For All You Stock Sway Bar Havin' Starquest Owners...

[ucw458]

so ralliart putting strut bars on their race cars had no meaning?

 

I'm not saying they have no affect but you need to stop confusing terms. Race car and street car and 2 vastly different vehicles operating under polar opposite conditions. One product that may shed a second off a race car lap time may have no noticable or measurable affect on a street car. Most of the SQ owners out there have stockish TBI street cars. What may work for a 500HP MPI car may do absolutly nothing for a stock TBI car.

Edited July 25, 2010 by ucw458

[Killtodie]

Toadie is claiming he corners better with poly engine mounts. But his claim is based off a butt dyno and his past experience with a civic. Well his past experience is clouding his perceptions. A civic is FWD and like most FWD cars the engine and all it's mounts actually stiffen the chassis. A FWD has mounts connecting the strut towers and a subframe so yes on a FWD car good motor mounts will increase handling over blown ones. But the same can't be said for a SQ which is a completely different car. I have added poly mounts on my engine and my car doesn't corner any better as far as I can tell. So who do you believe?

 

i'm basing my experience that when I put in poly mounts into my quest it handled better. and when i replaced busted worn mounts in my civic it had better throttle response. I didnt say anything about handling on my civic, the transcrap mounted engine doesnt matter if its on hockey pucks or playdoh.

[1989Quest]

My initial post was just meant to inform others that may not have a ton of suspension knowledge (such as myself) and are trying to determine what, if anything they would like to do to try to improve their car's handling. Because of the simplicity and affordability this seems like a no brainer to me. I believe that a rear MK1 bar with bushings can be had for $120 shipped on Ebay right now. I also noticed yesterday that he had an auction with both bars and bushings for $240 shipped.

 

Since this has started to turn into a strut tower brace vs. sway bar debate I thought it would be beneficial to mention that I have the MK1 front and rear strut tower braces. Assuming that anyone is unfamiliar with them, they are rectangular shaped bars and connect the strut towers. They look pretty and are highly visible but in my opinion they made little if any noticeable difference in handling. I agree with some of the previous posters that it seems marketing is the driving force behind producing them. Maybe other strut brace styles are more beneficial...I'm not going to find that out though. Had I known that the braces would provide an insignificant benefit for me, I would have saved my money and purchased the sway bars and end-links. Possibly just the rear bar but I won't know until I get the front one on at a later date. Oh yeah, I rarely drive it like I stole it, but after getting the rear bar on it certainly provides more encouragement to do so.

[NotStock88]

I'm not saying they have no affect but you need to stop confusing terms. Race car and street car and 2 vastly different vehicles operating under polar opposite conditions. One product that may shed a second off a race car lap time may have no noticable or measurable affect on a street car. Most of the SQ owners out there have stockish TBI street cars. What may work for a 500HP MPI car may do absolutly nothing for a stock TBI car.

i will say it again, if you are tooling around town and putzing here and there, you are not going to notice a difference....i agree 100% BUT - I, on the hand, have many mods, including MPI and auto X with it sometimes, one could say its a race car.. so what line do i have to cross to "feel" the difference?

I guess its just a figment of my butt's imagination

Edited July 26, 2010 by NotStock88

[Komeuppance]

LMAO!! You guys are acting like SQ fanboys now... might as well say the SQ is the ultimate car EVER... IN THE UNIVERSE. The car flexes, not as much as some cars but it still does. That's a fact, plain and simple. Optimal handling characteristics are with a stiff as obtainable chassis. Is that what you guys are trying to do?? Settling for second best??

 

-Robert

[NotStock88]

Ok, so its safe to say that sway bars are a better upgrade compared to strut bars.

With minimal upgrades and lavish driving one will not need strut bars, they just add to the look, UNLESS you are a more serious driver, aggressive one may say, when other upgrads are in place the strut bars will help keep the chassis stiff (mostly race scenarios).

 

Is this accurate?

Edited July 26, 2010 by NotStock88

[ucw458]

i will say it again, if you are tooling around town and putzing here and there, you are not going to notice a difference....i agree 100% BUT - I, on the hand, have many mods, including MPI and auto X with it sometimes, one could say its a race car.. so what line do i have to cross to "feel" the difference?

I guess its just a figment of my butt's imagination

 

 

You're not being very objective and you also are not noticing I never said it wouldn't be helpful. If you want to be objective about this then you should take your car to a skidpad and get readings with and without the brace. Also for a base comparison a stock SQ should go through the same test.

[Komeuppance]

You guys realize the car flexing over time will make it weaker and weaker, right??

 

-Robert

[AutoBodyGod]

All vehicles flex to a point and get weaker & weaker, but I have yet found a significant value for strut braces on a street car.

[NotStock88]

All vehicles flex to a point and get weaker & weaker, but I have yet found a significant value for strut braces on a street car.

and not everybodys car is JUST a street car.

[ucw458]

and not everybodys car is JUST a street car.

 

And you can't seem to realize most SQs are street cars. This discussion isn't just about YOUR car but everyones cars.

[NotStock88]

Ok, so its safe to say that sway bars are a better upgrade compared to strut bars.

With minimal upgrades and lavish driving one will not need strut bars, they just add to the look, UNLESS you are a more serious driver, aggressive one may say, when other upgrads are in place the strut bars will help keep the chassis stiff (mostly race scenarios).

 

Is this accurate?

 

i rest my case

Edited July 26, 2010 by NotStock88

[JohnnyWadd]

this is directed to JohnnyWadd:

 

I don't really feel like countering every point you've tried to make, because I can show you that your understanding of strut tower braces is flawed from the get-go.

 

on our cars, a brace that connects one strut tower to the other strut tower will only fight against a force that is attempting to compress the two towers together (or pull apart). It does not fight a twisting force. If you don't believe me, take your tower bar, cut it in half, bolt half of it on and then push down in it. the metal of the brace will flex downward with just the force of your body, which is many times LESS than the force of a 2800lb car with a full cornering load applied to the towers. that is a twisting force. so, not going to change axial flex in any way that one could logically claim as being noticeable.

 

now, lets get to the point of the amount of force a tower DOES combat against, compressive, either positive or negative (pulling apart).

 

to compress the towers together, requires a squeezing load applied to the tops of the towers (since that's the only place load gets transferred to, besides the subframe, via the control arm). so, for a squeezing load to get to the tops of the towers, that would mean you'd have to have a torque load applied sideways to the tires (imagine pushing sideway on the top of your tire, as a way to illustrate the direction of load).

 

now, theres not really much that's going to put a load in that direction on the tires, besides simple lateral grip (or hitting a curb sideways). as the load from lateral grip increases, the energy is absorbed by the shocks, by the springs, by every bushing, and by the tires. the amount of load required to compress the towers is GREATER than the amount of traction attainable by all but wide race slicks on a dry track (if even), for our cars. if it were otherwise, you'd have all of us having a problem with our fenders getting pushed against our hoods (which just doesn't happen).

 

so, for all but rally and maybe crazy track cars, tower braces are pointless. it's not like we're driving 74 datsun 510's with thin sheetmetal unibodies that rattle and twist and break spot welds. starions are built very strong.

 

LMAO.

 

 

so ralliart putting strut bars on their race cars had no meaning?

 

i would say they made a good product.

i guess some of the guy on here think they are chassis builders and say that they are just that has no use. i disagree

 

LMAO!! You guys are acting like SQ fanboys now... might as well say the SQ is the ultimate car EVER... IN THE UNIVERSE. The car flexes, not as much as some cars but it still does. That's a fact, plain and simple. Optimal handling characteristics are with a stiff as obtainable chassis. Is that what you guys are trying to do?? Settling for second best??

 

-Robert

 

exactly. every little improvement helps. here we have a guy that installed only a rear swaybar and is happy with it.

 

 

You guys realize the car flexing over time will make it weaker and weaker, right??

 

-Robert

 

no no no wrong the chassis gets stronger over time do to the tempering of the heat cycles versus the tire scrub radius wich acts as a countering force to the brace that is totally useless on these cars. (that was sarcasm in wich i was mocking the naysayers on this thread who need to self satisfy there need to seem knowledgeable by trying to knock tower brace with there half backed knowledge)

[JohnnyWadd]

this is directed to JohnnyWadd:

 

 

now, lets get to the point of the amount of force a tower DOES combat against, compressive, either positive or negative (pulling apart).

 

to compress the towers together, requires a squeezing load applied to the tops of the towers (since that's the only place load gets transferred to, besides the subframe, via the control arm). so, for a squeezing load to get to the tops of the towers, that would mean you'd have to have a torque load applied sideways to the tires (imagine pushing sideway on the top of your tire, as a way to illustrate the direction of load).

 

now, theres not really much that's going to put a load in that direction on the tires, besides simple lateral grip (or hitting a curb sideways). as the load from lateral grip increases, the energy is absorbed by the shocks, by the springs, by every bushing, and by the tires. the amount of load required to compress the towers is GREATER than the amount of traction attainable by all but wide race slicks on a dry track (if even), for our cars. if it were otherwise, you'd have all of us having a problem with our fenders getting pushed against our hoods (which just doesn't happen).

 

so, for all but rally and maybe crazy track cars, tower braces are pointless. it's not like we're driving 74 datsun 510's with thin sheetmetal unibodies that rattle and twist and break spot welds. starions are built very strong.

 

 

i just realized how stupid that all sounds. seriously the fenders and hood?? the towers can move without pulling them in.

so if no force is being applied then why does a old stock oem rubber mount have it center pushed sideways to the point that the car has camber? seriously just admit to being wrong and quite throwing out your wrong theories.

i might have to post up a pic of a old rear rubber mount i have. anyone who has been around sq's for a while knows at least about how the rears do that. they get force inward and the top of the tire get tilted in. you cant say there is no force being applied there. (well at least not without being full ot it)

 

 

because I can show you that your understanding of strut tower braces is flawed from the get-go.

 

on our cars, a brace that connects one strut tower to the other strut tower will only fight against a force that is attempting to compress the two towers together (or pull apart). It does not fight a twisting force. If you don't believe me, take your tower bar, cut it in half, bolt half of it on and then push down in it. the metal of the brace will flex downward with just the force of your body, which is many times LESS than the force of a 2800lb car with a full cornering load applied to the towers. that is a twisting force. so, not going to change axial flex in any way that one could logically claim as being noticeable.

 

 

 

 

 

awesome, you say my understanding is flawed yet you just showed how flawed yours is...the braces are not for fixing twisting forces...they are to keep the distance between the strut towers at a constant...during chassis flex...doins so will add some total stiffness to the chassis though.

 

 

If you don't believe me, take your tower bar, cut it in half, bolt half of it on and then push down in it. the metal of the brace will flex downward with just the force of your body, which is many times LESS than the force of a 2800lb car with a full cornering load applied to the towers. that is a twisting force. so, not going to change axial flex in any way that one could logically claim as being noticeable.

 

 

 

ya good idea lets cut up my brace and test it by leaning my body into it. thats smart. not. what would that test? tensile strength of the brace? no. its a push/pull not a flex. it the tensile strength. your whole arguement against the brace is based on "twist" and strut braces are not for that. most have pivots where they mount the the strut tower anyway. of course they dont stop twist. they locate the stut towers.

Edited July 26, 2010 by JohnnyWadd

[Burton]

The car is made out of good ol' steel... not unobtanium. Steel flexes.

 

-Robert

 

 

Bingo.

 

 

I can tell you 110% that strut tower braces will help. If your suspension is in pretty good shape it won't be very noticeable but it will help. In my old rusty POS that was really loosey goosey, I slapped the strut tower brace out of Kate's car and put it on mine so it looked cool for a show. It was a totally different car to drive. It didn't "fix" the rusty unibody and worn out suspension, but I was amazed in the difference I felt just from that strut brace. It tightened things up quite a bit. Of course, when I put one on my current car which has really nice suspension, it was hardly noticeable at all, but it does help. Any of you who think a strut brace won't help at all are just retarded.

 

 

Oh, and I have the ST sway bars on both cars and love them. They also didn't add much, but did add something. Worth the money in my book.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Burton

[Big Al]

After reading this whole thread, I'll put my simple comment in.

 

I have an '88 with 130k on the clock. It had no strut bars when I got it. I decided to pick a set up and being that all our cars were made EXACTLY the same, I would have imagined the strut bar would have slipped right on with no problem whatsoever. BUT lo and behold, when I attempted to install the strut bar, it wouldn't fit quite right just trying to set it down. It took a bit of work to get it on there properly. So for those that claim our upper towers don't flex inward at all over time, I think you need to TRY putting a solid strut bar on YOUR car and see just how much it HAS flexed in and is STAYING in before you throw these claims that strut bars are useless on a DD car. I found the rear was a similar problem though not NEARLY as bad as the front.

 

 

As for the sway bars, I think I'll replace the suspension first THEN I'll worry about the sway bars but they are definitely on the list of things to do (Besides, I want my 14mm impact socket back. It's been stuck on my left front sway bar bolt for a year and a half now if not longer).

[TopDawg_43]

 

(Besides, I want my 14mm impact socket back. It's been stuck on my left front sway bar bolt for a year and a half now if not longer).

 

 

I believe it's actually going on 3 years that thing has been on there.

[Killtodie]

http://tocando.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/internet-serious-business.jpg

[Big Al]

I believe it's actually going on 3 years that thing has been on there.

 

Very well could be. I lost track a while ago and don't really care since it's STILL there after a trip to Branson MO and back. I don't think it's going anywhere any time soon.

[Austin88ESiR]

 

 

WHO DOES HAVE strut tower bars installed, who agrees it helps and what kind of driving do you do to put them to use?

 

Back in the old MDSOG days, I was doing some autocrossing and I installed a GReddy strut brace in the front and I did notice a difference. It did seem as if the car did not plow as much through the turns. I had already installed ST sway bars front and rear and I know that made a world of difference and was already running Tokicos all the way around. I spun a bearing in the motor and I stopped autocrossing. Nowadays, I baby my car.

[dmyers151]

I noticed a huge difference in my car's handling after I installed my ST sways front and rear. It was much flatter in the turns and more responsive on turn in and transitions.

[jmmy]

I plan on upgrading my whole suspension all at once... That way the difference will be incredible. Sway bars, coilovers, shocks, struts, bushings, camber plates, everything.

 

And strut tower bars as well. To be honest, only because they look cool.

[NudeLobster]

After reading this whole thread, I'll put my simple comment in.

 

I have an '88 with 130k on the clock. It had no strut bars when I got it. I decided to pick a set up and being that all our cars were made EXACTLY the same, I would have imagined the strut bar would have slipped right on with no problem whatsoever. BUT lo and behold, when I attempted to install the strut bar, it wouldn't fit quite right just trying to set it down. It took a bit of work to get it on there properly. So for those that claim our upper towers don't flex inward at all over time, I think you need to TRY putting a solid strut bar on YOUR car and see just how much it HAS flexed in and is STAYING in before you throw these claims that strut bars are useless on a DD car. I found the rear was a similar problem though not NEARLY as bad as the front.

 

 

As for the sway bars, I think I'll replace the suspension first THEN I'll worry about the sway bars but they are definitely on the list of things to do (Besides, I want my 14mm impact socket back. It's been stuck on my left front sway bar bolt for a year and a half now if not longer).

 

bingo, my 87 only has 83k miles when I installed my rear strut tower brace, and it took some work to install. The towers and flexed toward each other. I couldn't install the mointing plates with the bar attached, I had to remove the bar, mount the plates, mount the bar to one side, and have my buddy wrestle the bar and pull it to the already mounted tower to get the other to line up while I wrestled the bolt in. They do flex. Al knows what's up

 

-Justin

[patra_is_here]

oops double post Edited July 26, 2010 by patra_is_here

[patra_is_here]

johnnywadd, you have some serious issues with reading comprehension. do you not understand that the examples I gave were to show both types of forces exerted (twisting and compression), and then went show that a strut bar won't stop twisting (using the half-bar + body weight example) and then show that the compressive force need to pull apart or push together a steel chassis is GREATER than the amount of force your tires could exert.

 

i just wanted to cover both aspects. and, then, for some reason, you pointed out the fact that I showed that they don't stop twist. be both agree they don't stop twisting.

 

yes, they located the towers, but, your towers are going to be located anyway. that's my whole point, there's just not enough load to 'flex' the chassis in any discernible amount.

 

and of course the rubber mounts wear out, RUBBER IS SOFT.

 

for all but a track car with race slicks or something like a rally car, strut braces are pretty much pointless for our cars. that's the only point i'm trying to make. they don't stop twist, and whatever compression that actually exists, will be unnoticeable.

 

and i'm done with this thread. don't bother replying.

Edited July 26, 2010 by patra_is_here