350 HP

[pc85]

JustPaus, your the man. Thanks for the links, will be doing some major homework. I live 35 mins from Lebanon, PA so shipping won't be an issue just drive up an see what they have. Awesome!

[jinx]

drove it for years and got hooked on the performance until I cracked the block

yet one more reason why I'd never pump alot of money into a G54 block. Read of too many here that cracked. Besides, oe pistons gone beyond 400 and none of the few 2.6s I've ever took apart had any cyliner wear or ridge/lip.

 

A Holset most like the best value performer, but you gotta sort out your hotside to optimize street performance. Just copy the sohc 2.3s off turboford.org.... very similar characteristics to our motor.

 

I chose the T3/T4 60-1, as its one of the most impressive G54 proven performers.

Great response, and killer *even at low boost*, where u need not worry about head gasket sealing problems (~23psi). Tainter went 12.4 at a measley 13psi with his.

I have friends get great results using the $550-600 Master Power alternatives... another option.

Got 'em from mikesturboinc.com in miami

 

For the megasquirt, I'll summon someone who has successfully run their fuel-only. Pay 'em a few bucks to sort u out, would be the less hassle-free route/shortcut. TBI-to-MPI conversion been detailed here in a few quick steps.

Most of the quickest starquests ran stock ignition/timing curve. It's that good!

[StarquestRescue]

I am just south off Lancaster PA. I saw your car at the dealership some years ago. That body kit really threw me. I thought i was looking at a wide body at first.

 

I have a good running tbi car if you want to check it out.

[pc85]

I am just south off Lancaster PA. I saw your car at the dealership some years ago. That body kit really threw me. I thought i was looking at a wide body at first.

 

I have a good running tbi car if you want to check it out.

 

No way! Great to know there's a local StarQuester. WE NEED TO HOOK UP. Email me

Edited November 7, 2009 by pc85

[pc85]

Quick question on turbos: oil cooled vs oil&water cooled. Which cooling system provides the best efficiency=longlongevity? I was under the impression that oil cooled only can have problems with oil clogging in lines, reducing cooling capacity and leading to turbine failure.

[Technology]

Use synthetic oil with a new turbo, especially if it's only oil cooled. All you do is drive easy with no boost for a couple minutes before shutting it off. Same as a turbo timer, all that does is get excess heat out of the turbo. It will only get so "cool" so idling for 2 more minutes won't really do anything. Anyway, that's about the only way you'd run into problems with oil coking is if you just did a huge 4th gear pull and turned it off.

[JustPaus_88TSi]

+1 to that.

 

It's about how the turbo is designed. Running oil only on a oil/wated cooled turbo would be very bad.

 

 

I have roughly 54K miles on an oil cooled 60-1 Garrett.

[Wizard]

I'm over here on the West side of the river in Wellsville/Dillsburg (just above York, PA.)of PA. area if your around. I am also in the same boat. Just rebuilt my motor at my machinest last year with alot of upgrades and going to start puttin more on. My machinest is a great engine builder and he is also cheap which is a rare find. He builds all the circle track race motors for the Grove and Susquhanna racers. Also builds just about anything in between also. If you need machine work done I can give you his name.

I have a conquest motor for sale also if your interested in it.

 

Wizard

[mstieg]

I may be biased, but I'm also a rare one on here who actually has gone with a Borg Warner turbo by Bullseye. Take a look at the S200 series. Their S256 is perfect for this motor if you want a mix of street and strip with huge hp potential, especially without requiring a boatload of boost. I got 280rwhp at 11psi, and 352 at only 15psi with this. It'll cost 1100-1200, but is worth the extra few hundred for the lower boost and reliability of the engine in my opinion.

 

Bullseye S200 line

 

Scroll down this link to the S256 74/64 .55 A/R The .55 A/R helps spool it faster. The fins in this thing are sharp & curved very aggressively and it whirs and howls like no other street car turbo I've heard. VERY efficient how this thing spools. Oil cooled only btw, but it's a full stainless steel housing which disperses heat amazingly fast.

 

I was going to go with the smaller of the 2 S256s (69.5, 61.5), but they were out of stock so I got the 74/64 option, and truthfully, it's a perfect match for the higher output & flow of the G54b at 2.6 liters, whereas most are using smaller 2.0s and have to rev through the roof to spool em. I got this sucker to put out 3psi at 1k rpms on the speed controlled dyno. Granted, I have Chad's equal length header and his MPI intake with 2.5 IC piping on a big top mount ebay IC, but those all sound to be within your budget also. Mine took years to piece together and still a work in progress, but it seems like you're willing to bank this type of setup all at once. Do it right the first time.

 

Contact BROWN on here and he'll help you get your Bullseye turbo at a better rate (assuming he's still a rep for them).

 

Also contact Chad to put in your order for his manifolds. He may need time to build them.

 

Would I love to be the first one on here to really bust out some crazy numbers with this setup? - sure. But I'd rather have others do the same and enjoy their SQs vs. dinking around with cheap turbos (or spending the same on Garretts or GT35r) that all need 30-35+psi to hit 350+hp.

[pc85]

mstieg, will be checking out the Borg Warner S200 series and make some comparisons with Garrett's T3/T4 designs,(justpaus also suggested them). Others have suggested working with "Chad", how do I contact him, does he have a site?

 

Just got the Wiseco pistons from Randy, next big ticket item will be the turbo. Going to have to change fuel management systems since FIP is out. As far as IC/TB pipes, does it make a lot of difference to go 2.5" with stock TB 2" inlet? Won,t that just cause a choke point?

[pc85]

+1 to that.

 

It's about how the turbo is designed. Running oil only on a oil/wated cooled turbo would be very bad.

 

 

I have roughly 54K miles on an oil cooled 60-1 Garrett.

 

 

I was referring to oil only turbo designs vs oil/water turbos, not thinking of running oil/water on oil only. Wanted to know if there was a big difference on cooling efficiency between one design over the other. Technology answered that.

[Technology]

 

 

Would I love to be the first one on here to really bust out some crazy numbers with this setup? - sure. But I'd rather have others do the same and enjoy their SQs vs. dinking around with cheap turbos (or spending the same on Garretts or GT35r) that all need 30-35+psi to hit 350+hp.

 

Sounds like you don't want to spend the money for q16, lol. I didn't know what intake manifold you had, but I guess I can see why you made so much at only 15psi. More flow.

[jinx]

Pay attention to what has been going on with the G54 for years.

Paying $1500 for a turbo will make you no quicker or provide better response than a well matched $250 holset or even an ebay job for that matter.

The quickest street 2.6s were all "dinking around with cheap turbos".... figure it out

 

Turbo is not where the magic is imo. Chasing "big G54 hp numbers" will be a lesson in inefficiency at best.... then there is the risky business of reshaping your torque curve.

 

While 352hp @15psi is commendable, a tbi car with much less into it, dyno'd ~350 @18psi.

That 12.4sec street SQ (60-1 @13psi) had to be up there I reckon. 60-1 has dyno'd 407hp @19psi.

The point is, something as trivial as a dyno reading or a better camshaft, can make all the difference (as the 350hp tbi car demonstrated).

That's why many of us stick to proven combinations with ETs... where the bs stops.

[Technology]

Pay attention to what has been going on with the G54 for years.

Paying $1500 for a turbo will make you no quicker or provide better response than a well matched $250 holset or even an ebay job for that matter.

The quickest street 2.6s were all "dinking around with cheap turbos".... figure it out

Lets play a game, we'll get one car, you can go first. You put your best 250 dollar holset on there, go to the drag strip and go to the dyno, post numbers and charts. Now give me the car and 1500 to spend on a turbo, and I'll get a ball bearing HTA88, then I'll put up numbers and I guess we'll see what happens.

 

Turbo is not where the magic is imo. Chasing "big G54 hp numbers" will be a lesson in inefficiency at best.... then there is the risky business of reshaping your torque curve.

Yes it is where the magic is. Any different cam will change where the torque peak is.

 

While 352hp @15psi is commendable, a tbi car with much less into it, dyno'd ~350 @18psi.

That 12.4sec street SQ (60-1 @13psi) had to be up there I reckon. 60-1 has dyno'd 407hp @19psi.

The point is, something as trivial as a dyno reading or a better camshaft, can make all the difference (as the 350hp tbi car demonstrated).

That's why many of us stick to proven combinations with ETs... where the bs stops.

 

That tbi car had what you might call a really expensive turbo and a lot of time and effort spent to make it right. What kind of car made 407 at 19psi on a 60-1, a honda or DSM?

 

And ET can change with a new set of tires and no performance mods. the 12.4 you're talking about is the Tainters, right? They had a lot of stuff done to that car. slicks no doubt.

 

I don't know why you'd use outdated technology and old schools of through when trying to go fast. cheap turbo's are stupid, you get what you pay for, absolutely.

[jinx]

Lets play a game, we'll get one car, you can go first. You put your best 250 dollar holset on there, go to the drag strip and go to the dyno, post numbers and charts. Now give me the car and 1500 to spend on a turbo, and I'll get a ball bearing HTA88, then I'll put up numbers and I guess we'll see what happens.

Read my 1st statement. Deal with FACTS, rather than a desperate trek into the land of make believe.

.....or better yet, SHOW us these fast street G54s using expensive turbos. We've seen a bunch of proof to challege.... start with the 5speed TBI starlet; 10.3sec, *EBAY* t3/t4@22psi

 

That tbi car had what you might call a really expensive turbo

and I gave comparable 'cheap turbo'd' 2.6s so you'd get it.

 

and a lot of time and effort spent to make it right.

bingo!! ....and u still don't clearly see THAT is where the magic is, effort.

 

What kind of car made 407 at 19psi on a 60-1, a honda or DSM?

no, guess again. A 2.3 ford, VERY similar to our 2.6 VE, characteristics and output. In fact Greg O posted in detail on SQC just before Tainter got the exact same t3/t4 60-1. Figure that out.

 

And ET can change with a new set of tires and no performance mods. the 12.4 you're talking about is the Tainters, right? They had a lot of stuff done to that car. slicks no doubt.

Yes & a cheap turbo. I only pay attention to cars that have max'd out their combos

 

I don't know why you'd use outdated technology and old schools of through when trying to go fast.

Dude, go look at the motor under your hood, then come back and reread your remark. Makes as much sense as the notion, "expensive turbo = quicker car".... or "megasquirt cars r slower", etc - lol

 

cheap turbo's are stupid, you get what you pay for, absolutely

Then the quickest street starquest ever to post here, has no clue as to what he was doing. T04B

Neither did Tainter (12.4 @13psi), Q (60=1 @22psi/11.8 et), Bulldog (t3/t4 11.3), Rollo (11.2/20G)... and a host of other standouts.... who "got what they paid for".

[pc85]

I'ld really like to keep this thread focused on producing max HP, I'm not about time trials as I've mentioned in a previous post. Anybody knows there's a lot more to time trials than HP: clutch, tires, driver. Two cars, same HP with me driving one of them would have the worst time possible, a lot of HP and a clutch or tires that don't grip won't go anywhere very fast. All points well taken but ETs may not be relevant to this application.

[jinx]

I think we've covered all the bases here.

Play it safe would be to stick to the beaten path imo. Enough proven G54s to copy.

 

Most folks are brainwashed by the, "u get what u pay for" horse5h1t, and that's fine.

On the other hand, a select few of smarter folks have/can think their way outta that "box", and subscibe to the philosophy of, "doing more using less".

 

Applies to ANY motor. For example, speaking of producing max HP, our corolla clubmember dyno'd the highest hp documented from a stock 1.6L bottom end... 613hp street car!

These oe pistons cost ~$50 ea from the greedy toyota dealers.

Standalone; megasquirt

Turbo; same $250 ebay T-70 used by a few here, except with upgraded compressor wheel & 35+psi.

....and "geting what u pay for" is supposed to be a bad thing ? ummmmmm, ok - lol

[Tim_C.]

Well, it is never a good idea to max out any combination. That is when every wear part on it needs replaced when the first part goes out because all of them will be showing excessive wear by then.

 

The point people are trying to make is the cheap turbos don't last. The better sized, more quality built one will not be run maxed out and heat up, and will last a lot longer. There are many obvious gains from not running parts to their max. That is rule # 1 for most of us, starting with don't turn up the boost so much it overheats the charge, and certainly not if you don't have the fuel to keep up at 80% duty cycle on the injectors or less.

[mstieg]

Well, it is never a good idea to max out any combination. That is when every wear part on it needs replaced when the first part goes out because all of them will be showing excessive wear by then.

 

The point people are trying to make is the cheap turbos don't last. The better sized, more quality built one will not be run maxed out and heat up, and will last a lot longer. There are many obvious gains from not running parts to their max. That is rule # 1 for most of us, starting with don't turn up the boost so much it overheats the charge, and certainly not if you don't have the fuel to keep up at 80% duty cycle on the injectors or less.

 

my point exactly. I thought the Tainters ran more boost than that on their 12.3 run pretty sure it was 25-30psi and the 13psi run was low 13s (could be wrong). Either way it's good. I do know they had a very aggressive cam, oversided valved and HEAVY porting with monster injectors, which ended up catching fire when the seals blew out from excessive fuel pressure! Mine's at a comfy 39psi base fuel pressure on 65lb injectors Tainters also had an IC the size of my desk. Maybe the 60-1 is better with the long runner small plenum Magna while the S256 is better with the shorter runner, bigger plen Chad intake?

 

Point is, of course the other mods need to agree and tuning etc, needs to be ideal. That is assumed in this poster's request. Comparing turbos by referencing other engines can in theory, but does not always apply however, especially with a SOHC with higher displacement, which is more rare.

 

To each their own of course. Not knocking anybody's choice at all. Just going with what I know and have personally seen, which is only a small sample compared to the collective board knowledge here.

Edited November 18, 2009 by mstieg

[jinx]

"optimize" may be a better word than "maximize". Refering to the use of slicks comment.

Anything less couldn't be considered as a serious attempt.

 

That 12.4sec 60-1 was nowhere near max'd. At 25-30psi you'd be flirting with 10s on a G54 (as the aussie 10.5s 2.6 galant did).... but at the same time it has still proven a tough customer on low boost/pump gas/street tune - which would hit 350 just as easily.

eipquest replaced his T04B with a 60-1. 430hp atw on pump gas tune & stock cam! Nuff said.

In addition to the 11.7sec 2.3 sohc ford, I posted a 1st gen 300zx & 280zxt both cruising to mid 11s at only ~23psi, both heavy 3300+ pound, tire-smoking pigs. 60-1 has earned its reputation.

 

Cheap turbos in this context is anything in the what used to be 'normal' price range, ie. $600 and lower. Not the $1200++ 'wonder boys' of today, with all the "paper stats".

Ebay unit prices has set their own standard by raising (or lowering?) the bar, in the value for money department.

Nobody can deny they have proven themselves in numerous 1st rate performances... as well as the fact that there are countless sold out there still holding up. Live with it.

 

Ets introduced here, for the same reason they're publisicised for every new car road tested, with no connotations of being a 'drag racer'. Can u suggest a better yardstick for communicating street car performance level ?

[pc85]

Obviously there's a lot of choices for turbos and probably many options can be optimized based on supporting mods and tuning. Definitely, the turbo is a huge piece of the performance puzzle. So lets talk tuning; what fuel mngt system is the easiest to tune and install: Megasquirt, LeBeaux, Greddy Emanage, Haltex? I've read about issues with Megasquirt and LeBeaux, feedback on a couple of other systems would be ... priceless.

[JustPaus_88TSi]

Budget for EMS?

 

 

 

I will always suggest finding a local tuner/shop who has solid credibility on the streets, pay the money and have them do it for you.

 

If you have the money, there are a couple people who will fly to you in order to install and tune your setup. Mostly things like AEM, MOTEC, Pro-EFI etc...

[Technology]

*ruffles mustache*

 

Well, as far as installing an ems, you should do it yourself. But when it comes to tuning, I would absolutely suggest finding someone with experience and training. Someone who's a factory certified tuner for your specific system is ideal. I just happen to know a tuner locally who is certified by AEM to tune their system and that's who I went to.

 

For TBI, leave the stock calculator in place and just install a piggy back something or other so you can adjust fuel.

 

For MPI, it all depends on how loose you are with your wallet, or if you snipe good deals, which generally requires being a member of multiple internet forums and lurking in the FS section a lot. lol. That's what I did, and now look at me, I took my engine apart for the 17th time.

[pc85]

Budget for EMS?

 

 

From what I've seen on the net, budget can range from $700 (Greddy)-$1200(HALTECH F10X). I'm more concerned with convenience and ease of install than cost. As far as I know, there are only two local Questers that have chimed in on this thread and who would probably be willing to help out. May be I'll fly one of you guys in to help with the install and tuning when the time comes and take a little vacation in Amish country, lol.

[Shelby]

the Tainters ran that 12.4 with a worn out engine @ 15 lbs or very close to it,, your forgeting they were MPi, with a magna intake

the engine had 105 lbs compression , i know cause i did the comp test 2 days before they ran it , i also change'd the cam timeing and replace'd a dist advance spring, some one had install'd a v8 chev spring, way too strong

also a few other tweeks here and there

 

and yes they had slicks and an alum fly wheel , and the car suck'd driveing in town traffic lol, and that big turbo took almost 4k rpms to realy make boost ,

and that was one of the problems with the car noseing down right after launch

once the rpms drop'd from the slicks grabing