing a Roller set up". I will think about their comments the next time I rev my car to 7000 ;)If you haven't done it, you can't comment on it.

 

I don't give bad advice, just sound advice,

 

Bill

Yes you do Bill! Yeah, when many G54B's lose their useable horsepower, a good roller set-up will continue revving with power and will not 'nose over' so soon. Of course there needs to be supporting mods, but you can't get much past 5800 without a good cam and rocker set-up.

[89PalermoSHP]

Do you think we can get a minimum of 100 orders? lol

 

not a chance in heck if they are $300 each.

 

hows the air splitter coming along. surely you've found more cardboard by now.

[The Rabbit1]

A journal bearing is made out of Babbit, not steel. and why the damper? the liquid dampers are for engine harmonics, didn't think our engines were bad on that?

[Indiana]

A journal bearing is made out of Babbit, not steel.

I believe he is talking about the bearing that lets the roller on the end of the rocker arm rotate if there is one, I don't know maybe not. He wasn't talking about bearing inserts for the cam or crank.

[Earl]

Well the engine harmonics aren't bad, but if people do a BSEK and don't bother to balance their internals, it could get a tiny bit shaky. Plus I'm almost positive you can't find any oem replacements if the rubber wears out. And the price is a little high, but you never know. It would benefit some of the more built motors on here=) And I haven't worked on the air splitter, haven't had any free time. Plus I have no cardboard at home now and I haven't had any time to grab any from work.

[89PalermoSHP]

sounds like a lot of excuses man

[Earl]

And it's cold as shizz out, so there's another excuse=D lol But I need a big sheet to do the pan section, and I haven;t seen any at work. It'll get done eventually. Do you like the way I was moving?

[The Rabbit1]

Well the engine harmonics aren't bad, but if people do a BSEK and don't bother to balance their internals, it could get a tiny bit shaky. Plus I'm almost positive you can't find any oem replacements if the rubber wears out. And the price is a little high, but you never know. It would benefit some of the more built motors on here=) And I haven't worked on the air splitter, haven't had any free time. Plus I have no cardboard at home now and I haven't had any time to grab any from work.

It would benefit an engine with a BSEK running high RPM's, was it really $300 a piece though?

[Earl]

I don't know if I'd pay that much, but they range from between $200 and $300 usually. They also offer a set of universal parts that lets you create your own if they haven't made one yet. I haven't looked at pricing on that but I'm sure it's close to the other price.

[Fuze]

Roller rockers need roller cams. The profile of the slipper cams is different than one of a roller cam.

 

-Robert

Learned THAT the hard way a few years ago, LOL!!

 

"Why can't I make any boost? But it does rev quite smoothly in neutral...."

Edited January 25, 2011 by Fuze

[Earl]

that's no good. what'd you all toast that way? Brian says that with his setup, you can run 1.6 roller rockers on a stock cam, and he has successfully for years. I wouldn't do it, but he has and he says it works. But I have a 264-h cam that I'm using mine with and that'll work good=D

[89PalermoSHP]

earl, you should hook us up with some billet aluminum blocks.

[Earl]

lol If I had the abilities and access to do so, I would do it=) Should I get back to work on the diffuser? lol

[Shelby]

what is every ones complain about hyd lifters , the trick is not to try for 8k rpms with a long stroke engine that will lead only to blown engines one after another ,,the real trick is to make power over a long range of rpm , who cares if some dyno queen made 700hp #8500 for 300 rpms ,,how long does an engine stay at any one rpm durring a 1/4 mile run

normaly a hyd lifter will only do one thing PUMP up and hold a valve open ,

any one disagree with that .

 

now there maybe 2 or 3 that want super engines and these guys will disagree with me thats fine , i'm not talking about any thing reliative to their world any way

 

we ran hyd lifters for many years with some real wild cam profiles , what you do is set up the hyd lifter with almost zero lash,or very little loading,,,@ 5-6k rpms you got all the oil pressure you'l ever need to hold a lifter full of oil ,

i'm not sure how many of you are aware of just how hard the rocker adjusters have to be ,,many of you have notice's little chips missing from the valve stems ,ever wonder why,, thats cause'd from valve float , for what ever reason over reving or weak springs but at some point the valve left the rocker arm and clash'd with a lot of force when again contacting the valve stem

 

i'd recomend ALL of you at least run the sneider springs or better but sneider even for a stock engine set up

 

and how many would like to have a 20- 30 % free hp increase ? 1 -2 all then why don't you listen to guys like Tim C, Cal and Chip when they tell you of the new found tourqe and reving ability with a roller set up , going with a roller set up is a given the trick is to find the right cam ,

 

biger is not always better , a great many v8 guys found that out quickly .

you need to match cam to your expectations and with a turbo you do not need huge durations and lift to fill your needs , but one cam that works super with one turbo may not do what you want with a much bigger turbo

 

you want max air /fuel charge to enter the cyl head in the shortest amount of time ,and exit the same way ,,and any way you look at the roller vers the sliper the roller will do this much better ,,what you need to do is find the proper time for this to happen , meaning the finding the right profile and over lap

 

the turbo volvo's have been madeing very good dyno charts with a lot less cam lift and duration then even our stock sliper cam so maybe it's not how much durration and lift but rather when these events takes place that important

this is just random bla bla's from an old man

 

but i totaly agree i'm not 100% happy with the rocker/lifter alignment with our valve stems but many have ran for a long time with out serious damage from it .

[The Rabbit1]

bigger is not always better , a great many v8 guys found that out quickly . one cam that works super with one turbo may not do what you want with a much bigger turbo.

 

you want max air /fuel charge to enter the cyl head in the shortest amount of time ,and exit the same way ,,and any way you look at the roller vers the sliper the roller will do this much better ,,what you need to do is find the proper time for this to happen , meaning the finding the right profile and over lap

 

the turbo volvo's have been madeing very good dyno charts with a lot less cam lift and duration then even our stock sliper cam so maybe it's not how much durration and lift but rather when these events takes place that important

this is just random bla bla's from an old man

 

this would be cam profiles. there is a specific timing that needs to be set to make power. and each cam should be ground for that one exact setup. there is no generic cam that will work for multiple setups. I mean it'll run, just not at max potential.

[PDX87Starion]

Like Shelby said, bigger is not better even for N/A applications. But I think a lot of people still have this "race cam" or "292" or "performance cam" mentality when it comes to turbo cars. Yes it would be nice to just by a hot cam bolt it in and have more power, torque, and RPM's, but with boost I believe the cam should be the last mod, not the first like in the N/A world.

 

Interesting article in hotrod magazine a while back. http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_1011_cams_for_turbocharged_engines/index.html

 

"To get the skinny on cam design for boosted applications, we consulted Billy Godbold, Comp Cams' head camshaft designer.

 

Because turbo applications make such dramatic power, the common misconception is that the intake and exhaust port velocities need to be quite high, in turn mandating very large-duration camshafts to make a given amount of power. Actually, the exact opposite is true. Because of the increased pressure along with a corresponding increase in oxygen and fuel density, more fuel and air are moving into the chamber, but the velocity is actually lower. The combustion chamber pressure therefore rises more quickly, and filling occurs earlier in the stroke compared with a similar NA application.

 

Put all this together, and what works best in a turbo application is a smaller camshaft than the profiles normally specified for NA engines. Because overlap needs to favor the intake side, turbo cams tend toward far less duration than in an NA application. While the exhaust looks small, the exhaust opening point does not move as much as the exhaust closing point. The biggest change is overlap because you are no longer using the exiting exhaust to draw in the intake charge. Instead, exhaust energy drives the turbocharger to pressurize the inlet charge".

 

Plus I dont think hardly any cam grinders have really done much dyno testing to see what really works with boost. What really works for them are big numbers like "292", thats what sells cams.

[brianpaul98]

Its been a while and I decided to come back and see where this post has gone.

 

First off I just don't get the term "roller cam" for the 2.6 liter SOHC engine. To me it makes no sense because its a flat ground cam and no matter what type of rocker you put on it its still a flat ground cam. If you understand the concept of a flat tappet and roller cam then you will understand why it makes no sense to call the 2.6 liter cam a "roller cam". It almost doesn't make sense to refer to the cam as a hyd or mech cam because aside from its profile its the same lobe design. To call it a Turbo or Non Turbo cam grind makes a lot more sense or to just refer to the cam by its profile (lift, duration, lobe separation) makes the most sense.

 

Flat tappet cams have a lifter that spins on a tapered cam lobe and you are limited to the amount of lift before the lifter starts to dig into the cam lobe. A flat tappet cam also has a limited load carrying ability before the lobe starts to wear out and you won't necessarily gain any benefit by going to a roller cam of the exact same specs. There is also a hyd and solid lifter flat tappet cam where the solid lifter is desirable for high RPM usage where the lifter won't bleed down.

 

A "ROLLER" cam has a roller tappet (lifter) that rides on a flat ground cam. The lifter does not spin and can handle very high lift, very high spring loads and because of these very high spring loads a roller lifter has less drag and can operate at very high rpm's.

 

Second, the cam lobe on our cams has a specific geometry / shape to it and can only be re-ground so far with respect to lift and duration before it no longer has the proper geometry for the rocker to stay on the lobe and keep the proper valve lash. Also the lobes can only be re-ground so far with respect to lobe separation where say a Schneider cam generally has 114 degrees of lobe separation and one of Tim's cams has 111.5 degrees.

 

The only real reason I would run the 1.6 roller rocker is for the 1.6 ratio not the roller, the roller is just an added benefit. The problem with the 1.6 roller rockers is that they retard the intake lobe and advance the exhaust lobe. If you had a cam ground that would decrease the lobe separation to say 111.5 degrees like Tim's cam and degree it in properly it well help.

 

As far as the stock cam and the 1.6 roller rockers making you car a dog off the line I very much beg to differ. After 6+ years of driving it that way and nearly spanking a guy at work with his 11.60 1/4 mile time 383 AFR aluminum headed SBC Monte Carlo I would say my car runs just fine

 

I also have nothing to hide, here are the basic mods that I'm running :

 

 

 

20G turbo @ 20 ~ 23 PSI boost

3.5" GM MAF with honeycomb removed

MAF-T Gen 1 "Black Box"

Stress relieved and ported stock exhaust manifold

3" Exhaust w/ no cats

2 1/4" Hard pipes w/ stock modded IC

Stock Cam w/ 1.6 roller rockers

Mild ported Marnal head with stock valves and my perf. springs w/ titanium retainers

Stock TB with ported intake and mixer (divider knife edged)

650cc / 950cc Delphi injectors w/ Trilogy RR Adjustable FPR

Innovate LC-1 Wideband for tuning

Edited March 27, 2011 by brianpaul98

[The Rabbit1]

First off I just don't get the term "roller cam" for the 2.6 liter SOHC engine. To me it makes no sense because its a flat ground cam and no matter what type of rocker you put on it its still a flat ground cam. If you understand the concept of a flat tappet and roller cam then you will understand why it makes no sense to call the 2.6 liter cam a "roller cam". It almost doesn't make sense to refer to the cam as a hyd or mech cam because aside from its profile its the same lobe design. To call it a Turbo or Non Turbo cam grind makes a lot more sense or to just refer to the cam by its profile (lift, duration, lobe separation) makes the most sense.

 

Flat tappet cams have a lifter that spins on a tapered cam lobe and you are limited to the amount of lift before the lifter starts to dig into the cam lobe. A flat tappet cam also has a limited load carrying ability before the lobe starts to wear out and you won't necessarily gain any benefit by going to a roller cam of the exact same specs. There is also a hyd and solid lifter flat tappet cam where the solid lifter is desirable for high RPM usage where the lifter won't bleed down.

 

A "ROLLER" cam has a roller tappet (lifter) that rides on a flat ground cam. The lifter does not spin and can handle very high lift, very high spring loads and because of these very high spring loads a roller lifter has less drag and can operate at very high rpm's.

They are calling a roller setup because the lifters they are using has a roller on both sides of the rocker?

I have hydraulic lifters that use a different cam profile then someone with solid screw adjustment rockers.. did you not understand that part?

 

I can agree on a full roller setup freeing up power by loss of friction, but that isn't what increases your redline.. The redline is set by a manufacturer because of valve float and oil flow among other reasons.

 

I will think about their comments the next time I rev my car to 7000

 

my next question, what is our oil pump gpm rating? how long can you hold that kind of rpm before running out of oil? If your oil sump is too small your oil pump is capable of pumping the oil through the engine and the oil may not get back to the sump in time creating a big problem. That's why small blocks have those cool 10qt pans.