Twincharged.

[eeaston]

Well, It's nearly ready to run!  For those that don't know, I've put an Eaton M90 supercharger where the AC compressor used to go.  For now, I've got a header on the exhaust, but once it's up and running and I get my MPI on it, I'll be running a T3/T4 blowing thru the M90.  Once the turbo spools, it'll free up the nearly 40 horses that the blower uses.  Plus it'll be capable of higher boost levels. THe blower isn't designed for pressures much over 10 PSI.  So theoretically it'll be a sweet combo of bottom end and high rev power, and extremely streetable.  I was doing some research yesterday and saw somewhere that I think Toyota did this on a one of their cars.

 

See pics at http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirt/lst Eaton M90/MS install folder.

EDIT:  HKS made a twincharger kit for the MR2

[conquestpa]

You should make it bypass the supercharger after 11 Psi, that would be awesome...!

 

[eeaston]

I've sized the pulley to produce (theoretically) around 12 PSI(pushing it a little).  Like you said, a bypass will open whenever the turbo is producing more boost than the blower.  that way the pressure before and after the blower will be equalized and the blower will only take around 1/2 horse to turn!  Wahoo!

[DJpowerHaus]

That is truly awesome... I thought the only car to do Turbo/Supercharging was the old Lancia Delta S4 Group B rally car.  Apparently it was extremely hard to sink up for them and they were in a million dollar motor sport.  Good luck and I would LOVE to see photos and torque and HP curves if you get them.

 

S4 links:

http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/lancia_delta_s4.htm

http://www.stormloader.com/groupb/lancia.html

[eeaston]

Thanls for the links. I hadn't heard of that car before.  Hopefully the transition will be easier to dail in since I'm using comparative pressures to make the switch whereas the Lancia used some kind of RPM based system.

[DJpowerHaus]

I have read I think.. that you are at school and havnt gotten all this up and running yet and that you are making your own EFI?  How's that panning out?  Your car sounds like a beast.  How beasty is it?

[eeaston]

Yep, I'm afraid that school's interfering with my education, but it can't be helped.  I'm still testing the ECU on the bench before I try running it.  I've got all the wiring done and sensors installed.  Time is the enemy.  The car's at my parents' house-4 hours from school.  As it sits, I've got the blower on and ready to go with just a 4-1 header on the exhause side.  It ran this way, but poorly with the stock ECU, quite a difference in VE from a turboed car, so I'm working on the tuning problem now.  If I get the ECU working right then it should be no problem tuning the thing for the various mods I've done.  Once this stage is all tuned and debugged and I'm willing to be without the car again, I'll be putting on an MPI manifold I'll build, then the T3/T4 will be going on.  That's when the fun begins.  With just the blower I don't expect the car to be a whole lot faster than stock except in the bottom end.  The inefficiency of the blower really catches up to you up high.  Once the project is finished, THEN it'll be Beastly!

[skyquest89tsi]

so what you are going to have done is have the turbo blow air into the supercharger. and then go to the intake???

 

if you say that the supercharger can only handle about 10 psi's ....then wouldn't it be useless if the T3/T4 was pushing out like 20 or more psi.  and cause the air to then slow back down to 10 psi before going into the intake.

 

what i think would be a good idea is getting a supercharger from something like a mazda millenia.  those superchargers are rated at 14 or more.( about the same supercharger that is in the SLK AMG) and you could use a stock turbo to help it spool up easier.  

 

i was thinking something along the lines of.....

 

stock turbo  to supercharger.  with bov in between the two ( set to open so that the turbo is never pushing more boost then the supercharger,only enough to help take away the supercharger lag, and bypassed so the air is going back to the turbo inlet) then from supercharger....is the intercooler....pipe to intake with another bov with no bypass. and have the supercharger set to something like 20psi or more.

this way the air is not heated up like a turbo would at those psi's.  and you will even better cooling with the intercooler.

 

not sure if i explained thing the way i thought them.

and i don't mean to say that your idea was bad...just sharing my thoughts. no disrespecting happening here.

 

later.

houa

[eeaston]

I will have a valve to bypass the blower that will open whenever there is a pressure drop across the blower.  That way I can run as much boost as the turbo will produce.

 

The eaton M90's efficiency starts to drop off after around 10 PSI(stock-  It can be ported to improve efficiency) .  Mazda uses a Lysholm-screw type blower.  They are more efficient than eaton's modified roots type, but also VERY expensive.  Ford and GM have been putting Eatons on factory cars for years, so they're easy to find used and cheap(mine was $300).  If I could get an autorotor unit for that, I would have.

 

Funny thing is that the air probably heated MORE by a supercharger than by a properly sized turbo at the same pressure.  Check out the "Delta Temperature"graph on this page:http://www.magnuson-products.com/m90_3rd_generation.htm

 

That means that if the air comes in at 80 degrees, it leaves at 260!  Needless to say, I'm running it through the (modified) intercooler.

[ducxtreme]

Easton,

 

 

 

 

  Glad to see someone did ge a SC on one of these.. your following a path i wanted to start a long time ago just hadn't had te funds..  some frieds and i had put together a system we now use on a few honda del sols using a smaler rots charger from mercedes slk.. diffrendce and beauty of  was boost on demand or fuel milage.. electric clutch system..  

 

 

 

 

my plan was to use this clutched blower  and have it set to shut off at a certain RPM where the turbo would take over..

 

appreciate the lancia links much..

[stariongirl]

did this ever happen?

[shift1313]

i believe as the car sits(sorry eric if ive got it wrong) its running megasquirt and the m90.  no turbo as of yet.  eric just made his intake not too long ago, or most of it and is still working on it. and boy does it look nice.

[stariongirl]

i believe as the car sits(sorry eric if ive got it wrong) its running megasquirt and the m90.  no turbo as of yet.  eric just made his intake not too long ago, or most of it and is still working on it. and boy does it look nice.

 

 

it is a super charged 2.6 then? sounds like something i woul like to see.

stariongirl

[eeaston]

Hey guys.

 

Yep, as it sits it's got the eaton M90 and magna MPI on it and its running well.  To be honest, I'm not too impressed with the supercharger.  I'm only running 10 LBS of boost, but I really expected more bottom end.  The top end is very anticlimactic, as expected.  I'm not sure where I'll go from here, I may get back to my roots and pull the blower and slap the T3/T4 back on.  We'll see, though. I'm just not seeing serious benefits in the low revs as was my goal with this project.  I suspect that with a cam made for the application and header with longer primaries I would probably get much better results, but I really miss that turbo top end!  It has been a serious learning experience, and not a terribly expensive one, so I don't regret it at all.

[_Jason]

at what rpm does the s/c make 10 psi? for a twincharge setup, it would seem like you'd want a clutch-type s/c to be overdriven, then stop driving the s/c right when the turbo starts making boost (~3000 rpm)... i'm sure you know this, but i was wondering if the lack of low end power was caused by underdriving the s/c since you don't have the turbo running yet...

regardless, it is still a wickedly cool project. =)

[Mr_pat]

or.. if you want more out of that M 90 then figure out max rpm on the blower .. 14000 i believe. and figure out the diameter you need to drive the SC to that Rpm on the stock crank pulley..

 

Stock pulley Diameter  <MAX RPM> / ?????? = 14000 RPM

 

the missing part of the equation is the size of the SC Pulley

 

i believe thats how it was calculated..

[_Jason]

that would be the way to go if you don't twincharge, but don't forget about the turbo. =)

 

since the s/c is going to be bypassed once the turbo pressure exceeds what the s/c is generating, you'd want the s/c to be generating as much boost as possible in the lower rpm range, then kick off at a certain rpm to prevent damage. notice how he said max power from the s/c isn't very impressive, but the difference would probably be pretty noticable if it happened at a lower rpm when the turbo would be making very little boost.

 

also, what are you using/plan on using for the valve to bypass the s/c?

[shift1313]

eric. how about advancing the cam a few degrees. that will surely help the low end.  i agree with these guys. get that sc building boost at idle until about 2500rpm when the t3t4 should start to bypass. that would be a wicked combo. good luck

[Mr_pat]

well my reply was for nothing more than to give him better boost while he is using just the SC..

 

 

 

 

but yes if he does the twin setup then he will need to put a bypass on the blower or clutch the blower..

[jinx]

interesting project! It would be cool if you could get it to work like it should. At 10psi you should have a strong pull with lotsa low end grunt... sounds like you got the pulley sizes / rpm right.

Pix didn't work for me.

What exhaust manifold are you using ?

Cam setting or ignition timing may be killing your performance.

Megasquirt you run is fuel only, right ?

 

I recently traded for a JDM supercharged toyota 1.6L - those things are quick right outta the box... twincharged, they're sick! mkI mr2 goes 11s, daily driver. Toyota sc12 & sc14 superchargers are activated just like an ac compressor clutch.

 

some mr2 guy recently posted on club4ag.com his turbo project, running megasquirt (fuel) and megajolt? (ignition) using ford DIS coils.

check it out!

http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=44697

 

I wish I had time to play around with that d.i.y. mpfi stuff.

I'm surprised nobody is cashing in on building em..... like the aussies did with the d.i.y. wideband  

[shift1313]

there is also a diy wb in the megasquirt files.  if your a yahoo memeber its good reference to join the group, just click no emails or you will get 30 a day.  you see a couple MSs go for sale on ebay.  a couple sold within the group but most people dont do it to make money.  we are all appreciative of the time and effort bruce and al put into it and they barely make any money out of the venture.  if you are decent at soldering and have a few hours to put one together thats all it takes. a good saturday of assembly and testing.

[DJpowerHaus]

If anybody wants a zip file of MegaSquirt postings I have the email digests from #816-1547 (and still coming).  Each one contains 25 emails to the list.  That's 18,275 emails.  Email me if you want to read them all :-D.

[shift1313]

if you just join the yahoo group they are all online and you can read at your leisure.  just to know.

[ilikestarion]

go for the twincharger man! i had an mr2 up until yesterday. i had done a LOT of research into the twincharging area. the HKS kit was awesome, never got one though, they've been out of production for years. Anyway, there are a lot of sites with diagrams on how to do the piping. it's actually better to have the air go through the SC and then into the turbo. then have a bypass valve (bypass the SC) that goes into the turbo. the turbo will actually open the valve by itself once the efficiency of the SC starts to drop. if i can find the diagrams i will send them if you still want it.

In the USCC in sport compact car from February 02 there is a twincharged mr2. apparently you're talking about 300hp with a 1.6L so umm.... 2.6 would definately be worth it if you can supply that crazy amount of fuel. (shouldn't have a problem with MPI anyway) so yeah, do it man, go for it! how many twincharged starions have you seen? i would LOVE to see it, and you never know, you just migh tbe able to sell a kit or something on here. i'm sure it would be interesting to have an MPI/twincharger kit for like 3000 minus turbo. that way they could pick the max HP. yeah, just my 2 cents. send me a pm if i forget to send you the diagram. later

bendo

[Sonypete]

Yea the whole thing with a "smaller" pulley is that it will gain ALLOT in the low RPMS but once it gets up there rpm wise it starts to become massively ineffiecient. But in your case thats when you bypass it and turn the boost duty over to the turbo. SO technically you could go way "smaller" pulley wise, "smaller" than anyone just running a supercharger would ever consider, because you won't be running the supercharger higher then say 3000 or 4000 rpms.

 

You would gain so much more with a "smaller" pulley more than you would think, go with a custom pulley cause no one is currently making a "small" enough pulley that is just for making making massive boost only up to around 3500-4000 RPMS. :twisted: