Dyno Results for a 1GMAS-14G-3in exhaust

[GoldNBlack]

Took the Starion to the dyno Saturday with a bunch of 3000GT guys and got my "before" baseline dyno done.  

 

'88 Starion, 103K miles on engine

1G intake system, (MAS, mas to turbo Boot,BOV)

14G turbo, stock 10psi (disabled the 7psi before 4K "feature")

Herons 3in SS exhaust

MSD 6AL, Bosch Red Coil

 

Roughly at sea level, about 80 degrees in the shop, they had blowers on the intercooler.  Seemed decent to me given the age of the engine and the fact that I'm pretty sure there is a crack that leaks some water.

 

Hope to do an "after" tuning dyno once I replace the head with all new parts, new timing chains and the TimC Monsta Banshee cam still sitting in the garage.  Just can't decide if I should save a little longer and do the entire bottom end too.....

 

http://goldnblack.net/starq/StarionDyno030802.jpg

[Boosted_One]

Not shabby! your almost 50HP at the wheels more than a bone stocker.

 

I also notice the HP starts declining after 4K.  Not as bad as my dyno runs though.

 

So what's next on the mod list?  ;D

[Lizzord30]

That is a nice looking dyno, nice and smooth, and not bad at all for not many mods

[importwarrior]

good run. nice to see the smooth flowing curve.

 

looks good!

[GoldNBlack]

Not shabby! your almost 50HP at the wheels more than a bone stocker.

 

I also notice the HP starts declining after 4K.  Not as bad as my dyno runs though.

 

So what's next on the mod list?  ;D

 

I assume you mean the TQ drop offs.  What has been the consensus on that?  Is it  bad exhaust flow through the exhaust valves, manifold and turbine housing?  It seems plenty of other graphs were that torque peak can be made higher with lots of boost but it almost always comes back down quickly and on cars with near stock turbo housings/manifolds it ends up down near 150-175 lb-ft of torque at 6000.  Wish there was more data out there to look at.  didn't we have a dyno thread here somewhere?

 

Next up: New Marnal head, TimCs Roller cam, new roller rockers, new valves, new springs, Hopefully I can afford a little port work when they assemble the head, TEP head gasket, head studs, new timing chain set.  Still thinking I should do the bottom end too.  I'm pretty sure I've got a small crack that lets in coolant when its really hot.  Its a gamble how much damage that has done already.  My old 12a was pretty crusted from the residue and Kevin C just HAD to post about how that little bit of coolant buring through will chew up the bottom end.

 

Steve

[Dcrasta]

Good looking Dyno sheet. U port that exhaust housing and manifold and u will pick up some high rpm power.

[Lizzord30]

Its all about da flow ;D First of all Stock intake needs alot of help too flow enof too have high rpm power. Also Turbo Air flow matters a ton! Need too look at the comp maps too know what kind of rpms at what psi and how much power it could make. Looking over the Comp maps is why i went with a 60-1, it in theory has enof air at just 8psi too make at lest 400hp and pull too 7k 8) My last turbo looked larger on the intake side but needed 25psi too suport 7k and still flows less and less efficant every where. Looking at the comp map and gestamating my engine VE you can Tell exactly why my latest dyno was like it was. Also after the dyno i ported the head and it made HUGE mid, high rpm gains. I persoanly dont think you need a mega huge exhaust side on the turbo too get enof exhaust flow for higher rpms, if you have a External waste gate. The exhaust output should be plenty good with a 2.5 x 2in turbo inlet (garrett t3) and a 1.5in Exhaust dump, BTW you can REALLY feel the more flow when the dump opens.

 

SOOO, well the 14g aint going too suport the higher rpms, a 16g may not even the 2.6 needs a good deal more air flow then a 2.0 too get the same rpms, and the 2.6 is a very crappy set up stock. The reson the drop off is later with higer boost is simple, you get more air at higher boost and that suplys more power up top, but it drops becuse of the poor flowing set up (exhaust side, intake side, ic, intake pipes, and Head). Plus the 14lb BS going twice as fast as the engine, and a 36lb fly wheel arnt helping any on the higher rpms. Also i Should note that i see a treand in 1g vs stock mass air dyno sheets, they seam too be VERY flat comapred too supper bad like the stock ones, 1g is probly alot more accurit and gives a very consistant reading vs stock.

 

Solution, Magna MPI intake, t3/t4 (60-1 or 62-1) with external waste gate exhaust dump or T4 60-1 with not an over sized exhaust size, At lest 2.5in ic pipes, a ic with at lest 2.5in in and out and preferably larger then stock, and at lest a 284 cam, 294 if you dont mind a slightly roughf idle (we have long stroke we need lots of duration).

[GoldNBlack]

Good looking Dyno sheet. U port that exhaust housing and manifold and u will pick up some high rpm power.

 

Knew I left something off the list.  The manifold IS ported and the ring removed with the ring side of the exhaust housing smoothed out to match.

[Boosted_One]

Its all about da flow ;D First of all Stock intake needs alot of help too flow enof too have high rpm power. Also Turbo Air flow matters a ton! Need too look at the comp maps too know what kind of rpms at what psi and how much power it could make. Looking over the Comp maps is why i went with a 60-1, it in theory has enof air at just 8psi too make at lest 400hp and pull too 7k 8) My last turbo looked larger on the intake side but needed 25psi too suport 7k and still flows less and less efficant every where. Looking at the comp map and gestamating my engine VE you can Tell exactly why my latest dyno was like it was. Also after the dyno i ported the head and it made HUGE mid, high rpm gains. I persoanly dont think you need a mega huge exhaust side on the turbo too get enof exhaust flow for higher rpms, if you have a External waste gate. The exhaust output should be plenty good with a 2.5 x 2in turbo inlet (garrett t3) and a 1.5in Exhaust dump, BTW you can REALLY feel the more flow when the dump opens.

 

SOOO, well the 14g aint going too suport the higher rpms, a 16g may not even the 2.6 needs a good deal more air flow then a 2.0 too get the same rpms, and the 2.6 is a very crappy set up stock. The reson the drop off is later with higer boost is simple, you get more air at higher boost and that suplys more power up top, but it drops becuse of the poor flowing set up (exhaust side, intake side, ic, intake pipes, and Head). Plus the 14lb BS going twice as fast as the engine, and a 36lb fly wheel arnt helping any on the higher rpms. Also i Should note that i see a treand in 1g vs stock mass air dyno sheets, they seam too be VERY flat comapred too supper bad like the stock ones, 1g is probly alot more accurit and gives a very consistant reading vs stock.

 

Solution, Magna MPI intake, t3/t4 (60-1 or 62-1) with external waste gate exhaust dump or T4 60-1 with not an over sized exhaust size, At lest 2.5in ic pipes, a ic with at lest 2.5in in and out and preferably larger then stock, and at lest a 284 cam, 294 if you dont mind a slightly roughf idle (we have long stroke we need lots of duration).

 

 

Excellent post!

 

Read it, then read it again.

 

Your dead on with the 60-1 summary. You sound like what my head was thinking when I was scoping out trims.

[Tim_C.]

Yes, but a big duration cam will not help spool, and those big turbos need all the spool help they can get, so you gain power up top, but lose quite a bit too on the bottom. If the big turbo spools to full boost below 3500RPM, then it is probably worth it, because the hi RPM gains far outweigh what is lost. But, if the turbo doesn't fully spool up before 4K, then you have lost so much ground by then, that it can't be made up in the 1/4 mile with the stock gearing. You would need the 3.90 or 4.10 rear gear to use a laggy turbo like that. Of course the stress is quite a bit more at 7000RPM+ too, so a lot can be said for keeping the power range down low. The longevity increases as the HP numbers decline. It's always a trade off for whatever a person wants, or pocketbook can afford?

The Monsta Banshee Cam will go higher than the stock cam, without losing low RPM power either, and in fact has better low RPM power. That is the advantage of the roller lobe, split pattern cam. He is peaking at about 5200RPM there, and that should go up to around 6K on a stock engine with the roller. That adds a good 1K RPM to the range with power throughout, on a relatively stock engine.

[Lizzord30]

A Properly sized turbo will have no spool up problems. The setup i have good deal of power by 2.5k. Faster spool is good and bad at the same time for street, if you hae a big turbo and is set up properly i garrentty you will have traction problems in the first 2 gears maybe even 3rd, A car with a higher power band will have a better change of hooking up. And if your talking about Drag racing (Slicks) I had no problems at all off the line with my turbo even tho city driving was a little laggy, But still got a consistant 1.8x 60ft and it was running like crap. I now have have went too a smaller exhaust wheel and smaller intake housing, with a larger intake wheel, So it should spool like a mad man ;D

 

I suposse all this talk totaly changes if your not MPI. If you want good power out of the conquest you really have too have a MPI. I really think a t3/t4 will out performe a T4 if the t3/t4 has a external waste gate dump, It will spool faster and will still have the over all exhaust flow at WOT when the dump is open. Not saying you cant get a t4 to work but a t3/t4 will be ezer too get set up right. The free cheap mods Montero with the 12a is more laggy then the old set up i had tho The 2.6 has one thing going for it, large engine size. Once you get this engine opend up (MPI, good ic pipes and exhaust, ported head, and ported ex man/header. I dont think its likely that he will ever get peak hp at 6k without a larger turbo, and or external waste gate  dumped. Even with my blown head gasket unported head, and a non fully loading dyno, i got full spool by 3.6k at the PA meet.

On a side note what kind of specs does the Monsta Banshee cam have? And is it only for ppl with poor spool up problems?

[Tim_C.]

Yep, do what it takes like you did, and you have a very good power band that almost can't be beat for the chosen set-up. Very nice.

Hydraulic Roller that uses the Mitsu 3.0L V6 SOHC roller rockers:

The Monsta’Banshee:

INT Duration @.050: .207°      Seat-To-Seat: 265°

EXH Duration @.050: .196°      Seat-To-Seat: 262°

INT Lift: .480

EXH Lift: .459

Lobe Center Separation: 111.5°

Power Range: 2500-6500RPM

Int lobe center = 107° (same as stock)

 

The cam is not actually designed for quick spool, but the design would be changed if it didn't help spool, since that is what most people seem to have problems with. It is primarily designed to make the most out of whatever boost is coming in the chamber. The Schneider cams allow a lot of boost to go out the exhaust without being used. They minimize that effect by widening the lobe separation very wide. Then they put a big duration and lift on it to give more power, even though a lot of it is wasted. Actually ther cam specs are intentionally too big, because it sells cams. Everyone gets sucked into the bigger is better on cams, so they give people what they want, when the power is not what it should be. So, the roller design I have, allows the boost to build up and fire a more powerful AF Mixture in the chamber. This increases low-end, and mid range tremendously, and the top end is better than stock, with only the higher lift & 2 degrees wider lobe sep, helping that. To be honest, you will need a big turbo, like you say, for this cam to take the engine to the 6500RPM upper band limit. Just about all cam companies give you a best case scenario with every mod you can think of, and use that for their power range RPM spec. I drove mine, and did not feel the need to shift until 6200 on a non-IC, 2.5 exhaust, otherwise stock engine (cam only mod). I did open up the shorty OVCP to a mandrel 2" pipe. I would say it actually started dropping off long before 6200, but the useable RPM still carried the car,i.e. increasing in speed about the same velocity, all the way to 6200.

Yeah, if you get a big turbo spooled under 3K, then you will have traction problems with this torquey, large displacement 2.6L.

[Boosted_One]

. I really think a t3/t4 will out performe a T4 if the t3/t4 has a external waste gate dump, It will spool faster and will still have the over all exhaust flow at WOT when the dump is open. Not saying you cant get a t4 to work but a t3/t4 will be ezer too get set up right.

 

 

This remains to be seen

 

The T4 is nice because of the split tang and v band options.

 

I have Tim C's mechanical cam. According to the specs it looks like it's going to spool this T4 up pretty nice.

[jinx]

I've seen t28 hybrid SR20s outperform t3/4 ones, just as I've seen lotsa t3/4 cars smoke T4 counterparts, but it all has to do with MATCHING your wheel & housings to your combination

Turboford guys have a wealth of t3/4 setups and their motor characteristics are very similiar to ours. Many 2.3s run in the 330hp/360tq to the wheels, range. I'd go up one size on the hotside housing because of our 2.6 vs their 2.3

Shooting for just a hi hp number tells nothing about the area under the torque curve. Look at the supras, then look at what a GN does with its lo hp, but HUGE torque swell, matched perfectly to its gearing.

Your turbine wheel will "allow" you to reach your power goal

Hotside housing size will determing the boost threshold/ rpm range

Choose the compressor wheel that flows enough. Comp housing has less of an effect on turbo performance.

Wheel weights have a dramatic affect too... in initial spool and response when shifting. Seen 50trim on DSMs outperform 60-1, same car.

I've seen too many full weight 10sec GNs with integral wastegates. I'll never run one until I'm in the 10s. They're hi boost cars that need *less* wastegate. If you run a hi flow turbo at low boost setting, you'll have problems without the external wastegate tho.

 

Lizzord30,

what compressor housing and a/r ?   60-1 wheel ?

what turbine wheel ?  what exhaust housing A/R ?

[Lizzord30]

I have this program Race shops use too see what mods will help so much and how too get the right cam for a car, well i typed my setup into it and deceided too see what just changing the cam would do. So using cam specs for schneiders page and the one time c posted here are some resaults. (remeber my set up so it may help others more or less)

 

Stock 264 Cam Hydro Slip

304 TQ @ 3650, 300 HP @ 5850

257 avg TQ, 221 avg HP

 

Stock 264 Cam Hydro Rollers

307 TQ @ 3650, 300 HP @ 5850

 

260 Schneider Mech

311 TQ @ 4200, 310 HP @ 5850

259 avg TQ, 225 avg HP

 

284 Schneider Hydro

307 TQ @ 4200, 314 HP @ 5850

256 avg TQ, 225 avg HP

 

Tim C's Cam Roller cam

306 TQ @ 3650, 294 HP @5850

256 avg TQ, 217 avg HP   Note about 200 rpms faster spool up

 

Too some it up, welll his cam would help spool on my car but over all perfoamance would be less then the 284H cam i have now. I have typed in many 2.6's and looking at their dynos it shows very close too what the actualy dyno came out too. Now this doesnt mean much too any one but me becuse its my set up, If it was a stock it most likely would be better, altho the mech cam looks pretty good even stock. This also shows why nick things he lost performance with the roller cam over stock with rollers, becuse he may have with his setup.

And about the V band and Split tang well i dont think the split tang will be much gain (like 5hp max and maybe 200 faster spool) But the waste gate dump makes large gain.

[Lizzord30]

A GN may be able too get 10's on a internal waste gate BUT their probably heavily ported waste gates that where larger then what we have too start with, and besides their 1.2L larger. I know for a fact that when the dump opens it really lunges forward.

i have a 60-1, hifi .60 ar intake housing, ,63 ar Exhaust housing and a stage 3 exhaust wheel (had a stage 5 before and spool up was decent sorta wish this had a stage 5 but got it cheap so yea...) As for response when shifting well it was really bad then i went too a bypass and it didn't drop at all for shifts (now i have a upgraded blow off). My theory is the exhaust side of the turbo means less with a external waste gate because the over all exhaust flow is still their (assuming you can still reach full boost which isn't a problem so far). I do want too have a choice of lower boost or higher boost so far i am more then happy with the external waste gate it sounds nice and preforms well, with alot more consistent reliable boost control then the integrals i have had.

[Boosted_One]

And about the V band and Split tang well i dont think the split tang will be much gain (like 5hp max and maybe 200 faster spool) But the waste gate dump makes large gain.

 

 

Dunno if the split tang itself will add HP but getting 200-400 rpms earlier spool up will be huge on an O trim .70 housing.

 

That's a big gain in my book.

 

It's all how it's set up.

[jinx]

Lizz,

yes, you do port the heck outta the stock GN wastegate hole

They have all sortsa stuff custom cast, so I'd imagine on the upgrade turbine housings, they designed the flapper & hole big enough.

If your car lunges foward right when your wastegate dumps, wouldn't that indicate backpressure building in your exhaust manifold? ..meaning smallish turbine housing?

Many fast....

DSMs 2.0 runs 0.63 hotside/ stg3/ 50 trim

2.3 fords run same turbo on the faster ones

SR20s run 0.82 hotside/ stg5, BUT ball-bearing

DSM 2.4 report 0.82/ stgIII/ 60-1 full boost at 3500

The way your car sounds like its running, you could possibly nail turbo sizing down, by swapping around housings & wheel combos. You won't have a problem selling the leftover stuff.

Are these "cheap" turbos available to everyone ?

Is your hawk controlling fuel AND timing ? u like it ?

Is your valvetrain quiet ? ....revs cleanly up to 6500 ?

[Lizzord30]

Lizz,

yes, you do port the heck outta the stock GN wastegate hole

They have all sortsa stuff custom cast, so I'd imagine on the upgrade turbine housings, they designed the flapper & hole big enough.

If your car lunges foward right when your wastegate dumps, wouldn't that indicate backpressure building in your exhaust manifold? ..meaning smallish turbine housing?

Many fast....

DSMs 2.0 runs 0.63 hotside/ stg3/ 50 trim

2.3 fords run same turbo on the faster ones

SR20s run 0.82 hotside/ stg5, BUT ball-bearing

DSM 2.4 report 0.82/ stgIII/ 60-1 full boost at 3500

The way your car sounds like its running, you could possibly nail turbo sizing down, by swapping around housings & wheel combos. You won't have a problem selling the leftover stuff.

Are these "cheap" turbos available to everyone ?

Is your hawk controlling fuel AND timing ? u like it ?

Is your valvetrain quiet ? ....revs cleanly up to 6500 ?

 

I know i have bad exhaust back pressure becuse of my exhaust manifold..... Its just a stock one with a garrett flang and waste gate flang welded on, its ported like made but if you look at the stock exhaust manifold cly 4 is VERY bad flow compared too the other 3, and the waste gate dump is made so if will flow well from cyl 4, thats mostlikely why it helps so much the cly that is poor flowing get the most flow from the exhaust manifold. I got it cheap becuse i know a guy that owns a turbo shope... so no not for everyone. I think the best exhaust side would be a .84 AR with stage 5 for over all power probly not quite as fast spool up tho.

The Hawk is controlling both timming and Fuel, altho i didnt have the ignitor when the car was last running so i didnt have ecu contorled timming (stock timming). Should be alot better now with ecu contorled timming once i get it tunned, and yes so far i really like the Hawk. I have not heard any valve train noise yet.

[Siance]

To large of a cam will change the charteritics of the 2.6...i like the fact that these cars have killer bottom end....Just for my needs, i would rather have a 300hp 400ft pound ft tq...than a 400hp 300 pound ft tq.....i have v8 roots, i want to lay heads back in the seat...maybe even pull the wheels off the ground ......i say if you want to rev 7 ....8 grand, get you a honda.....i 'll wait for you at the 1/4 mile end!!

[Lizzord30]

Just changing the cam aint going too change the charicter of the engine, if you got your turbo spooled down low it will make TQ. Its not like a 284 is anything agressive any ways. Doing alot of number crunching it looks like the 284H cam is the best for my car. I dont think you could make the 2.6 make 400hp and 300tq, 400 400 is more likely if it makes 400 400, spools by 3k (about as fast as stock) and pull too 6.5k it would be very fast and still have v8 style power.

[jinx]

I like 2 valve motors, as they always seem to produce more torque than hp... perfect! 400/400 would make a super daily driver, with killer midrange. You can shift your power around with turbo choice and cam.

 

0.82 A/R with stage5 should make super upper midrange

ball bearing would bring it in ~400rpms earlier, but cost to much

a good short runner header will help spool up considerably

 

How good will these cams work? only testing will tell. If anything like the Isky cam added to my na 3tc.... impact would be tremendous. Proved to me that cams designed right, really work

 

what ignitor AND distributor are you using with the hawk

Uses single coil or packs like the DSM

 

It'll be nice when all this camshaft, turbo sizing (mitsu & garret) stuff is actually tested, proven and documented. Maybe have a performance guideline page like what CNM did

[Boosted_One]

I like 2 valve motors, as they always seem to produce more torque than hp... perfect! 400/400 would make a super daily driver, with killer midrange. You can shift your power around with turbo choice and cam.

 

0.82 A/R with stage5 should make super upper midrange

ball bearing would bring it in ~400rpms earlier, but cost to much

a good short runner header will help spool up considerably

 

How good will these cams work? only testing will tell. If anything like the Isky cam added to my na 3tc.... impact would be tremendous. Proved to me that cams designed right, really work

 

what ignitor AND distributor are you using with the hawk

Uses single coil or packs like the DSM

 

It'll be nice when all this camshaft, turbo sizing (mitsu & garret) stuff is actually tested, proven and documented. Maybe have a performance guideline page like what CNM did

 

You ain't kidding about the testing stuff!

 

I am axious to see how Tim C's mech cam, Chads header and my TO4B .60 A/R 60-1 O trim split tang .70A/R are going to do.

 

I'd take 400/400!!  ;D

[Adi]

Well I wonder where I am then...

 

14G

1G MAS

3" AHP

284F

Mech NJV

MSD 6A

 

Exhaust I am slacking hardcore

Need valve springs

 

But I am runnign at teh moment 18psi max... and if I want turn a lil knobby on the EVCII and I can run 25+

 

Easily.... So I wonder where I am?

[JPX]

Great Dyno Run...

 

+40 hp over the stock is great...Congrats....