Tornado mod in Injector TB

[Yellow_quest]

now, I could be wrong here, but our "splitter" in the "mixer housing" (read: injector housing) is there to STOP swirl, our injectors are an "umbrella" pattern, this is an oddball spray pattern that acutally looks like an umbrealla, the more swirl in that mixer housing, the less Fuel to Air absorbsion rate is., the injectors need to umbrella and swirling air wont allow that.  thats why you have problems with a removed seperator, fuel wash issues.

 

 

 

I'll add my 2.6L to this topic yet again...

 

Yellow_quest

[Boosted_One]

now, I could be wrong here, but our "splitter" in the "mixer housing" (read: injector housing) is there to STOP swirl, our injectors are an "umbrella" pattern, this is an oddball spray pattern that acutally looks like an umbrealla, the more swirl in that mixer housing, the less Fuel to Air absorbsion rate is., the injectors need to umbrella and swirling air wont allow that.  thats why you have problems with a removed seperator, fuel wash issues.

 

 

 

I'll add my 2.6L to this topic yet again...

 

Yellow_quest

 

Your on track with the air foil.

 

An air foil  functions to smooth the air entering the plenum. It is meant to cut down turbulence.

 

We have one in our stock TBI setup.

[rjf]

Ratmtattat wrote

"Just a minor nitpick, but centrifugal force doesn't exist.  Centripital does. Check it out sometime, it's a pretty interesting thing to read about."  

 

I have been programming too long, my last engineering class was before most of the folks on this board were born, but as I recall both forces exist and they are

opposites.  

 

Centrifugal force is a force that drives mass to the outside (example: mass in motion

wants to travel in a straight line, if you spin it, it moves to the outside of the spin);  Centripetal force is a force that drives things toward a center (example: gravity).

 

For all of those folks who have used a Tornado, or seen it used, I have not read

in this string of any that were used on a wet manifold.  

This thing may work on a dry manifold but that is an entirely different situation

[Ratmtattat]

Centrifugal force is a force that drives mass to the outside (example: mass in motion

wants to travel in a straight line, if you spin it, it moves to the outside of the spin);  Centripetal force is a force that drives things toward a center (example: gravity).

 

 

The force you feel when you turn really fast and "feel" the body moving towards the outside of the vehicle isn't centrifugal force.  Rather, it's basically the body's inertia being suddenly shifted.  

 

Links:

 

here's one

 

another one

 

three

 

four

 

That's all for now.  If you want more info, just type in "Centrifugal force does not exist" into google and enjoy the myriad of results.

[Metric-man]

now, I could be wrong here, but our "splitter" in the "mixer housing" (read: injector housing) is there to STOP swirl, our injectors are an "umbrella" pattern, this is an oddball spray pattern that actually looks like an umbrella, the more swirl in that mixer housing, the less Fuel to Air absorbsion rate is., the injectors need to umbrella and swirling air wont allow that.  thats why you have problems with a removed seperator, fuel wash issues.

 

I'll add my 2.6L to this topic yet again...

 

Yellow_quest

 

Great insight I have never read some one stating that about our injectors I knew there was something special about the spray pattern..." umbrella pattern" that's a great description..

I thought there might be a problem with placing a "vortex generator " so close to the injectors.. That’s why I'm opting for the begging of the OVCP I want to be running a AUX injector on the OVCP 2/3's the way to the housing (H2o/ alky mix) but to tell you the truth the Tornado is the last thing I want to throw into the equation when I'm trying to tune the thing.

 

( Is that what you meant Boosted_one by "gaggle of external stuff"?)

 I meant movable parts. Meaning a gaggle of external stuff installed into the intake tract. Sorry for the misconfusion.

 

I'm surprised you would even admit that you actually touched one!

 

I know exactly what a Tornado is as I helped my friend put one in his 2001 Celica.

 

Tornados are such a hard sell that's probably the biggest thing against them.. I'm sorry if I came off a little verbose.

 

 

What is the big deal with the wet manifold and a dry manifold?

 

For all of those folks who have used a Tornado, or seen it used, I have not read

in this string of any that were used on a wet manifold.  

This thing may work on a dry manifold but that is an entirely different situation

 

I would think a wet manifold especially in our case is to pre warm the fuel for better atomization so the Tornado might actually cool the fuel with all the turbulence?

[Yellow_quest]

wet manifold is a manifold where mix'd fuel/air move thru it, IE: TBI on the Cameros, the fuel was mix'd then sent thru the intake manifold to the head.

 

 

Dry manifold: look at a 1g DSM, talon, eclipse, or laser, see how the injectors are close to the head? (hell look at a magna MPI quest!) the air can travel thru the manifold  then the fuel is mix'd Right at the entry point to the head (Superior Design for power and proper F/A ratio).

 

 

 

this has turned out to be a damn good info topic.

 

 

Yellow_quest

[kev]

Well here is some actual info on one of those tornado things:

 

This is all documented on the www.f150online.com boards.  Situation was a 5.4L 2wd ford f-150 with several mods.   The owner of this truck dragraces it almost every weekend.   He slapped on one of these tornado things and was getting times that weren't up to par.   During the middle of the day, he yanked out the tornado and ran the truck on the 1/4 for 3 more runs.   With the tornado OUT of the vehicle and all the same mods, same day, same climate conditions, same driving style, etc.  he average 2 tens of a second FASTER in the quarter mile.

 

Like I said this is all documented in the f150 message board which includes the time slips and even several digital pics that his friend took of him actually ripping out the tornado and in the background you can see the track, lol.  

 

So even on a N/A vehicle, they are crap.  

 

I would never even consider one of these things in any car.

 

Oh not to mention, many f150 owners who have or had these said there is an annoying whistle when they are in.  The one owner said the whistle was louder than his flowmaster 40 series exhaust piping, lol.

[Metric-man]

Taking tips on from a  guy racing an F150? The guy probably had it in backwards and didn't even know it.

 

Oh not to mention, many f150 owners who have or had these said there is an annoying whistle when they are in.  The one owner said the whistle was louder than his flowmaster 40 series exhaust piping, lol.  

 

 

(Probably stuck backwards in his tail pipe.)

[kev]

Taking tips on from a  guy racing an F150? The guy probably had it in backwards and didn't even know it.

 

It's a helix, it wouldn't even matter if it was in backwards anyways.    Don't put down the ford guys.   Some of them have a hell of a lot more experience then the guys on this board.   They have to considering they have a lot more electronics in these late model f-150s then we do in our conquests.    

 

Plus this guy is very reputable on the f-150 boards, he is like Shelby on our boards.  You guys could tell me whatever you want about those tornados, it would be hard to outprove the evidence I saw, that is all I am saying.    However I never owned one.

 

kev

[Quest4Power]

Well here is some actual info on one of those tornado things:

 

This is all documented on the www.f150online.com boards.  Situation was a 5.4L 2wd ford f-150 with several mods.   The owner of this truck dragraces it almost every weekend.   He slapped on one of these tornado things and was getting times that weren't up to par.   During the middle of the day, he yanked out the tornado and ran the truck on the 1/4 for 3 more runs.   With the tornado OUT of the vehicle and all the same mods, same day, same climate conditions, same driving style, etc.  he average 2 tens of a second FASTER in the quarter mile.

 

Like I said this is all documented in the f150 message board which includes the time slips and even several digital pics that his friend took of him actually ripping out the tornado and in the background you can see the track, lol.  

 

So even on a N/A vehicle, they are crap.  

 

I would never even consider one of these things in any car.

 

Oh not to mention, many f150 owners who have or had these said there is an annoying whistle when they are in.  The one owner said the whistle was louder than his flowmaster 40 series exhaust piping, lol.

 

 

so maybe that's where the increased fuel mileage comes from?  it lowers power so the truck uses less fuel!  Brilliant! : ;D

[Metric-man]

Well here is some actual info on one of those tornado things:

 

 

Yeah right , If there was any info why didn't you post the link to the info?

 

No you just post the generic start page of a guy that knows a guy I think that races F-150's or maybe 450 diesels what ever... it's all there ...

 

Post the link to the info or.....

call some one who cares (how ever I never owned one?)

 

I found some info on the Tornado on your F-150 website...

 

http://www.f150online.com/forums/showthrea...threadid=118933

[Morphing89TSI]

sheese it got hot in here!  :-/

Just let the guy try the thing out in his quest and let us know what the results are from "real world" tests.

 

Morphing89TSI

[kev]

I looked yesterday for the page but had no luck in locating it.  I read that info in 2001 and it was posted by "Neil" but I couldn't locate the thread by his name.  

 

You don't have to believe me, that is fine.  I won't loose any sleep over it, lol

 

kev

[kev]

Well I spelled his name wrong, it is Neal not Neil.   Anyways I still can't find his original post on this matter.   I found a few replies from him warning people not to buy the spacer but can't find the original info post that I remember seeing.  

 

Here is his gallery and email info.   Shoot him an email if you want to know everything about what he did, etc.   I am done looking, I really don't care.  

 

http://www.f150online.com/galleries/mygallery.cfm?gnum=634

 

http://www.f150online.com/forums/member.ph...&userid=494

 

 

His truck is very impressive for an N/A 5.4 liter full size ford.   Notice the pic on the bottom of his one page.  He blew away a 99 cobra on the track.

 

kev

[kev]

Ok, I can't believe I am still on this thread but I thought I might share some of my insight on the tornado's design.

 

The helix is designed to create more laminar flow, which in theory is a great.   However I discussed somthing like this matter with my machinist last year when I was building my engine.   Pure laminar flow in the intake manifold can also impact the performance negatively.  Reason being is that slightly turbulent flow does one really good thing, it helps distribute the mixture nicely.  Not only does it help mix up the fuel and the air, it also creates a nice even distribution of fuel/air all throughout the TB, plenum, and runners.    Now a trick may be to try to get the slightly turbulent air from the TB and runners in the intake turned back to laminar.   One trick of the trade is to machine in slight swirls in the runners in the head to push that mixture back into a smooth pattern for when it enters past the valves (this is what my machinist wanted to do with my head, I haven't had it done though, yet, still thinkinga bout it).    

 

I have to admit, I just re-read all of Metric's posts in detail and the one thing I do agree with is placing the helix at the beginning of the OVCP.   I am assuming by beginning of the OVCP you mean at the forward side of the car, as in the air will hit the helix and then travel through the OVCP.    This might be worth a shot, it will help the air stay laminar and push it through the OVCP faster and then the TB and intake will work as they always do (as discussed in my previous paragraph).    

 

What I think is happening with these tornado owners is that the tornado is placed directly on the TB and it is doing exactly what I said in my first paragraph, creating a bad situation.  I think it is good to let the TB and intake do its job in creating the mixture and leave the playing with the airflow part of it earlier up in the line like Metric mentioned.    Or down near the valves like my machinist mentioned (but I am still not sold on that even though he claims that he does it on a lot of his customers racing engines and has great results).   See, automobile engineers do a great amount of work in fluid mechanics within their intakes, however one area that is kinda slacked is in the pre-intake piping (which is evident by all the hp increases and such created by a K&N, manral tubing, etc).    So why not leave the TB/intake area alone and just factor in the part of trying to get more air to the TB faster such as using bigger pipes, possibly the poweraid system, etc?   The only thing I really would do to the TB/intake system is bore it bigger but leave the same type of surface finish and overall design in place (which includes not installing a poweraid in that area).

 

Let me know what you guys think about what I said, I have thoughts flying like mad and usually have trouble putting them into words.

 

kev

 

P.S.    Sorry about the kind of switched views I am giving in between my posts here.   I should have read the earlier replies in better detail.   In all, I believe a helix placed somewhere in the intercooler piping away from the TB might be a horsepower increase, but I still feel that the helix right on the TB is not a hp increase.  

[Metric-man]

Kev that information really added to this post...

 

I've been thinking lately about our intake pipes and that description about laminar airflow was excellent.

 

Living in California with the toughest smog cops in the nation you really can't be using an MPI like the Magna on the street unless someone licenses them through those smog nazis or you'll have to be changing your intake every other year for test only stations.

 

I would like to see some one design an OVCP that acted more like a plenum and see what advantages that gave our intake systems.

I know that would be dealing with hood restrictions, but I think it could be done.

[Blackstar]

Any results yet? Just curious. If it works, I'll be in line to purchase one.

Make sure to let us know.

 

Mike

[s.kodai]

just got dome with page one.

 

rjf, someone already busted your balls on the centrifugla force thing.  it does not exist.  the force we think of as centrifugal is really INTERTIA.

 

also, GRAVITY IS NOT CENTRIPITAL FORCE.  gravity is one of the prime forces of the universe, and has NOTHING to do with rotation.  it is based TOTALLY on MASS.  it is simply the interaction of tides that force the rotation stellar bodies.   (i think, this is getting a little advanced).

 

your body has gravity, just not very much, cause you don't have much mass (on a planetary level, anyway)  it it the attraction of your mass to the mass of the earth that keeps you help to the ground.  if we can ever find something with ZERO mass

 

got done with page two.  kec, yes, that seems to be true.  you want the laminar flow when you are dealling with the air only, like in the exhaust, laminar flow is critical to exhaust  velocity.

 

however, once you add fuel to the mix, laminar flow prohibits the mixing of the fuel.  tho you want a LITTLE, to keep intake velocity, but you want most of the intake to be turbulent.  that is why when doing head porting, the exhaust is poilished, but the intake is left with 120 grit  grinding marks.  you want the turbulence to mix up the fuel.

 

rant over.  if anyone can school me on the physice presented here, i don't know everything, but want to, so go for it.

[ezearrl]

Just based on pure aerodynamics, the splitter is in the throttle body to create turbulence.  If it were not there, there would be less turbulence downstream.  The fact that Mitsubishi engineers placed a turbulator just before the injectors indicates that a turbulent or random air flow improves atomization of the air fuel mixture.  This would seem appropriate given the umbrella spray pattern of the injectors.  Without the turbulator, a relatively laminar air flow would pass by the injectors, thus increaseing the air fuel ratio in the intake along the side of injection, and conversely lowering the a/f ratio opposite the side of injection by simple interference from the fuel spray.  This would no doubt cause high pressure downstream of the injectors on the injection side of the intake, just like a back eddy in a river, only this eddy is up against the barrier of the fluid flow (the intake wall), decreasing velocity of the air flow even further due to the increased friction from the static pressure against the intake wall.  Since high pressure seeks low pressure, the relative difference along the intake would cause the slower, fuel rich flow to cross to the non injection side of the intake plumbing, and in effect bend the air flow towards the low pressure.  The high pressure "wall" would increase air flow along the low pressure side of the intake.  When the two air flows of different velocity meet, we will finally have our mixing and a relatively even a/f ratio achieved.  The only problem is that by the time this would have occured, the air flow has been redireted down seperate individual runners.  The result is an uneven mixture in each combustion chamber.  

 

Now this seems very unlikely that an engineer would want to split air flow velocity and create an unbalanced final a/f ratio.  The turbulator works to mix the fuel fast by introducing random turbulent air to the fuel spray.  The laminar flow along the intake walls helps to stabilize flow and maintain velocity after mixing has occured.  The size of the turbulator and the wake it creates are what the engineers spent their time developing.  They want as small a wake, aka 'turbulent flow pattern' immediately prior to the introduction of fuel as possible, then enough distance for atomization to occur, then a return to as laminar a flow as possible, for velocities sake.  

 

By modifying the turbulator, one could improve atomization and the overall velocity of the flow downstream of the injectors and upstream of the runners.  

 

To think about it purely in equational form, the area times the velocity in the intake will equal a constant.  The larger the turbulator, the less the area in the intake, the greater the velocity of the flow.  The relative velocity will return the flow to laminar, it's just a matter of when.  Since the fuel atomization needs to occur prior to the runners and we want the flow to be as fast as possible, timing is critical.  If atomization occurs too late you need to come up with a different turbulator design.  If it occurs too soon, you may not get adequate fuel atomization.  Obviously the object is to get as close to perfect as possible.

 

The only way we will know if the Tornado in the throttle body is an impovement in performance is to try it.  I wish you good luck in your endeavor.  Let us know what results you have.  Improved/decreased fuel efficiency and WHP gains/losses from a dyno run before and after would be good for physical evidence of the findings in your experiment.

[lionbull]

i have acquired a stock starquest intake and would like to add 4 injectors and a rail to it. ofcource i have a haltech to control the extra four injectors. just something i dreamed up how would i go about this.

[Metric-man]

i have acquired a stock starquest intake and would like to add 4 injectors and a rail to it. ofcource i have a haltech to control the extra four injectors. just something i dreamed up how would i go about this.

 

I think you would get a better response if you post a question like that in the virtual mechanic forum or even the B.S. forum because it receives most of the traffic.

go to www.racetep.com an browse through it they developed one years ago...

Basically the stock setup with injector bungs placed in the top of each intake runner adding a fuel rail..

[gunpackingpoet]

Alrighty then... and in the end after having read all that... no results.

 

Has anyone installed it yet?  

 

A simple "it sucks" or "wow it works!" will work for me.  Let's just get it over with and find out!!

[jisleyjr]

After reading all that i was hoping for a big finish.  But nothing.  What happened?

[Guest]

SCC did a test on these things. I missed the issue but there was a lot of talk about it afterward....basicly they don't work. So I didn't buy one.

 

TJ

[JPX]

Guy's N Gal's:

 

  Heres the deal...

 

The air splitter in the TB was designed to direct the presurized air flow to make a 90' turn into the Intake Plenum where Both Injectors are located. The fuel atomized air path works its way past the TB Mixer Plate and then makes another 90' turn then a other 90' degree turn then splits.  The air flow path has to make not 1 but 3  90' short Radius turns or a total of 270' degree turn (Intake pipe to Head) into the opposite direction into the individual intake runners(round) for each Intake head port finally into the head.

 

Stock Fact***Air changes direction 3 times from  the intake pipe to the head***

 

The Tornado Generates a vortex which allows the air to flows better especially around 45-90' turns. Excellent solution for short radius turns

 

The concept is to improve on outdated Mitsu design.  "Just making things better"

It will improve Air atomization because the injection mixture takes place directly after the Tornado and in the air path.  

 

Better distribution and controlled airflow.  

 

Remember the air flow other wise just tumples to make the all three 90' degree turns (sum 270' degree) ... ???

 

Fluid Dynamics 101  ???

 

I have the Engineering degree to back up what I Propose...  8)

 

I'll keep you guys posed next week when it gets installed with my 1G Mass air flow

 

later... ;D