ROM reprogramming

[chrisviper]

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!

 

I am very interested in this.

 

Technosquare is in Torrence which is a suburb of LA. I may be in the LA Area in late Fall this year.

 

From your above link Starion 1988-1989 G54BT FUEL A175BTR64 $295 for reprograming the fuel maps.

 

According their website some of these guys are the MITSU ECU guru's from Japan.

 

Hell, I'm going to call them tomorrow and look into this.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

Chris - one HUGE ATTABOY :ylsuper: :thumbsup: if this is something doeable.

 

Yea, Tadashi is the man to talk to, he has been around the Japanese tuning industry forever, he's been doing it since the 1990's, if you look through old Sport Compact Car and Turbo Magazine articles you will find him all over the place. From what I've been told Techtom supplied the flashing hardware that most of the Japanese tuning companies have used in the past, not sure about recently though, there are a lot of new software tuning companies that have popped up. Just one word of caution, Tadashi is very, well, Japanese, so I would mind your manners when you talk to him, if you get what I mean.

 

[Technology]

Just have 8 injectors, one row of 450cc DSM injectors, then a second row of evo 9 550's. Run the 450's with the primary driver, and the 550's with the secondary. Then get a maf translator or a 2G maf with an SAFC2 and then get an HTA35r for the win. I want to do that. Stock ecu MPI the easy way.

[Shelby]

the ecu's use'd in the 83-89 quests is like the early 286's compair'd to a P1, when compair'd to the chips use'd in the early 90's up

 

you'd be way ahead to use an ECU from DSM turbo car , a Magna dist will work with the DSM dist sensor set up

 

but your still handicap'd by the tbi intake throddle plate ,thats the real hold up to more power

[jszucs]

Final argument to this....... "$295 for reprograming the fuel maps."

 

For that price you can buy a megasquirt and harness. If your thinking you need to reprogram your map you should have the ability and willingness to install a megasquirt.

 

almost $300 for a one time reprogram of just your fuel map or $300 for control of everything and more and ability to change your map on the fly or if anything else changes in your setup.

 

It's just not worth it. If you could buy reprogramed chips for cheep it might be but thats not the case.

[chrisviper]

Final argument to this....... "$295 for reprograming the fuel maps."

 

For that price you can buy a megasquirt and harness. If your thinking you need to reprogram your map you should have the ability and willingness to install a megasquirt.

 

almost $300 for a one time reprogram of just your fuel map or $300 for control of everything and more and ability to change your map on the fly or if anything else changes in your setup.

 

It's just not worth it. If you could buy reprogramed chips for cheep it might be but thats not the case.

 

I think you are assuming that everyone is capable of building and installing a megasquirt, which a lot of people are not, and some people just don't want to go through the hassle.

 

Another point to the Megasquirt, is that it does not have all the functionality of the stock ecu. People on this thread are drawing parallels between the Starion ecu and a 286, well maybe it's more like a 8808 ! Really, who cares, I remember having an old computer with a monochrome screen and all, and it worked just fine for the applications that were available at the time.

 

My point is, that if that chip is able to extend the range of the fueling of the stock ecu to give you some extra power potential, then it is probably worth the money to some people. In addition, you don't loose all of the stock functions that are not compatible with the megasquirt, one of those being ISC control, which to my knowledge, the megasquirt cannot control. I'm not knocking the Megasquirt, it's a great learning tool, and in certain applications it can run your engine ok, I just don't think everyone is capable of successfully assembling/installing/tuning one themselves.

[Shelby]

they had better be able to , for one thing no one can prebuild an ecu map to fit every case,, each diff in a cars set up will change the requirements of that cars fuel map , or do you just throw so much fuel at it it's always super rich and hope for the best , you need a way to tune the ECu fuel map for your car and it's mods ,,

Chris i got nothing against your trying to do this but try it with an ECU that will lead you to biger and better places not just a wish and hope,,

 

useing a 90 up dsm ecu would give you serial data ports so you can use real time data from the sensors

[jszucs]

There car is more then likly not at a level to need a reprogramed ECU then. Why would they have to build them there are tons of built ones that could be bought for cheep. There is more to a tune then just bumping up fuel.

 

I guess IMHO if your not capable of install and tune. pay someone who is or don't do it as it usualy ends in disaster.

 

What makes you believe all stock function will still be avalable if you alter the ECU? It's not going to be like some of the other ECU's as alot of those were designed to somewhat take a tune so they could meet emishons standards and for the factory to tune for MPG. Also so diffrent chips or programing could be added for diffrent trim lines. Do we even know that it is just the map on the chip?

[jszucs]

Another issue they might use a checksum on the chips and that would make it really hard.

[Elkidmino]

For that price you can...

 

 

It's just not worth it.

 

I'm not picking on you here, but statements like this are alot of the reason why we have such a narrow modification path for these vehicles. Sure, something may not be worth it to you, but John 'Dough' may think it's "worth it" and open up a new modification chapter for our vehicles.

 

It's outside of the box thinking and enginuity like this that helps the entire community.

 

 

 

 

Final arguement: If it weren't for Mike K and some others, you wouldn't have the Magna MPI.

[Maxzillian]

In addition, you don't loose all of the stock functions that are not compatible with the megasquirt, one of those being ISC control, which to my knowledge, the megasquirt cannot control.

 

I actually believe I've found a solution to the ISC. Using the control board out of a r/c car servo and the original ISC driver transistor from a stock ecu (only because I didn't feel like sourcing one) I can drive the stock ISC using a simple PWM signal with the megasquirt can provide quite easily.

 

The r/c servo board uses the MPS for position feedback and powers the ISC motor appropriately to reach a defined position based on pulse width. Best part is, anyone can buy a r/c servo for well under $50 to steal the control board from and make this work with some simple wiring. If you look real close in the picture below, you can see it hiding under the wires in the center of the case, covered in shrink wrap.

 

Edit: Felt I should mention that I do support the ROM reprogramming. It would be a great stepping stone!

 

http://maxzillian.com/starion/msecu2.jpg

Edited May 9, 2009 by Maxzillian

[Casey_L]

Max, that is great. I have been thinking about putting my MS into my ecu case and trying to get things running plug and play with the stock wiring.

[Maxzillian]

Getting one to plug into the stock wiring harness should be a cake walk. In my case I'm having the ecu control the ignition coil as well so things are considerably difficult as some of the car has to be rewired along with some additional wires added to the car. Once Ulrich heard I had figured out a potential way to control the ISC, his ears perked up and he started salivating. So it looks like I'll get me chance to build a truly plug and play ecu for him as he intends to keep the stock ignition.

[Boosted77.]

Ironic. Hmm, I've been toying with the same thing. I just gave Jehu my '86 ECU that had been "upgraded" by Jet Performance several years ago. It has a Jet Performance sticker on the chip. The case says "20 psi cut". It always still cut out at 13.5 psi though. Never could figure that one out. Guess it was just a crock by Jet P.

 

Soo, here's what I'm thinking. I had been toying around with modding up my injector wiring so I could just run my 4 450cc DSM injectors I got to run with my Magna intake that's been sitting in my garage now for a year. Low and behold a guy sells plans on how to run 4 injectors with the stock ECU. I bought the plans. They are super easy to follow. His plans are exactly what I had invisioned some time back. My only thing is if all 4 injectors fire at the same time...is that bad? Or does it not really matter?

 

Here's another thing. My friend's finishing up his 4G63 swap in his SQ. His brother is a wiz with harness make-up. He spliced the SQ and DSM harness together and is running the DSM ECU because there are so many similarities between them. Here it is; how bout running the the DSM ECU along with a Magna intake? The sensors ought to work fine, right? I guess the ECU's batch fire?

 

I really just want to try the 4 wire injector mod. I have emissions coming up next month so I guess I better wait a minute. Run that mod with a DSM translator and I think I'd be pretty happy with it. I would LOVE to get rid of that puny little TBI injector housing. Note to Mits. engineers: Don't smoke crack and design fuel systems. LOL. The new translator is pretty sharp looking and looks very user friendly too.

 

http://www.maftpro.com/tgen2info.shtml

[Lusion972]

The Jet Performance mod was a joke...it never actually worked and back then their so called ECU mods actually did more harm then good. I heard they have stepped up their game but I still wont buy anything from them.

 

I remember a friend of mine installed a jet chip and transmission chip on his Pontiac Grandam. It came with a control box that would allow you to do something, we never knew what exactly it did but when ever he had it turned on the car wouldnt start.

[speedyquest]

so what exactly is this then? i just stumbled upon it ...

 

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/performanc.../Fuel_Computers

 

any ideas?

 

allen

[Starfighterpilot]

I am just going to throw this out for comment, and to see what the moderators think.

 

Perhaps there should be a separate forum to address the possibility of reprograming, or perhaps physically modifying newer DSM or the Starquest's ECU's to use in our Starquests. Or what is available, or vendors out in the aftermarket that could potentially help us.

 

I do not think that this subject deserves to be buried in the BS Forum. If this subject had it's own forum, would be a unique place to share information about the subject that you would not have to search to hell and back, looking for scattered posts, and MAYBE find them all.

 

Megasquirt is not just plug and play, and besides that you loose the functionality of the ISC, altho Maxzillian has now come up with a "fix" for that. :thumbsup: Personally, I know some Starquesters here in Georgia who went to Megasquirt. These guys know their crap about Starquests. Everyone of them has at one time or another pulled their hair out trying to correctly install tune it initially. And Megasquirt is even located here in the Atlanta, Georgia area.

 

How many members does Starquestclub.com have now? Over 15K? Someone or a number of these Starquesters working in conjunction with each other, out of all of these members, may have the knowledge to actually pull this off.

 

Cracking the code in the ECU's and perhaps integrating a flashable EPROM or EEPROM with new maps, from a program that a Starquester has written, once it's successfully done, is a hell of a lot easier than installing Megasquirt. As Fanta pointed out, I have found other MOPAR sites which have cracked the codes on MITSU built MOPAR ECU's earlier than the '88's and '89 Starquest ECU's and are even finding errors in the codes/maps as they were originally written by MITSU.

 

Remember, MITSU did not write the fuel maps to get the FULL potential out of the Starquests. They did a trade off between performance and meeting EPA SMOG requirements. Look at the performance the Brits were getting out of RELATIVELY STOCK Starions in the early to late '80's with Mitsu's 2.2 liter engine. Back in those days they did not have the same smog requirements as say California.

 

I do not have a great working knowledge of modern fuel injection systems. The only FI Systems I ever worked on were the Duntov and Hillburn FI systems and they are vastly different from todays FI systems. ECU's and FI came of age after I was out of drag racing.

 

People have said, on here, that the only thing that is changeable are the fuel maps and it's not worth the effort. But my experience from back in the '60's & '70's is that in many instances we could pick up 20 to 40 HP on an engine dyno, just by changing the factory carburator OEM factory jets or metering rods to a performance set, and doing nothing else.

 

The TBI is nothing more than a glorified carburator. My thought is, I may be wrong, that we may be able to pick up the same type of HP gains is we had then, with a set of fuel maps tailored to getting the most out of the OEM Starquest, similiar to just replacing the jets and metering rods. If you have to get the car smogged, - just swap in the OEM ECU - 15 minute job.

 

Yeah, us Starquesters are stuck with a SOHC head; TBI; and an intake manifold that leaves a awful lot to be desired. But wouldn't it behoove the Starquest community to get the maximum you can get out of a OEM stock Starquest with just modifying the OEM ECU?

 

How many of you computer programing/IT/computer engineer guys, with a damn good knowledge of Starquests, have lost or are in danger of loosing your jobs? Cracking the map codes and designing programing and hardware for the ECU would be a great project. You could probably start your own business selling them to fellow Starquesters after the bugs were worked out.

 

I know I would buy one.

 

Other early to mid '80's MOPAR guys are doing it and with the cost of computer boards & components today, do not say it can not be economically done. BECAUSE YOU ARE DEFEATED BEFORE YOU TRY.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

Edited May 10, 2009 by Starfighterpilot

[Shelby]

i'd deff sec that sugestion ,maybe placeing it in the performance forum , less posting in there and more likely to stay findable , once complete'd it could be clean'd up and given a place of it's own

i'd love to see more testing and fabing of the DSM dist in our head,, there are tons of turbo DSM ecus and harness's in junk yards and ready made add'ons to achive fuel maps changeing and tuneing each with a ready made timeing map for turbo'd engines

timeing curves are realy very simalur from engine to engine

[Starfighterpilot]

While skulking around my library of Starquest books, I came across an interesting tidbit of information in my, "Starion & Conquest, Performance Portfoilio, 1982 - 1990," published by Brooklands Books, LTD.

 

On page 127, Road Test Data, Engine, it states that the Starquest EFI System was made by Mikuni Electronics.

 

I guess they were MITSU's subcontractor for the EFI.

 

I was always under the impression that MITSU designed and fabricated the EFI System.

 

Just something that I thought that I would throw out here.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

[StarquestRescue]

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!

 

I am very interested in this.

 

Technosquare is in Torrence which is a suburb of LA. I may be in the LA Area in late Fall this year.

 

From your above link Starion 1988-1989 G54BT FUEL A175BTR64 $295 for reprograming the fuel maps.

 

According their website some of these guys are the MITSU ECU guru's from Japan.

 

Hell, I'm going to call them tomorrow and look into this.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

Chris - one HUGE ATTABOY :ylsuper: :thumbsup: if this is something doeable and it meets the needs of the Starquest community.

Ken, i am curious what they say this chip can do. My comunication skills are poor, it would be better if some one like you called.

 

From my experience the 88 ecu can can handle the stock injectors at max flow, but does seem to struggle with the boost curve of the bigger bolt on turbos. An optimum upgrade would need to work with bigger injectors and probably a different mas sensor.

[Dcrasta]

While I agree knowledge is always great to obtain, some of the limitations of the Factory ECU can be effectively overcome in other ways. For example, you can increase the overall effective map by raising base fuel pressure. This was something people used to do with cars like this (GM TBI for example). But, at some point, the design limitations of the Wet Manifold start to become more obvious. You can install larger injectors, modify the map, etc and still end up with the same uneven fuel distribution problems.

 

While it may be attractive in the short run to do an 'easy' modification, for the cost that's involved its a much better payoff to go with a true programmable fuel controller (like a Megasquirt).

 

The real reason this is successful for DSM and HOnda guys is they are MPI . The real problem is the TBI system. That is what needs to go. If you start adding fuel to the TBI you only make the uneven fuel distribution problem worse, leading to excessive and uneven heat and pressure, leading to blown head gaskets, warping heads, burned valves, detonated pistons, etc..etc..etc..

 

But, developing, decoding, analyzing, and even improving the stock Ecu maps are a good idea, if someone is realistic about the expected performance gains.

 

You cant polish a turd.

[jszucs]

How many of you computer programing/IT/computer engineer guys, with a damn good knowledge of Starquests, have lost or are in danger of loosing your jobs? Cracking the map codes and designing programing and hardware for the ECU would be a great project. You could probably start your own business selling them to fellow Starquesters after the bugs were worked out.

 

I know I would buy one.

 

Other early to mid '80's MOPAR guys are doing it and with the cost of computer boards & components today, do not say it can not be economically done. BECAUSE YOU ARE DEFEATED BEFORE YOU TRY.

 

For What It's Worth.

 

KEN

 

So why not just make a megasquirt and wire it to a stock ECU plug from a dead ECU? It could be given a conservative "Stock" tuen and then the user could make changes as they see fit. It would make it more plug and play other then triping the fuel pump.

 

[jszucs]

I'm not picking on you here, but statements like this are alot of the reason why we have such a narrow modification path for these vehicles. Sure, something may not be worth it to you, but John 'Dough' may think it's "worth it" and open up a new modification chapter for our vehicles.

 

It's outside of the box thinking and enginuity like this that helps the entire community.

 

 

Final arguement: If it weren't for Mike K and some others, you wouldn't have the Magna MPI.

 

I'm not downing them for trying but if the stock ECU has taken people to 300HP what more do you need? If your looking for over that your ditching your stock ECU, ditching your T/B and going MPI. At that point do it right. You not only need to tune but you also need to monitor. Due to it's age the stock ECU will not have the storage capactiy to store the date needed for that. I highly doubt it has a fast enough processor to allow you to even take samples at a rate you need. Nor does it have the ability to store a map table large enough to efectavly be tuned.

 

As for the Magna the Magna filled a need for something we didn't have MPI. Reprograming a stock ECU dosn't fill a need for something we don't have.. We have the ability to support 300 HP with upping fule presure larger injectors pigeyback whatever your rout, If your going with more you "Should" do it right if you want it to last. Going for over 300 is going to require a good deal of tweeking and more then once ( IE reprogram and forget it) not to mention the monitoring to keep it running.

[jszucs]

Getting one to plug into the stock wiring harness should be a cake walk. In my case I'm having the ecu control the ignition coil as well so things are considerably difficult as some of the car has to be rewired along with some additional wires added to the car. Once Ulrich heard I had figured out a potential way to control the ISC, his ears perked up and he started salivating. So it looks like I'll get me chance to build a truly plug and play ecu for him as he intends to keep the stock ignition.

 

 

O yeah now I read this. well this is what I was basicly sugesting in the post above

[Zack_Morris]

Personally, I feel this is a great idea.

 

People keep bringing up the drawbacks of the wet manifold, 300hp proven MS systems, etc. Not everyone wants 300hp or to build and build and build.

 

Some people just like a more responsive, more efficient mapping, which DOES make the car more fun to drive. Let's be realistic here, we are all different in how we want our cars to perform. We are all different in how we want our cars to look.

 

 

For those who don't want to build the engine, for those who just want a light tune to make the most out 93 octane on a STOCK engine/turbo/etc and just want a set of hardpipes, then this is a great idea.

 

For those who want more power, bigger turbos, cams, forged bottom ends, 3" exhaust, etc etc etc, then MPI is the way to go. But for the guy/girl who just wants their 20+ year old mitsu to be a more fun DD, then a chipped EPROM is the way to go.

[jszucs]

Im confused 300 HP has been proven possible with the stock ECU. If your staying under that point the stock ECU is fine for you, if your going over that point it might not be. If you want just a little more fun from a DD your efforts (time money) would be better spent in a better flowing larger exaust and a hacked mass.

 

I think everyone is trying to make this something it's not. Remaping your ECU is not going to provide any real gains unless your doing the other stuff so it can use the increase. There is more to just throwing fuel at it to make it more responsive. Hardpipes make it more responsive unless you go to large.

 

I think the reason this hasn't been done is the people that realy want all out performace ditch the ECU so they can monitor what's going on. Those that just want a little more really have no need for it as it has been proven to be OK to 300 HP.