Fastest, cheapest, easiest way to increase performance?

[MmSadda]

I know you guys probably get this question from new member all of the time, but I've had trouble finding such a thread in the FAQ, so I'll take the bait and ask the n00bish question.

 

What is the least expensive, fastest, and least difficult way to increase the performance of a Starion (specifically talking an 86 ESi-R widebody)?

Obviously AC and interior removal will help decrease weight and is a free modification. Is a good wheel/tire package usually high on a priority list? or swapping in a larger turbo? or a catback exhaust?

 

While I'm at it, how does the Starion ECU take to modifications? is running an aftermarket computer necessary with very little modification, or does the stock ECU adapt to light to moderate changes?

 

*edit* by the way, I want to avoid pissing off regular forum members and mods/admins as best as my new self possibly can; Is this the appropriate section for this, or do you have a different section for such questions?

Edited March 25, 2008 by MmSadda

[Hoosierquest]

your exhaust would be a good start. downpipe and all. Read the FAQ's pleanty of info there.

[Fanta]

I know you guys probably get this question from new member all of the time, but I've had trouble finding such a thread in the FAQ, so I'll take the bait and ask the n00bish question.

 

What is the least expensive, fastest, and least difficult way to increase the performance of a Starion (specifically talking an 86 ESi-R widebody)?

Obviously AC and interior removal will help decrease weight and is a free modification. Is a good wheel/tire package usually high on a priority list? or swapping in a larger turbo? or a catback exhaust?

 

While I'm at it, how does the Starion ECU take to modifications? is running an aftermarket computer necessary with very little modification, or does the stock ECU adapt to light to moderate changes?

 

*edit* by the way, I want to avoid pissing off regular forum members and mods/admins as best as my new self possibly can; Is this the appropriate section for this, or do you have a different section for such questions?

 

 

Downpipe w/ 2.5"-3" exhaust, and then a bigger turbo ( a S16G is a great turbo for these cars ) Don't really bother with the interior removal. If you remove the AC, just remove the compressor and keep it hanging around ( I wish I never removed all of my AC systems. Summer kills me lol )

 

Starion ECU can't be modified. The ECU actually adapts pretty well to modifications. Of course if you start modifying it decently you would want to probably get a GM Mass Air Sensor and the DSM MAFT along with a wideband o2 sensor and gauge to tune it ( DIY method )

 

And this thread would have done just fine in Just Plain Ole BS. Virtual Mechanic would have worked as well. Members nor mods would get pissed off at you, they might say it might be better placed here or there, and a mod might move it, but nobody gets mad about that sort of stuff here

[MmSadda]

your exhaust would be a good start. downpipe and all. Read the FAQ's pleanty of info there.

Cool. I just found the FAQ, so I'll start taking in what I can from there. I'm new to turbocharged cars, and don't even know for sure if I'm getting a Starion yet, but want to find out as much as I can in as short a time as possible. For now, I'm trying to compare and contrast potential performance with the potential performance of my RX7, and looking into trying to trade.

 

 

Downpipe w/ 2.5"-3" exhaust, and then a bigger turbo ( a S16G is a great turbo for these cars ) Don't really bother with the interior removal. If you remove the AC, just remove the compressor and keep it hanging around ( I wish I never removed all of my AC systems. Summer kills me lol )

 

Starion ECU can't be modified. The ECU actually adapts pretty well to modifications. Of course if you start modifying it decently you would want to probably get a GM Mass Air Sensor and the DSM MAFT along with a wideband o2 sensor and gauge to tune it ( DIY method )

 

And this thread would have done just fine in Just Plain Ole BS. Virtual Mechanic would have worked as well. Members nor mods would get pissed off at you, they might say it might be better placed here or there, and a mod might move it, but nobody gets mad about that sort of stuff here

I'm used to a 2-seater car, and figure I can probably get the weight down by a few percent by removing just the rear seats, and maybe shave an extra couple percent of the weight by doing an AC removal.

 

As for the ECU, how much HP might one see before needing to change to a standalone?

 

Also, glad to here you guys are not quite as vicious as us RX7 people here, and thanks for all the help Fanta. seems like you're talking me through about every question I ask on here :thumbsup:

[Fanta]

eh, you might remove like 5-10 lbs with the backseat... you can hold the bottom seat part in one hand. Like someone said in your intro thread, these cars have a lot of torque. Its completely your call in the end, but removing the rear seat won't make much difference. The AC compressor weighs a good bit, but it can be a beast in removing ( especially if you go ahead with removing the condenser and all the associated lines )

 

ECU - you can see about 240-250hp with tuning, I believe there has been more, but I'm going off whats the most general ( these are MAFT tuned ) - I'm not sure if you can really call a "limit" to the ECU, but just because of adding extra injectors for the extra fuel and sensors and such with the MPI, the ECU isn't designed for that, hence the standalones ( I'm curious that if the ECU could read all those sensors and such what its actual limitation would be now that I'm thinking about it )

 

I only talk through every question cause I have nothing else to do at the moment don't be surprised at finding myself being corrected by other more experienced members

Edited March 25, 2008 by Fanta

[jolyrgr]

Don't take this the wrong way....

If you want to "succeed" with these cars, you need to dump that type of mindset. quickest, easiest and cheapest are words that translate to multiple repairs, and cars parted out due to frustration. Everything short of removing interior, removing unwanted safety features (ABS), or drilling holes in the car(that was for you sam ) is going to cost, especially if you do it properly.

 

Now.....I realize where you were going, and there used to be a free-mods topic either here or on the old t-racing site. Aside from that, you need to set a goal and research the past failures/successes of the members here in reguards to the parts needed for your requirements. There is a welth of information here, but the repititous theme is...SPEND THE MONEY, SPEND THE TIME, DO THE RESEARCH, AND DO IT RIGHT.

 

As a side note...I agree with Fanta on the 02. Do not make major mods to the car before geting an air/fuel gauge in one form or another.

Edited March 25, 2008 by jolyrgr

[chiplee]

funny you should ask that. We were just discussing in another thread how quick and "cheap" methods of increasing performance have a tendency to cost more in the long run. For some reason this seems like a lesson most people refuse to learn from the mistakes of others. We all seem to want to see for ourselves, so feel free, teach yourself how much it costs to make "cheap" performance gains over time. I promise you though, if your goals are anything beyond 30 or 40HP over stock, you'll spend more doing it "cheaply" than you will doing it right.

[MmSadda]

To clarify, when I say "cheap", I mean "relatively inexpensive in the long run." Being an rx7 guy, I know the dangers of not doing things the right way. But even so, some modifications are inherently better at providing power-per-dollar than others.

 

Let me give an example, though. If I can gain 30hp to the wheels by changing the turbo to another turbo that I can buy (in good condition) for $500, or I can gain the same 20hp by boring and stroking the engine for $2500, I'd rather upgrade the turbo.

[emagdnim]

The FIRST THING you need to do is buy a wideband and a way to tune the car.

 

That way, you can tune every mod after that accordingly.

[chiplee]

To clarify, when I say "cheap", I mean "relatively inexpensive in the long run." Being an rx7 guy, I know the dangers of not doing things the right way. But even so, some modifications are inherently better at providing power-per-dollar than others.

 

Let me give an example, though. If I can gain 30hp to the wheels by changing the turbo to another turbo that I can buy (in good condition) for $500, or I can gain the same 20hp by boring and stroking the engine for $2500, I'd rather upgrade the turbo.

 

 

well then assuming you'll handle the fuel delivery side of things, to me, the best bang for the buck was the header I bought from Chad Samuel. That could be because my setup desperately needed it though. It's really hard to say. NOS :confused0024:

[JustPaus_88TSi]

30hp won't be very hard to gain..

 

A stock 86(in very good condition mechanically/electrically) should put down 155hp/205-210tq at the wheels using the 88-89's boost level of 10.5psi..

 

A 3" turbo back exhaust, 3" AHP(accordian hard pipe-turbo to mas), K&N filter and boost raised to 15psi has dyno'd 216hp/278tq at the wheels and ran a 13.7@101. We're talking about maybe $400 in mods, for a 60rwhp/70rwtq gain. There was zero tuning involved, so the addition of a Maf-t like Fanta mentioned could squeeze out some more.. A SAFC, Greddy Emanage Ultimate, or AEM FI/C could also be piggybacked for some nice gains with room to upgrade a bit if you don't plan on going MPI.

 

Starcon88 dyno'd 260rwhp/360rwtq with a stock fuel system, a small 16g@20psi and some other mods I don't remember specifics on.. He ran a 12.9@106 with the setup.. He broke down his total costs for his car in an old thread.

 

ChrisViper dyno'd 334rwhp/380+rwtq on the TBI, with the addition of a greddy emanage ultimate controlling an extra secondary injector plumbed into the OVCP..

 

 

For safety, MPI is where it's at as it gets you away from the poorly designed intake manifold(it leaves cylinders 2 and 3 leaner than 1 and 4).

 

 

It'd be best to list what you envision for the car.. Power goals, intended usage etc... Depending on the power goals, you may have to think about another transmission.

[FijiPhil]

Yeah, if you shop around you can mod these pretty cheaply. On my old car i had a S16g turbo set at 14-15 psi, all hardpipes, 3 inch exhaust, and an 89 ecu. I never dynoed or ran it at the track with that set up, but i could break my rear tires (245s on 9 inch rims) loose at 30 mph. Total investment including the price of the car was no more than 4000 or so. :ylsuper:

[Dcrasta]

Mods I would recommend.. [This assumes your Throttlebody has been re-built, no leaks (fuel, vacuum, oil etc), recently tuned (timing, fuel filters done, fresh timing chain), cooling system performing well.

 

1: 3 Inch Exhaust (Turbo Back). True 3 inch DP, (with flex), true mandrel bent 3 inch (2.5 if you dont have the dough)..

 

2: 1st Generation DSM (Eclipse turbo) Mass Airflow Sensor. (Search for the mod or read tracing.com's free mods section).

 

3: Valve spring upgrade (Schnieder springs with higher seat pressure..) This is tricky to do with the head on the car but it can be done. I use the rope method (threading rope into the combustion chamber to hold the valves up )

 

4: Upgraded fuel pump . This will be needed for future upgrades.

 

After that you will need to upgrade ECU (either a megasquirt clone or MAS Translator..), WB o2 sensor, .

[BOHO]

No one has told you that the 86 ecu has a built in fuel cut at 10psi.....Even with a FCD.....the injectors can't keep up over like 11 psi....You'll lean out. I just went standalone on my 86.....Could not get over 10 psi....A bigger turbo isn't going to do anygood unless you can get more fuel....So I guess if you want to hook up a safc or something to give it a whirl have at it.......The 87-89's have a much better injection system.The 87 computer also has a fuel cut but...the injectors and isc are the same...You might want to look into swapping to that also...its in the FAQ's...86-88 conversion.

[Fanta]

No one has told you that the 86 ecu has a built in fuel cut at 10psi.....Even with a FCD.....the injectors can't keep up over like 11 psi....You'll lean out. I just went standalone on my 86.....Could not get over 10 psi....A bigger turbo isn't going to do anygood unless you can get more fuel....So I guess if you want to hook up a safc or something to give it a whirl have at it.......The 87-89's have a much better injection system.The 87 computer also has a fuel cut but...the injectors and isc are the same...You might want to look into swapping to that also...its in the FAQ's...86-88 conversion.

 

thats sorta hit or miss - you had an odd one. Boosted77 has an 86 and he has a 20G that was at 18psi ( and would detonate lol ) using a FCD

 

Boho is right - you utimately would want an 87+ - 88/89 were the best of the best

[Shelby]

the first thing to do is get the car runing @100%

next is the pre cat,, i'd dare say it's most likely trash'd ,gut it, and make sure the second cat is in working order if you have eminsions testing,,

the stock exh system is too small for the engine,, any gains you hope to make in the future will depend on you up sizeing the entire exh system 2.5 " will do you very well up to almost 300 hp

you do not want a bend pipe system use mandrel bends to fab one up most muffler shops can do this but stay with a mom and pop sort of shop the big chains will nail you to the cross

 

100% stock these cars run very well you'l be impress'd but due to the cars age you need to do things like service the fuel system pick up and filters , this is a must ,and it's all easy work nothing hard or expensive

 

if you are a i need pics sort of guy try this site and the SOS manuals

 

http://starquest.i-x.net/

Edited March 27, 2008 by Shelby

[Boosted77.]

The stock fuel system lets me down at anything over 15 psi. Mods include 2 1/2" exhaust, TD-06-5h 20g, 274 cam, Walbro fuel pump, Caravan intake mani, 2 1/2" hard pipes all the way to the TB, chipped ECU, Fidanza FW, brand new engine. It runs great around town, and flows great...to much really for the stock MAS and fuel system, but if I want to get crazy on the street, I have to dial the boost to no more than 15, and I'm in there.

 

If I run my 12a which is also new and sits around the garage as a back-up, I can run it over 18 psi all day, no prob. But it's way slower!

 

1. Exhaust

2. 1g-MAS

3. Wide-band or atleast a A/F meter

4. Boost controller

5. Walbro fuel pump

6. F/P regulator

7. bigger turbo

8. Disregard 1-7 until car runs perfect

[macrophage]

eh, you might remove like 5-10 lbs with the backseat... you can hold the bottom seat part in one hand. Like someone said in your intro thread, these cars have a lot of torque. Its completely your call in the end, but removing the rear seat won't make much difference. The AC compressor weighs a good bit, but it can be a beast in removing ( especially if you go ahead with removing the condenser and all the associated lines )

 

ECU - you can see about 240-250hp with tuning, I believe there has been more, but I'm going off whats the most general ( these are MAFT tuned ) - I'm not sure if you can really call a "limit" to the ECU, but just because of adding extra injectors for the extra fuel and sensors and such with the MPI, the ECU isn't designed for that, hence the standalones ( I'm curious that if the ECU could read all those sensors and such what its actual limitation would be now that I'm thinking about it )

 

I only talk through every question cause I have nothing else to do at the moment don't be surprised at finding myself being corrected by other more experienced members

 

Its a possiblity that the sensors are "piggybacked" or "paralled" in the circiut. A simple add on wont hurt. The computer wont notice it unless its a big current draw.

[patra_is_here]

No one has told you that the 86 ecu has a built in fuel cut at 10psi.....Even with a FCD.....the injectors can't keep up over like 11 psi....You'll lean out. I just went standalone on my 86.....Could not get over 10 psi....A bigger turbo isn't going to do anygood unless you can get more fuel....So I guess if you want to hook up a safc or something to give it a whirl have at it.......The 87-89's have a much better injection system.The 87 computer also has a fuel cut but...the injectors and isc are the same...You might want to look into swapping to that also...its in the FAQ's...86-88 conversion.

 

 

this is wrong. I run my 86 to 14psi all day on pump gas and don't run lean, and that's with stock injectors. I came up with a proper FCD. its in the FAQ