Re: 250 RWHP....My goal...can this get my here...?

[chiplee]

The conquest was made to compete with the corvette. I think what chip needs is my daddy's corvette to blow his a** away and then he'll really know what TQ is

;D

Oh yeah, well my dad could beat your dad's a**.  LOL, your "daddy's corvette"??? wt....?  I hope that was a joke, and I hope it's modded, cause firehawks are nearly as fast as C5 vettes, and the one time I was lucky enough to run a firehawk I won hands down.

[heefner]

I saw 2 quest at ATCO and Mapple Grove  this year run 12's on stock turbos.  One had a blow through carb setup and the other was running a 50 shot of NOS on the stock TBI.  Both cars were completly gutted. I'm talking steering wheel 1 seat and shift konb.  No head liner, no carpet, no radio, no molding, ect.  You can get in the 12's but the car will have to go on a serious diet.

If you want a street car that run's 12's you will almost have to have a true MPI.  If you look at Bill's car its full body, full interior, a/c, cruise yada yada yada.  Its loaded and I bet now it may even run high 11's and he is only running 20psi .  His car is really well dialed in and probably an exception to the rule.

Another factor is weight.   I don't remmeber what the DSM cars weigh but our quest are a heafty 3200+ lbs.  Its not all HP and Tourque, its also power to weight ratio.

[Joel]

Joel I dont know where your getting your info from. In my opinion, someone with electronics skills can build a better ECU the an OEM. You take your time and put a MS together properly and it will last easily 10 years.  No you dont need a EE degree to build one. Everyone with degrees think there so high up on their horse.

 

You should check out the post of the megasquirt yahoo message board. Try telling the hundreds of people that have upgraded to the MS and MPI on that message board that the only practical reaon for doing is for gas milage. Try telling the guy on there thats running a 1.5L VW 4cyl thats making 190LBs of TQ and over 200HP, and when he gets the MS to run his water injector and turns up the boost and changes the timing to get a leaner burn that the only practical reason for upgrading to MS is for GAS milage.

 

As far as Im concerned your the one feeding people little peices of s*** about The MS ECU.

 

 

The conquest was made to compete with the corvette. I think what chip needs is my daddy's corvette to blow his a** away and then he'll really know what TQ is

;D

 

Getting a little apprehensive? Wow.

 

"As far as Im concerned your the one feeding people little peices of s*** about The MS ECU."

 

What peice of s*** have I fed out about it? It's a simple unit, it requires a distributor to run, it uses multipoint (all four injectors at once), has no support to turn on emissions equipment. Sounds like a real gas milage winner their. Perhaps over carb? Sure.

 

You have to know something about electronics, or you will have issues.

Thats like me selling you a build-it-yourself computer, and you assemble. You'll wind up with cards backwards and you'll wonder why it doesn't work and where all these "spare parts" came from.

 

Have you built a Megasquirt for performance? Where are your track times and dynosheets? If not, why build a conquest for GAS MILAGE spending all that money on the MPI Intake?

 

Chasing me off to read the megasquirt boards seems odd. I don't want one. I do not want to be convinced by a biased audiance. I think the MS is just a very basic EFI controller in a case where you get what you pay for. I do not believe under any circumstance you could make a 400hp MS ECU powered vehicle.

 

Other than that, how would one use all this "gas savings" on a vehicle that would require emissions testing. I suppose its where you live (and I dont have to do emissions here), but a Gas milage car would always be a street car, am I right? never seen gas milage races at any tracks. None of those MS powered cars could ever get a carb-exemption. Does the megasquirt even care about O2 inputs, and how many? If the vehicle was Obd2 equipped you would need 2 O2 inputs. What about activation of the charcoal canister? it would need to control a solinoid at idle. What about EGR on these newer cars?

 

My point is this: If you want gas milage, you have a street car daily driver, which then requires a smog certificate in most states/citys. If you do a megasquirt, even here in NM the car would fail visual.... So therefore you must be looking for power... on an ECU that could barely make more than 300hp in the most modified fashion, I do not see the point in wasting all that labor of building a heap that likely will have tons of high-quality radio shack parts.

 

However, this is my OPINION. You can see it for what you like. If you don't like my opinion, don't throw turds at me. Just disagree. Name calling is for small children. Informative debates (or arguments) are good for you. Don't take it personal.

 

Joel

[92TsiTalon]

hmm...

 

so instead of the AIC would you say I should go with the eip cannon intake and a haltech?? if not the eip, ive heard of a magna. what are the prices on these and where could i get a magna.

 

if i went mpi, should i get a 20g or is an 18g more streetable. of course, the 2.6 will spool a 20g faster than my 2.0, but will i still be hitting good boost by 3k rpm?

 

so....with an mpi I could run 12's no prob?

[heefner]

There is a ton of info on this site about the magna intake.  Check out the MPI section.  Chad also makes a nice MPI intake simmillar to EIP's desing.  I would say turbo wise, a 20G or maybe a small T4 will get you close to the 12's.  Is it a garaunty, no. It will take a properly built motor and some tunning.  You can't just slap a big turbo and a MPI on and expect the rest of the car to handle it.  Once you start making good hp/tq numbers you will also need to make sure the rest of the drive train is in good shape.  

 

I think its possible to put the magna MPI with a proven engine management system (Haltech, Tech III, Hawk, SDS ect) for around $3K.  But I would also recommend a full engine rebuild, balanced, blue printed, remove balance shafts, forged pistons, non jet valve head with a good port, and 3" exhaust.

With a 3" exhaust I see 10 psi by ~2500rpm with my 20G.  With a good header or ported manifold it should spool a little quicker.  Mike is experimenting with a small T4 and I think Chad is also.  We don't really have an results yet. Lizzord is running a T3/T4 with mpi on a stock bottom end and ran a 13.8 the first time out.  With some more tweaking he will probably be close to the 12's. Once I get my turbo rebuilt and my car back together, I hope to be in the 12's also.  There is a post in the MPI section with dyno pulls.  that might give you an idea of what is needed to get where you want to go.

[jinx]

AIC only compounds fuel ditribution problems

If you really wanna see some impressive times, check out Franks car

He was alot more agressive on the drivetrain than most (and eventually adapted an auto tranny), but he did run the numbers.... I'd say even better than a DSM could on the same turbo perhaps.

That should give you some idea of 2.6 potential when given what it needs. He hacked his stock intake manifold and used sds - can't argue the results. Like you say, it's all in the tuning.

Check out the hawk system, looks great at a glance. Users here can clue you in. There are so many options

You'll find most 2.6 parts cheaper than the 2.0

There were quite a few tbi / 20g 12sec street cars. Tracey ran 11.34 with a 14g (not 14b) + nos... and there were a handful of wicked fast mpfi street monsters that used to frequent the boards... the 2.6 runs.

I look at mine like a "baby" grand national - no need for dohc, hi rpm or big hp numbers.... but line em up, and the embarrassment begins. Torque can be deceiving

[chiplee]

Everyone with degrees think there so high up on their horse.

 

I was going to ignore this generalization but I have to address it.  My degree is in English, so when I enter into a debate about things mechanical or mathematical in nature, I am very vulnerable to being shot down by people with alot more knowledge than I.  I openly admit because of my fundamental lack of training in the field, that a discussion of say "torque VS HP" should quickly be won by someone other than me.  So I break it down into a few simple truths that I can use to formulate some kind of understanding about a subject for myself, and no matter how said debate turns out, I come away more aware and feel like I've won even if I'm proven wrong.  It's the same way I manage to keep up among my peers at work when they're all engineers of one kind or another, mostly aeronautical or aerospace from schools like Embry Riddle.  So trust me, with my little BA from Shippensburg U, I don't think I'm "high up" on any horse.  The reason I thought it was important to respond is that comments like that thwart innitiative.  By accusing someone of being high on their horse (and I don't know if you meant Joel and I or just me or just Joel or what but it doesn't matter) you might make someone think twice before they go into great detail about a subject.  If they fear they'll come off as high and mighty they tend to dumb things down and we don't need that.  I don't have any problem with you personally but that comment, IMO, carries with it a pretty stong conotation.  Not to mention the fact that it makes you sound jealous and immature, and I know that's not the case.

[shift1313]

joel,  You said you cant believe how many people want megasquirt based on others opinions.  I offered megasquirt to people because its affordable and reliable from what ive found and yes im building a megasquirt powerd car.  You build it yourself.  If you dont know jack about electronics then dont build it, simple as that.  And if you do then you can build it to last as long as need be, something goes wrong then you fix it because you know exactly whats in there.  And everything on this board is opinions.  Whats the opinion on the best way to get 250rwh.  mpi, stand alone falls in there.  its very programable and you set all the ve tables yourself so yes you could lean it out and have it pass emissions then from in the car reload a different table and run how you want.  true you run it off an ignition signal but if you have a crank trigger you can run it that way too.  all 4 injectors dont have to fire at once either.  you can set everything just how you want it and if you dont know how to tune a car or arent willing to learn then you will probobly have a crappy running car.  Obviously just my opinion but the ms guys put a s*** load of time into designing this thing with no profit and i believe it is just as good if not better then any other stand alone system out there.

[Joel]

joel,  You said you cant believe how many people want megasquirt based on others opinions.  I offered megasquirt to people because its affordable and reliable from what ive found and yes im building a megasquirt powerd car.  You build it yourself.  If you dont know jack about electronics then dont build it, simple as that.

 

I have no arguement for those that HAVE the experiance... however 90% of the people that are "going to build one" have several questions:

 

Whats MPI? How do I etch a board? What do resistors do? What is a piston? Most of these guys have knowledge of neither cars nor computers and/or electronics. Just enough to browse the web and say words like "Yeah, thats what I'll do". Thats fine if they want to do that, but it sells a pile of electronic parts that will likely become a waste. I hate to see newbies buy into something they aren't sure about is all. Price comes before knowledge, if you know what I mean. Offer me a TEC-III for $3k, or a MS for $147.95 or whatever it is, and without knowing what I'm doing I'll purchase the cheap one. I'd say 70% or more will likely have wasted their money and end up buying something already put together.

 

 And if you do then you can build it to last as long as need be, something goes wrong then you fix it because you know exactly whats in there.  And everything on this board is opinions.  Whats the opinion on the best way to get 250rwh.  mpi, stand alone falls in there.  its very programable and you set all the ve tables yourself so yes you could lean it out and have it pass emissions then from in the car reload a different table and run how you want.

 

There is ALOT more than running a car lean to emissions. I catalytic converter for instance won't work lean, nor will it work rich, likewise a catalytic converter will NOT work under any circumstance unless your ECM has closed loop control, as the oscillations you observe on your A/F meter is keeping your catalytic converter at the right temperature and chemical saturation.

 

 true you run it off an ignition signal but if you have a crank trigger you can run it that way too.  all 4 injectors dont have to fire at once either.  you can set everything just how you want it and if you dont know how to tune a car or arent willing to learn then you will probobly have a crappy running car.  Obviously just my opinion but the ms guys put a s*** load of time into designing this thing with no profit and i believe it is just as good if not better then any other stand alone system out there.

 

Does the software already support a hall effect signal? If not, better be an electronic technician AND a software programmer (in assembly most likely, unless the MS guys are nice enough in their kind hearts to create some C libs to make it easier). If you run off of an ignition signal, how does it fire the injectors at the right time for any sort of batched mode. A Tachometer signal will give you no reference to when the valve will open, a crank trigger certainly will get you real close.

 

I don't doubt you MS guys spend time doing this, but I could argue till we are both blue in the face why an OEM ECM manufacturer would far exceed in benefits, unless you simply can't afford it no matter what circumstance. Biggest things are reliability. Even in units that are tested over and over, refined, and featureful from the get go can have problems, hense at least you get some kind of warrenty.

 

I'm a firm believer that you should/have to do things the hard way to get where your going if you don't have the money to do it the "fancy" way, however there are some limitations to the rule IF you can somehow save the money. One is, how much time you want to spend trying to make your ECM refined enough to pull a 12 AND get good gasmilage, AND pass emissions? Wouldn't you rather just build the car, not a computer?

 

I do not have a degree in any field. I've procrastinated that part of my life, no high horse here. One thing one can do to see all the OEM's battle out the whole "OEM vs aftermarket" ECM arguement with REAL OEM ECM engineers from GM/Ford etc, and REAL aftermarket engineers (perhaps haltech or others?) would be to do a search on diy-efi.org. I've been on their mailing list for years, and this was one arguement they had about 2 years ago. Most of these in the argument were very educated, and presented enough points against aftermarket computers to convince me my beloved haltech will likely not EVER last as long as the 15 year old OEM computer that came out of my car.

 

Joel

[shift1313]

Lets agree about what we want joel.  I definately do not like sparking debates because I dont have all the info, just what ive found.  I dont mind spending $100 on a dream but i definately wont drop $1000+. thats how i am.  I dont have emissions here so i never worried about it.  i dont even have cats on my car.  I just dont like the efforts of the ms guys put down because they spent alot of time and they offer what they have found at no price.  and yes they would help with setting it up for a crank trigger.  Ms is another options to anyone reading this.  It does not have backing like sds, or haltec, no warranty just info about what people have found that works.  if you want more info there is a website and also a yahoo group where they are more then happy to answer any questions.

[Joel]

One thing I've learned is there are somethings you should save your money on, and some that you likely shouldn't. Be our own judges here, but you don't see me (as an IT professional) building my own gigabit network interface cards and because I can't afford to buy 4 gigs of ram I'm not in line to purchase some volitile ram chips and the likes.

 

Likewise, I don't think you all should be getting all emotional about this, its a technical debate not a popularity contest. I'm not jumping on you all because I believe the MS is a complete pile of s***, just making an observation that SOME of those thinking of buying one are living a pipe dream. If you aren't a hobbist electronic technical at least, and perhaps some other skills, you will likely have a heard time with the learning curve involved. Nothing more than that.

 

If you have great luck with it, thats fine. Others may as well. But I would certainly hate to see everyone go in on that not knowing what they could be buying into. It's alot of work on just that one peice. Make sure you know that before you buy.

 

Joel

[shift1313]

agreed

[Boosted_One]

I think no one is right or wrong. Joel made very valid points but so did the others defending the MS system.

 

It boils down to your electrical knowledge on this one. Me personally, I would never even think of building a fuel ECU! This doesn''t mean the systems are shoddy, more that I have no solid electrical knowledge to do build and complete a project like that.

 

Though for instance you take a fella like Mike C who could build that system to a T and most probelms could be worked out due to the builders background and experience levels. I used Mike C as an example because he forgot more about electrical componets and whatnot than most ordinary "backyard wrenchers" would ever learn.

 

I say if you can pull it off do it! Use the downsides as motivation and make it work!

[conquestpa]

Hey guys dont take my comments about a degree personally.

 

I didn't say that to hurt anyone, or want direct it at anyone. Its just my opinion. It may be a generalization, or a prejudgement I make. I try not to be a judgemental person.

 

Maybe if you knew about my backround you may understand my perspective. I dont tell people what I do for a living that often. I dont tell people what my education is. I probably am immature about things. Maybe I am jealous of people with Degrees.

 

I'm only 23 years old, live in a college town (PSU, im around people that are older and more immature then me that are working to get there degree or have one), never have step foot in college a day in my life, and went to tech school for 2 years for electronics and was certified in by the state of Pennsylvania.

 

The comment about the vetter was a joke. When I see post getting a little hot, I like to try to lighten things up with a joke or two.

 

You can run  the injectors on a MS is an alternating ping pong mode which makes perfect sense to me. You can run emission equipment off the MS, but your right Joel, it does take a small amount of programming knowledge to adjust the VE maps, which can be done in excel.

 

Its not that hard to build a computer. I cant see anyone try to put a card in a PC backwards, but understand the point your making.

 

I dont have a megasquirt, I've never dyno'd my car and have never run it at a track. I dont understand the gas mialage stuff you keep referring to.

 

I will prove to you that there are some really awesome performing MS'd cars running close to if not over 400HP at the wheels.

 

Heres an example. this one's a throttle body injection engine, but is making around 450Lbs of TQ. I will find a MPI with MS thats making big TQ numbers too:

 

 

http://members.shaw.ca/corvette.1984/406.html

 

The MS uses the TPS, O2, coolant and air temp sensors and a MAP sensor to calculate fuel requirements. Not sure about the dual O2 sensor thing. I know that right now theres a number of people using a speacial O2 sensor out of a honda VTEC motor that can used for wide band O2, and has been intergrated into the MS software.

 

You can tune with the MS really well, and I beleive that you'll be able to tune it well enough to pass PA emissions, not that there are any in centre county anyway. Might have some trouble in CA.

 

The O2 sensor in a quest and most O2 sensors are for one thing only, and thats for telling the ECU when the exhaust is stoich.

 

The O2 sensor and closed loop mode is included in the MS code. For those who want to run open loop without a sensor, simply set the "EGO Step Size" variable on the Enrichments screen to zero - this tells the ECU to run in open loop.

 

MegaSquirt takes reference pulses from an existing ignition system (TACH signal), along with manifold air pressure, coolant and intake air temperature, and oxygen content (exhaust), and generates electronic fuel injector pulses (two drive channels). MegaSquirt also controls the fuel pump and fast-idle solenoid.

 

 

 

Heres a pretty good FAQ.

 

 

http://members.shaw.ca/megasquirt/MS%20FAQ.htm

[EvoQuest]

The conquest was made to compete with the corvette. I think what chip needs is my daddy's corvette to blow his a** away and then he'll really know what TQ is

 

 

I would like to see a corvette beat chiplees car cause it wont happen. That car is quick, trust i have riden in it. So i wouldn't be tryin to show off your daddys car so much cause it will get its a$$ handed to it.

[ESIrType?]

I would like to see a corvette beat chiplees car cause it wont happen. That car is quick, trust i have riden in it. So i wouldn't be tryin to show off your daddys car so much cause it will get its a$$ handed to it.

 

We all know chip has an ungodly fast Starion. And it will most likely walk away from a new Z06.

 

However there are some sick, sick, sick vettes out there. Like Callaways, Linginfelter TT's and some other. We get corvette forum here at me house. They had an issue on turbo'd supercharger c5/Z06's......we can't compete with that. These cars are street cars making 800-1000 hp&tqr at the wheels.

 

Now lets look at the $$ they spent...........

 

I'm sure chip has less in his car than a new Z06 would cost....that's makes the embarasment great!!!

 

Like has been said before...."There is always someone faster out there."

 

Shawn

[conquestpa]

Yeah that was just a joke. I thought it was funny. My dad does have a vette though. They weigh in at around the same weight as a quest. From the last HP/TQ numbers / estimates that chip posted I dont know.

 

Even older vettes come stock with over 300lbs of TQ, most more up towrds 400TQ. The newer vettes come with almost 500LBs of TQ, I don't think chip is even coming close to that.

 

I know the vette seems like a large car, but its really not. The hood and front end just seems so damn big, but if you line a vette up to a ford tarus, you will see that the vette is much smaller. Plus all that fibre glass makes for a great weight savings.

 

my dads vette has a KN filter and a huge SS exhaust. Chips car probably would be able to run with it, but Im not sure in a 1/4 mile....

 

A firehawk and a vette are 2 totally different beast...  ;D

[Boosted_One]

Yeah that was just a joke. I thought it was funny. My dad does have a vette though. They weigh in at around the same weight as a quest. From the last HP/TQ numbers / estimates that chip posted I dont know.

 

Even older vettes come stock with over 300lbs of TQ, most more up towrds 400TQ. The newer vettes come with almost 500LBs of TQ, I don't think chip is even coming close to that.

 

My last Motor made 445 ft/lbs at the crank.

 

Chip is right in the ballpark and running close to that 500lbs of torque.

[chiplee]

From the last HP/TQ numbers / estimates that chip posted I dont know.

 

Even older vettes come stock with over 300lbs of TQ, most more up towrds 400TQ. The newer vettes come with almost 500LBs of TQ, I don't think chip is even coming close to that.

 

I didn't post estimates bro.  I posted a graph.  If you compare crank to crank instead of wheel to crank my engine looks a little more viable.  Here's a stock graph from a 2001 Z06 http://www.corvetteforum.net/c5/zoomin/01Dyno20010816.jpg

and here's my "not tuned" graph.  Much tuning has gone on since then and another trip to the dyno should yeild good results.  Feels like it anyway. hehe http://www.geocities.com/chip_lee_iii/2002dyno2.html

I'm not sure where you got the 500ft/lb number but that would take a 150shot or a supercharger even from the mighty Z06.  Not trying to argue or anything, just thought I'd let you know.  

 

And for everyone else, thanks for the kind words.  Hey evoquest did we meet here in VA Beach?  I didn't remember that screen name.

[EvoQuest]

Hey Chiplee we did meet at that meet in Va beach was i was a rider with one of the boy in the red quest. But i just recently bought my own.