Serious bible question

[lmwii]

two big points:

science makes a distinction between saying that there is no evidence of something and saying that it isn't there. there is a difference, and it is important to understand that. we cannot prove there is no god, or magic, or alien visitors to earth, but we can say that there is no credible evidence of any of that. that leads into the second point.

 

scientists and rational thinkers 'believe' in what the evidence tells them, whatever that may be. faith-based folks believe in what their hearts/god/book tell them, in spite of evidence to the contrary. john, you spend 2 long posts talking about what might be, and what isn't fully explained, and holes in our knowledge and understanding, and then try to make that into proof of something, or at least make dots connect. however, not knowing carries no significance except itself; not knowing doesn't imply that any crackpot story that you can make fit into that hole is true.

[john82wa]

I wouldn't consider my posts incredibly long or trying to fit somthing into a hole. If anything I am encouraging science and the exploration of the bible as a whole. Further, it is very clear that my thoughts our entirely my opinions and not trying to throw or force what you call 'crackpot' stories down anyone persons throat. I merely mentioned that people driven by science should take the bible into account - lets not forget history - not last year or all the way back to 1500 B.C. and im sorry, but the bible contains a whole lot of history. In speaking of evidence that speaks contrary to the bible, I don't believe you have brought forth 'evidence' to contradict the bible - theories yes, but that seems to be the extent. And around we go - it is an endless circle at this time that will be continually argued.

 

I encourage science and I thought that was pretty clear from my previous post.

[BOHO]

Chip, God can and will stop Satan. It is even prophesied how God will do that.

One third of the bible is about prophecies, all fulfilled prophecies have been 100% right.

I can't think of any other religion that can back up their word with prophecies.

 

 

As for the thinking people:

Isaiah 55:8-9

⁸ For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.

⁹ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,

so are my ways higher than your ways

and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

 

WEEEEE!!!!!!

 

What religion are you inferring to? You really can only think of one religion that has coincidental "prophecies" that correlate with their book of worship....You should be a comedian....

[john82wa]

Educate me Boho, seriously though - what religions have had prophecies that have been true? And which ones of the bible do you find coincidental?

 

....I thought I was done

Edited April 1, 2012 by john82wa

[lmwii]

the bible is not truth until proven false, so i don't have to post evidence to contradict the bible, that is the whole point. if you want me to believe the bible, you need to prove that bush can burn without being consumed, or that someone can rise from the dead, or fill in the blank. evidence is what i believe, not stories. i don't believe anything without evidence. you will believe anything, and (it seems like?) will only consider that you might be wrong if evidence contradicts that.

[Tim_C.]

John82wa: Yeah, it's cool that the pillar marking the crossing spot of the Red Sea still exists and can be seen on google Maps. Many artifacts have been found there, with much more still there. The route to the real Mt. Sinai is exactly as the Bible said it was. Ending at the well documented place of the actual mountain in Saudi Arabia. Except it has been blocked out by google maps. Again, the powers in charge of the world, controlling yet another thing that knowledge thereof would impact their wallet.

 

I really love to see things in sctripture proven right, with nothing ever being proven wrong. The problem with mainstream science is that it cares nothing about evidence, and in fact supresses evidence to sway the market. It is a pawn to fleece the people with and has no regard for truth or 'evidence'. Of course, that means it isn't science at all. The only true science is supported biblicly. There is no other science without desecrating the word.

 

The thing about God is that His knowledge can't fit into our heads. What any person can do for themselves is prove God in their own life which cannot be accomplished without faith and belief in Him. Then one starts to understand bits and pieces of why God did/does things. It isn't about punishment at all. It is about the greater good. That greater good starts with the individual, thus the 10 commandments. If you lie, you are putting yourself and those around you in danger because the person lied to might just want to hurt you. Same with stealing, coveting, etc... Sexual thoughts are bad because they hurt YOUR health. Just looking at porn causes your heart to beat differently and unhealthily. In fact, it takes less than porn. Just the thought causes those things. God is just trying to save you and those around you by letting you know these things are wrong and bad for you. A good world starts with good people in each country. A good country is only accomplished by good people. Good state, county, city, community, neighborhood, and family. It all comes down to all of as individuals doing our part to obey God and live happy, content lives in peace with everyone. Those that don't, will cause unhealthy problems starting with themselves.

 

As for profitting in organized religion: It takes work to organize the help that people need. Help that litterly saves their soul, and life here on earth. I wouldn't expect people in the ministry to not get paid for it. Most pastors and church leaders are on call 24/7. They go to prisons, jails, hospitals, assisted living places, building churches, supplying food and clothing, etc... If their ministry allows them to get paid a certain amount, I don't expect them to not take it. Their blessing encourages me to try hard and strive forward in my life too.

[chiplee]

 

 

WEEEEE!!!!!!

 

What religion are you inferring to? You really can only think of one religion that has coincidental "prophecies" that correlate with their book of worship....You should be a comedian....

 

 

BOHO, and this goes for anyone that has struggled to remain patient in this thread (patra), what helped me throttle back a few years ago was learning that the ability to reason honestly very well may lie at the genetic level. Some of us may just have it, while others simply do not. What looks like a choice to ignore reality, very well may be a genetic predisposition to start from the a priori assumption that God is real, and consider all other information relative to that fact. Factor in the well understood reality that we all learn and internalize information at different rates, and it begins to feel at least slightly less frustrating when people seem like they are consciously ignoring the painstaking level of effort you're putting into helping them understand. It's still full blown cognitive dissonance at some level. It has to be. Because deep down they know the first step to knowledge is honesty, specifically honesty with oneself. So being here and being willing to discuss is really all anyone could hope to get out of believers at this stage. Also keep in mind that even their heavy hitting teachers tell them they can't question their belief. C.S. Lewis said if you doubt Christianity that's fine, don't believe it. But once you accept Christ, that's it, you're in for good. The very act of questioning their beliefs proves they don't believe it. Now, they can happily question other religions, or ignore them altogether, because the fact that they believe theirs makes it obvious that the other ones are false. See? It's so simple.

Edited April 1, 2012 by chiplee

[john82wa]

So splitting the Red Sea is myth to you? The chariot wheels at the bottom don't mean anything? Thats like viewing the Titanic on the ocean floor and saying it never went accross the ocean and sunk at its resting spot. Perhaps you do need more evidence and I dont fault you for that one bit. I suppose my experiences have gave me the reason for my faith - my own evidence in its own right and that is a far cry from being gullible.

 

Tim_C: I was referring to the profitting in the sake of ones gain, not the desire to truly bless others and preach the word. My pastor is essentially on call 24/7 and his life is pulled in so many directions and his pay is incredibly measly compared to the average salary. He drives on old Chevy Luv for crying out loud as his main vehicle!!

 

Chip: I wouldn't call everyones religion false - just confused On a serious note, thats why people need to get 'religion' out of there vocabulary. God has many names and yes, I understand what your trying to say and to a degree I can't argue it. Just like the Essenes who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls - they wrote about Jesus Christ and the miracles he did, the Temple of Jerusalem but in the same manuscripts it differs slightly in what the 'church' is. It's quite interesting but this group of people had slight differerences in regards to Jesus's teaching about the 'church' and its function. It could almost be argued an entire 'religion' be pulled out of this, but fortunately it was not. But I believe most have construed the bible and the teachings of there religions are not backed by the manuscripts that we have today.

Edited April 1, 2012 by john82wa

[Shelby]

the sea moveing out and leaveing dry land has happen'd many times , take a look at the tusumi vedio's from the past few years ,

it's entirely posible that an earth quake happen'd to cause the sea to part and allow them to cross and then rush back on the romans

sorry i know i misspell'd that but too lazy to go spell check

[chiplee]

So splitting the Red Sea is myth to you? The chariot wheels at the bottom don't mean anything? Thats like viewing the Titanic on the ocean floor and saying it never went accross the ocean and sunk at its resting spot. Perhaps you do need more evidence and I dont fault you for that one bit. I suppose my experiences have gave me the reason for my faith - my own evidence in its own right and that is a far cry from being gullible.

 

 

But people use their experiences to justify faith in all sorts of Gods. Experiences, no matter how profound, can only ever give you reasons for believing that there is "something" supernatural out there. Imwii gave a brilliant explanation of the problem with the existence of an omnipotent being. The very definition of omnipotence dictates that an omnipotent being could just be playing tricks on you.

[lmwii]

So splitting the Red Sea is myth to you? The chariot wheels at the bottom don't mean anything? Thats like viewing the Titanic on the ocean floor and saying it never went accross the ocean and sunk at its resting spot. Perhaps you do need more evidence and I dont fault you for that one bit. I suppose my experiences have gave me the reason for my faith - my own evidence in its own right and that is a far cry from being gullible.

 

ships sink all the time. i've seen ships sinking on video. the mechanism of ships sinking is consistent with my own observations and physics. i can sink a scale model of a ship.

 

this is in stark contrast to the example of a sea parting as described in the bible. this has never been filmed. it is inconsistent with my own observations and current scientific understanding and physics. i cannot duplicate it in scale.

 

there is no way to connect chariots at the bottom of the red sea with the story from the bible with any sort of certainty. the titanic is at the bottom of the ocean, but of all the stories you could make up about how it got there, only one is true. there are a million ways a chariot could end up at the bottom of the red sea, but that doesn't mean that whatever reason you want to assign to it is true.

[ucw458]

 

 

But people use their experiences to justify faith in all sorts of Gods. Experiences, no matter how profound, can only ever give you reasons for believing that there is "something" supernatural out there. Imwii gave a brilliant explanation of the problem with the existence of an omnipotent being. The very definition of omnipotence dictates that an omnipotent being could just be playing tricks on you.

 

 

GOD

http://www.thedailyrash.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/jesus.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

or Q

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/105351/1974390-star_trek_q_fan_collective_20060707054448913_640w.jpg

 

 

 

 

You decide

[john82wa]

lol, dang you guys are quick - I edited my post from up top ^^^^

 

But you guys can't deny - its pretty compelling (Red Sea). Like I said, I wish they would just tear that site apart and discover more information.

Edited April 1, 2012 by john82wa

[lmwii]

it's not compelling at all. chariots at the bottom of the red sea don't equal god parting the waters. you do not understand the nature of evidence.

 

look at it this way - in the absence of the bible from your experience, would finding chariots at the bottom of the red sea lead you to the conclusion that an omnipotent god had parted the waters so that his people could pass then let the waters swallow their pursuers who were using chariots? if you answer honestly, you have to say no - no one would come to that conclusion unless they had heard the bible story first.

 

in contrast, finding and examining the the titanic at the bottom of the north atlantic could easily lead you to the conclusion that a ship had been sailing along, hit an iceberg, and sunk - regardless of whether you had ever heard of the incident or not. the fact that you think the two situations require the same size of logical leaps is indicative of the different way you approach reality.

[Tim_C.]

[/font][/color]

 

ships sink all the time. i've seen ships sinking on video. the mechanism of ships sinking is consistent with my own observations and physics. i can sink a scale model of a ship.

 

this is in stark contrast to the example of a sea parting as described in the bible. this has never been filmed. it is inconsistent with my own observations and current scientific understanding and physics. i cannot duplicate it in scale.

 

there is no way to connect chariots at the bottom of the red sea with the story from the bible with any sort of certainty. the titanic is at the bottom of the ocean, but of all the stories you could make up about how it got there, only one is true. there are a million ways a chariot could end up at the bottom of the red sea, but that doesn't mean that whatever reason you want to assign to it is true.

 

Haven't you seen the 10 Commandments video? That's proof isn't it?

[SubZero]

 

 

WEEEEE!!!!!!

 

What religion are you inferring to? You really can only think of one religion that has coincidental "prophecies" that correlate with their book of worship....You should be a comedian....

 

 

I'm terrible at telling jokes but you made me laugh!

[chiplee]

I merely mentioned that people driven by science should take the bible into account - lets not forget history - not last year or all the way back to 1500 B.C. and im sorry, but the bible contains a whole lot of history. In speaking of evidence that speaks contrary to the bible, I don't believe you have brought forth 'evidence' to contradict the bible

 

Don't forget what I said about the nature of knowledge and how we rank our various conjectures. You'll recall, assuming you read what I wrote, that outside of math and logic, EVERYTHING is conjecture. (post #208 if you'd like to review) You should also recall that we have not one but TWO tools at our disposal for ranking our various conjectures. Do you remember what they were? They were evidence and reason, not just evidence. So when I look at the available information and analyze the HISTORY you speak of, I see things that call into question the authenticity of the whole "Jesus story" and I reason that no one story is believable enough to deserve my allegiance. For example, history teaches of no less than a dozen crucified savior Gods who were born of a virgin, died on the winter solstice and then reanimated to ascend into heaven on December 25th. That's not just me talking. That's the WAY IT IS at the pinnacle of knowledge on this subject. It is so well accepted in fact that church leadership admits it, and contends that Satan planted those other god stories to throw us off of the true God's trail. What it suggests to me is that I couldn't possibly have any intellectually defensible reason to rank the "Jesus is Lord" conjecture over the conjecture that one of those other gods might be the creator of everything. In fact, the history leads me to develop my own conjecture; that Jesus may be a composite of many popular god ideas from history. And there is SO MUCH MORE to consider from history when analyzing Christianity.

 

- theories yes, but that seems to be the extent. And around we go - it is an endless circle at this time that will be continually argued.

 

In post #253 I covered in detail your misunderstanding of the word "theory". I'm really starting to think you are ignoring my posts. Perhaps I spoke too soon of the sincerity of your effort to understand. If you actually wish for us to stop going around and around in an "endless circle", perhaps you could start reading what people are writing and offer point by point rebuttals or concessions as appropriate. Many of your points have been firmly refuted, and yet you persist in this same line of reasoning as if you haven't read a word of it.

Edited April 1, 2012 by chiplee

[john82wa]

Certainly not ignoring any one post - may need to sink in a few times before it sinking in entirely and I understand what IMWII is saying to in response to the chariots in the sea. I further understand what you mean in regards to using ones own experience to enhance ones belief system. I suppose it's a pointless debate because you guys are absolutely correct in pure difinitive proof of the Holy Bible and the trinity. I believe we touched base on faith and I suppose that is why it is the cornerstone of christianity. That makes miracles just unexplained events in your eyes and I suppose your right if you get right down too it. There still wont be changing my belief or stance. It's not that im listening and tossing what you have aside. It makes me want to understand more and you bring up nothing short of valid points. I doubt I will ever get the answers in the near future (hopefully not), but I will certainly pay close attention to science to see what else is revealed. Every scientist has his specialty and if I had the choice, it would be the stories of the bible.

[lmwii]

for me, it's more frustrating to hear a believer try to use evidence and logic to try and prove the bible's veracity than it is to know that they are believers. you should just stand on your faith instead of trying to cite facts to back up bible stories or to try to prove god's existence. there is, for me, an aspect of the admirable in a faith so strong that it stands up in the face of logic and reason. that same believer, though, incites only contempt and derision when he tries to use science or empirical evidence as support for his belief system.

[john82wa]

I guess 'compelling' is the key word. Because something can't be proven, it doesn't make it false and maybe that's why my views are the way that they are.

[DieHARDmitsu.]

I don't know where this is all going, interesting though...

some men have more faith in the stuff they flush down the toilet and think themselves to be of the same matter; its quite laughable. if thats the logic one chooses to accept, then so be it.

Edited April 1, 2012 by DieHARDmitsu.

[chiplee]

Educate me Boho, seriously though - what religions have had prophecies that have been true? And which ones of the bible do you find coincidental?

 

....I thought I was done

John82wa: Yeah, it's cool that the pillar marking the crossing spot of the Red Sea still exists and can be seen on google Maps. Many artifacts have been found there, with much more still there. The route to the real Mt. Sinai is exactly as the Bible said it was. Ending at the well documented place of the actual mountain in Saudi Arabia. Except it has been blocked out by google maps. Again, the powers in charge of the world, controlling yet another thing that knowledge thereof would impact their wallet.

 

I really love to see things in sctripture proven right, with nothing ever being proven wrong. The problem with mainstream science is that it cares nothing about evidence, and in fact supresses evidence to sway the market. It is a pawn to fleece the people with and has no regard for truth or 'evidence'. Of course, that means it isn't science at all. The only true science is supported biblicly. There is no other science without desecrating the word.

 

The thing about God is that His knowledge can't fit into our heads. What any person can do for themselves is prove God in their own life which cannot be accomplished without faith and belief in Him. Then one starts to understand bits and pieces of why God did/does things. It isn't about punishment at all. It is about the greater good. That greater good starts with the individual, thus the 10 commandments. If you lie, you are putting yourself and those around you in danger because the person lied to might just want to hurt you. Same with stealing, coveting, etc... Sexual thoughts are bad because they hurt YOUR health. Just looking at porn causes your heart to beat differently and unhealthily. In fact, it takes less than porn. Just the thought causes those things. God is just trying to save you and those around you by letting you know these things are wrong and bad for you. A good world starts with good people in each country. A good country is only accomplished by good people. Good state, county, city, community, neighborhood, and family. It all comes down to all of as individuals doing our part to obey God and live happy, content lives in peace with everyone. Those that don't, will cause unhealthy problems starting with themselves.

 

As for profitting in organized religion: It takes work to organize the help that people need. Help that litterly saves their soul, and life here on earth. I wouldn't expect people in the ministry to not get paid for it. Most pastors and church leaders are on call 24/7. They go to prisons, jails, hospitals, assisted living places, building churches, supplying food and clothing, etc... If their ministry allows them to get paid a certain amount, I don't expect them to not take it. Their blessing encourages me to try hard and strive forward in my life too.

 

 

I'm sure there were more mentions of prophecy, but I quoted the ones I could find and this is my reply to all of them.

 

"But you asked me what the scariest things are in Christianity: this infatuation with biblical prophecy and this notion that Jesus is going to come back as an avenging savior to kill all the bad people." -- Sam Harris

 

Chip, God can and will stop Satan. It is even prophesied how God will do that.

One third of the bible is about prophecies, all fulfilled prophecies have been 100% right.

I can't think of any other religion that can back up their word with prophecies.

 

 

 

100% correct by what standard? I'll share some SAB analysis here for your consideration.

1. Matthew claims that Jesus' birth in Bethlehem fulfills the prophecy in Micah 5:2. But this is unlikely for two reasons.
   
   • "Bethlehem Ephratah" in Micah 5:2 refers not to a town, but to a clan: the clan of Bethlehem, who was the son of Caleb's second wife, Ephrathah (1 Chr.2:18, 2:50-52, 4:4).
     
   • The prophecy (if that is what it is) does not refer to the Messiah, but rather to a military leader, as can be seen from Micah 5:6. This leader is supposed to defeat the Assyrians, which, of course, Jesus never did.
     

It should also be noted that Matthew altered the text of Micah 5:2 by saying: "And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda" rather than "Bethlehem Ephratah" as is said in Micah 5:2. He did this, intentionally no doubt, to make the verse appear to refer to the town of Bethlehem rather than the family clan. 2:5-6[*]"Out of Egypt I have called my son,"

Matthew claims that the flight of Jesus' family to Egypt is a fulfillment of Hosea 11:1. But Hosea 11:1 is not a prophecy at all, as is clear when the entire verse is quoted ("When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."). It is a reference to the Hebrew exodus from Egypt and has nothing to do with Jesus. Matthew tries to hide this fact by quoting only the last part of the verse. 2:15

[*]Matthew quotes Jeremiah 31:15, claiming that it was a prophecy of King Herod's alleged slaughter of the children in and around Bethlehem after the birth of Jesus. But this verse refers to the Babylonian captivity, as is clear by reading the next two verses (16 and 17), and, thus, has nothing to do with Herod's massacre. 2:17-18

[*]"He shall be called a Nazarene." Matthew claims this was a fulfillment of prophecy, yet such a prophecy is not found anywhere in the Old Testament. 2:23

[*]The devil correctly quotes scripture (Ps.91:11-12), while Jesus misquotes Deuteronomy by adding "only" to Dt.6:13. 4:6, 10

[*]Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

[*]Jesus tells his disciples that he will return before they can "go over the cities of Israel." Later (24:14) he says he will not come until the gospel is preached throughout the world. Well, his disciples went over the cities of Israel and then died waiting for the "return of the Lord." Now, nearly 2000 years later, and long after the gospel had been preached throughout the world, his followers still wait. 10:23

[*]When Jesus and his disciples are accused of breaking the Sabbath, he excuses himself by referring to a scripture in which priests who "profaned the Sabbath" were blameless. But there is no such passage in the Old Testament. 12:5

[*]"The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me."

These words were spoken by Isaiah and referred to Isaiah. They were not a prophecy about a future prophet, as Jesus claims here, where he supposedly read these verses in the synagogue while applying them to himself. 4:16-20

[*]Jesus falsely predicts that some of his listeners would live to see him return and establish the kingdom of God. 9:27

[*]Jesus prophesies that families will be divided because of him and his teachings. Sadly, this is one prophecy that has been fulfilled. 12:52-53

[*]There will be nothing subtle about Jesus' return. It will be like lightning that flashes from one end of the heaven to the other. Like the Wicked Witch of the West writing "Surrender Dorothy" in the sky. Like that. 17:24

[*]Before the end of the world there will be many false Christs that claim the end of the world is near (Don't believe them) (8), there will be "wars and commotions" (but ignore that) (9), along with earthquakes, famines, pestilences, and "fearful sights" and "great signs from heaven" (11).

Believers will be arrested and persecuted by the Jews, who will throw them in prison (12), friends and family will betray each other and some will be put to death (16), and believers will be hated by everyone (17). But don't worry. Not a single hair on your head will be hurt (even if you are killed) (18).

When you see armies around Jerusalem, then you'll know desolation is near (20). Then it's time to head for the hills. Unless you're a pregnant or nursing women, that is. (23) Then you're just ********. Too bad for you.

God's wrath will be on everyone, with dead bodies all over the place, Jerusalem will be trodden on by Gentiles until "the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." (24) There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars, with lots of waves in the sea. (25)

Everyone will be afraid of everything (26) and then they'll see the Son of Man coming in all his glory. (27)

Oh, and all these things will happen within the lifespan of Jesus' contemporaries (32). 21:8-27

[*]Jesus says that all that he describes (his return, signs in the sun, moon, and stars, etc.) will occur within the within the lifetime of his listeners. 21:32

[*]Jesus claims that his suffering and death were a fulfillment of prophecy. But there is no such prophecy in the Old Testament. 24:44, 46

That's enough for now. If you fellas are able to explain these, I'll have about 500 more for you.

[john82wa]

The Skeptics Annotated Bible, lol, too late for me to do that tonight - but it sounds fun and I will take a look at it tomorrow and read up on it myself

[Metric-man]

This thread sounds too much like a legal battle than a theological discussion.

 

If someone wants to pursue the same ideaology as to counter the basis of scientific acceptance.

 

All you need to do is ask a scientist or a mathematician if what they have is an exact science.

 

It almost feels as if we are joining the ranks of the Thought Police

which was a very real pratice over 100 years ago in Japan.

 

 

特別高等警察

Tokubetsu Kōtō Keisatsu

http://en.wikipedia....%C5%8D_Keisatsu

 

http://en.wikipedia..../Thought_Police

Edited April 1, 2012 by Metric-man

[SubZero]

Chip, when you say:

That's enough for now. If you fellas are able to explain these, I'll have about 500 more for you.

 

What this tells me is that one can prove to you a 1,000 prophecies to be 100% correct and you

would still not change your mindset.

 

What are the odds of just 1 prophecy to turn out 100% correct?

The bible is filled with fulfilled prophecies!

And yet it is still not enough to cause one to have faith that God exists.

 

Faith ( I believe even you said this before ) is born out need.

It takes a person to first recognize that they are sinners and need a savior.

Salvation is a gift from God, it cannot be earned by works.