Rayman4449 Posted June 9, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2003 There are two extra wires. One is to be used for tapping into an RPM signal (not from the coil), it must be from an ECU type line signal from what the instructions said.) For the DSM, the instructions said to tap I believe the Crank position sensor, which we don't have. So to correctly hook it up, we will have to find the correct wire from the ECU or something. The other wire is for like nitrous. The manual explains in detail. HOWEVER, these two wires are not required and the device works just fine without either being connected. Neither of us are running extra injectors, but my bro did put on a bigger fuel pump which raised his baseline pressure a bit. We are looking into what wire to tap into, but I'm not 100% sure what the RPM signal is exactly supposed to do yet. Since I heard from the dsmtuners site that it runs fine without it, for now we just didn't worry about it.(we were too busy getting this setup) And from what we can tell, there don't seem to be any adverse effects to running without it whatsoever. That may be true that fuel delivery is a key driving force behind DSM folks doing this upgrade, but I feel that could be misleading to others as to the other benefits because I feel there are multiple reasons/benefits for considering this upgrade. I would agree that being able to adjust fuel delivery to compensate for more fuel from a larger fuel pump(yes, in our case the "TEP 500 HP" fuel pump resulted in the car running MUCH richer.), or extra/larger injectors is a big one for considering it. Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinx Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 GNs been runnin' this impala / truck maf translator thingy for years Actually gm had stopped making the original GN mafs for a while, so I understand it led to the development for the buicks. I mentioned this maf thingy long ago on this board, but never expanded upon it, because I wondered if it wasn't too late for starquests ? why? 1G mafs are a *cheap* upgrade. DSMers report tuning is not on par with safc (~$100 used ) Still got; restrictive TB - poor distribution issue - 12-18yr old electronics - oe injector$$$$$, etc Keep in mind, prices are falling everyday on engine management systems.... especially the "fuel only" units, where u run $55 map sensor, so no restriction by any kinda mafs, and *full* tunability. Imported ones are cheaper still also A used GM mafs (~$50) will lower price some... they're not *that* old. dsmtuners and dsmtalk have feedback from people who run the gm mafs just ahead of the throttle body - thats right *blow thru*, AFTER the turbo... so no need to recirculate your bov Good detailed post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWD4G63 Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 I want to know more about the adjustment. What does it have 3-4 knobs? If so is it setup like one is idle then the other sare what RPM points? Can you be specific. Like what RPM ranges it lets you tune and how much adjustment. I think you mentioned 35%+- at WOT but by WOT what do you mean does it just do the entire fuel curve or does it have 3-4 points etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Hmmm, the Ramchargers group only just started selling this translator unit a couple months ago. The DSM community acted like this was the greatest thing since sliced bread. What/who is GN? I don't think this is the same unit as the Translator that Ramcharger is putting out so I don't know that you can compare the two. (I maybe wrong) from what we have seen, this one offers a wide range of adjustability to the point where we are running exactly where we want to be, with almost no time. A new fuel management system I think is still on the order of a $1000 on up isn't it and alot more work. I mean we had this thing tuned in just a few mins. There seemed to be ALOT of DSMers going to this setup. Besides, for like you said with the limitations of the TB injection, I don't know that I would want to go through that much trouble with a fuel managment system unless you were going Multiport injection, which throws the $$ even higher. All I will say is that after what I've seen from my brother's car, you can truely build one hell of a car with just a good engine, turbo, fuel pump, exhaust and intake pipes. I guess it just depends on how far you want to go. Also, the recirulation of the BOV is not just for metered air accuracy, our main goal is for turbo spool up between shifts which my brother and I both have seen improved turbo performance with the bypass over the blow off configuration. But, I agree the push through would be more accurate given any air leaks etc. Push through all the way around is probably the best way to go, but for me its just too much hassle. The performance difference between the 1G and this is like night and day, at least for a setup like my brothers. So, to me, it doesn't matter how cheap it is, it doesn't match up. But, I do understand what you mean. At least we have that as an option if someone doesn't have $450! But the 1G is still going to cost $100 between the MAS/lid & K&N. But, my brother did notice a pretty good increase in performance going to the 1G mas. I recommend anyone considering this setup read the www.dsmtuners.com post on this setup. Thanks for your comments, I think it's important to get other views to keep things in perspective!!! Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWD4G63 Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Can you look at my post a couple above? Also, translators for gm mafs have been available for DSMs and many other cars for years, however this is the first for a DSM that is cheap. That is why there is big success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jinx Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 yeah, thats all it is, a different perspective... to stimulate thinkin' Whether or not it's worth building on the stock platform, with its age and shortcomings, is anybody's call For instance, my buddy paid buck$$$ for a used, way overpriced pos HKS vpc... then I showed him the maf translator Sure you'd feel a performance gain, sorta like those "freak" 86 starquests experience when they run with no mafs, huh ? Of course this maf translator will outperform a 1G mafs - you're comparing a tunable system to a not tuned one (1G)... power is air/fuel. Run a hacked 1G mafs with a used safc.... different story (again taking the stock TB / distribution into consideration) Yep, cheapest way to fly multiport, is to mod a stock intake.. and yes its more work and $$$, but then you're on another level (+ new stuff) Dunno who exactly made it, but my buddy has this same gadget on his GN. When I sold my GN not too long ago, it still had stock mafs (lo miles) GN = grand national. As RWD stated, these mafs have been around Anyhow, glad u guys got great results... just another testimony of the gains found when removing restrictions.... and at an affordable price. good job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HotrodTSi Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 The guys at Ramchargers designed and produced the original Translators for the GN crowd when the factory MAF's became hard/expensive to get. Later, the owner started modifing his AWD Turbo Eclipse and decided to re-design the Translator for the DSM crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 RWD4g63, if I remember correctly, it has 4 knobs. One to set the baseline for the size of injectors you are running. The 2nd through 4th one is for idle, mid and WOT fuel adjustments. I'm not sure on the RPM ranges each affects, havn't gotten to that point yet. My guess is that for each certain flow rate range (or signal range) that the meter is reading, the translator then utilizes a different adjustment i.e. idle, mid, or WOT. I don't think WOT is the entire fuel curve, I think the injector setting is for the entire fuel curve. Sorry I don't know more that that at this point. And that is interesting on the fact that translators have been around just not cheaply... didn't know that. Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
importwarrior Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 do you think it is possible to make this work with 2 of the big injectors? rather than the primary secondary setup of a stock quest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nine5raptor Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Adding a bit to this (I am a kcdsmer running an ls1 maf and trans). First off, this unit is load based rather than rpm based like the afc. It uses airmass/rpm to determine the load on the engine and then picks which map to use (idle, mid, wot). If the rpm wire is not hooked up, then it goes into backup mode and bases tuning decisions solely on airmass, i.e. <50g/sec is idle, 50-120 grams/sec is mid, 120+ grams/sec is wot, so it is advantageous to have an rpm signal. The 4 switches are for 1. 1g/2g dsm 2. 3"/3.5" mas 3. fuel cut on/fuel cut off 4. flat/contoured aux control (the purple wire that when energized switches to a different map for water inj., nitrous, propane, etc.) The primary knob sets the 'overall' or base. Mine (2g/3s; I'm sure the 1g/2g is very similar) will lean out up to 65% or richen up to 10% on the entire fuel map. For instance: if I put 880cc/min injectors in my dsm, I would set it initially on 50% lean. This would mean the ecu will see 10lb/min instead of 20lb/min. Simple enough. Now the other 3 knobs are idle, mid, wot and each allow for +/- 35% for fine tuning. Ex. My 2G has ALWAYS run the long term fuel trim at 17%, but when I step on the gas the short term has to lean it out -11%. So, I set my base at 0 (450's) idle at +20% fuel, mid at -10%. Seems like a large jump, but the ecu is actually seeing a smoother transition and the throttle-stab hiccup the car had is now gone. Spool is much better on the 14b I am running (quicker than the T25) and when I buy larger injectors (soon), I already have all I need to get them running and tuned. As one last note. I bought a used ls1 maf from a 02 ws6 t/a for $50, $200 for the maft, and made/modified my intake piping for free to get the trans. hooked up. So, $250 is getting close to the price of an afc, but if I decide to go larger than 720's, I will have no idle problems, and you don't have the extra lag induced by the afc seeing full throttle at low rpm and switching to rich when you are just barely over the high threshhold. Also if anyone needs to flow a LOT of air, I know they have made at least one translator for a guy using 4 1650cc/min injectors. Any questions email clbf43@umkc.edu or I checked the bottom of this thread Chris RWD4g63, Â if I remember correctly, it has 4 Â knobs. Â One to set the baseline for the size of injectors you are running. Â The 2nd through 4th one is for idle, mid and WOT fuel adjustments. Â I'm not sure on the RPM ranges each affects, havn't gotten to that point yet. Â My guess is that for each certain flow rate range (or signal range) that the meter is reading, the translator then utilizes a different adjustment i.e. idle, mid, or WOT. Â I don't think WOT is the entire fuel curve, I think the injector setting is for the entire fuel curve. Â Sorry I don't know more that that at this point. And that is interesting on the fact that translators have been around just not cheaply... didn't know that. Â Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Importwarrior, I don't know but you might be able to. Â One way to find out... Â Wow, thanks Chris for the input and information! Â That helps a bunch!!! Anyone else, I havn't looked into it yet, but does anyone know of a good line we can tap into to obtain the RPM signal from the ECU? Â I assume it has to be from the ECU. My guess was that we can tap the signal that controls the stock tachometer? I assume that comes from the ECU. Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artinist Posted June 10, 2003 Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 I think the originator of the RPM signal is the distributor, which should be easy to tap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 10, 2003 Ohhhhhh... Is that the black wire(s) that is clipped next to the distributor cap? I bet it is. I guess that would be a clean signal, not like tapping the coil I take it? Can anyone confirm that? Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nine5raptor Posted June 11, 2003 Report Share Posted June 11, 2003 I would either A: call mike at ramchargers and ask him or B: just try it. I had to try about 3 different places on mine to get a signal that it would accept as the '95 dsms are just a little different than all the others. Didn't hurt anything by trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2003 On page 8-155 of the factory manual (electical guide), there is a Distributor signal generator that has three wires. That may be it like was mentioned before, my translator is on backorder so it will be another week or so before I can do any runs on my car. Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
importwarrior Posted June 13, 2003 Report Share Posted June 13, 2003 any updates? thanks for this great post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2003 No problem, I'm glad I can share something that might help you guys! Well, I found out that Ramchargers has the translators on backorder and should receive some in next week so I won't be doing too much till it comes in. Since I hav to wait, I painted my 90 deg pipe so it will be about a week and a half before I can use it to hook it up. When I have some time I will try and tap the signal lines from the distributor signal generator (i.e. pickup coil?) to see if I get an RPM signal. If so, I will publish which wire it is so everyone can know what to tap. Other than that, I got all the other pieces in so I'm just waiting on the translator. I'll let you know as soon as it comes in! Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nine5raptor Posted June 13, 2003 Report Share Posted June 13, 2003 Hey, Ray, I got mine installed in the cabin today (still working on it) and also switched the eprom over to the v1.3 software. I'll let you know how it is to tune, as others are already saying it is much more predictable. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2003 That's great Chris. I'm glad you noticed the same thing. Did your idle smooth out at all? I don't think my Translator will be in for the 6/22 DSM meet but, my car will be there and so will my bro. Will we see you there? Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nine5raptor Posted June 14, 2003 Report Share Posted June 14, 2003 You should... I am taking a couple of summer classes so I may be swamped, but I will be out there for a while at least. I want to make a few passes with the new turbo and translator. chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpackingpoet Posted June 16, 2003 Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 You guys think there's enough interest for GP? Â Â I'm sure we could get good discount if someone got a "kit" together... Â I'm saving up for that DOHC, but I'd definitely be interested in purchasing now if we could get a GP going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayman4449 Posted June 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2003 I won't be involved in that since I already have my equipment. Anyone care to step up on this one? Although, I don't know if Ramchargers is going to come down on the price any... Raymond Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nine5raptor Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 I really doubt they would. I think this was discussed on dsmtuners and they said they just can't afford to do one. It really isn't bad though if you compare it against the price of an afc/dsm mas and I for one am much more of a fan of load based tuning instead of rpm based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunpackingpoet Posted June 17, 2003 Report Share Posted June 17, 2003 What's a better combination? The GM unit w/translator or the dsm maf w/safc? I just happen to have a new SAFC laying around and recently got a 1G MAS real cheap. If I can save the $450 or that be great, but if the improvements are as good as what these posts say they are, then I'll probably get the GM unit w/translator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWD4G63 Posted June 18, 2003 Report Share Posted June 18, 2003 I personally am going to go with the afc/translator. I don't feel the translator by itself has enough adjustment for me to achieve what I want to do. So I will use the translator and the afc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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