Car dies after getting up to operating temps

[Gh4st]

(Vid of Crank no start when hot) Hey Guys! Sorry for posting in newbie, still don't have access to virtual mechanic, haha. So down to the meat and potato's, My 87 Starion has been having an issue where about 20-ish minutes after turning the car on and just letting it sit on idle it randomly dies, but when attempting to start again I get a crank but no start (happy to provide video). I looked around for a similar issue, and I looked at the tach when cranking and dont get a jump associated with a good igniter, BUT I have an MSD igniter and my tach is slow and doesnt 1:1 match the actual revs without a little delay. I'm thinking fuel pump might be having issues at operating temps but in all honesty this is my first project so im kind of a noob. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks guys!! 

Note: after waiting for about 15 mins the car starts right back up, thus the idea about something with temps.

-Gavin

Edited March 7, 2024 by Gh4st

[admin_JAinsworth]

I adjusted your ranking. You should be able to post in VM forum now.

Jimmy

[1SICDSM]

when vehicle stalls and will not start. check for fuel pressure,spark,and confirm coolant temperature with something beside the stock gauge.once you figure out what your losing you can go in that direction

[psu_Crash]

Sounds electrical. Check for spark in the no start condition. Does it start to run rough before shutting off or is it just like someone turned off the key?

Edited March 9, 2024 by psu_Crash

[Gh4st]

11 hours ago, psu_Crash said:

Sounds electrical. Check for spark in the no start condition. Does it start to run rough before shutting off or is it just like someone turned off the key?

Nope, Just like someone turned off the key! Went out today and it was a pretty cold day and wouldn't start all the same (40F weather)

[psu_Crash]

Definitely check for spark. Once you know for sure it's spark or fuel related then we can guide you further. When you first turn on the key do you hear the fuel pump kick on for a couple seconds?

Edited March 11, 2024 by psu_Crash

[Gh4st]

15 hours ago, psu_Crash said:

Definitely check for spark. Once you know for sure it's spark or fuel related then we can guide you further. When you first turn on the key do you hear the fuel pump kick on for a couple seconds?

Yeah, went out today to check spark and swapped out spark plugs for new ones (all good on that front). The car now has a slow crank still but wont start anymore leading me to believe that it is an issue with the alternator. I also checked for fuel, fuel pressure is as it should be and both injectors are firing.

fuel pressure and spark are good, i get a slow crank when trying to start now and tried a jump but fast crank no start aswell.

Edited March 12, 2024 by Gh4st

[1SICDSM]

if you have fuel and spark it should run.unless timing off, the spark jumping in cap,or mecanical failure.it is possible if the coolant sensor for ecu is faulty and reading like -40 degrees .

[kev]

When it goes to stall, can you keep it running at all...by goosing the throttle, etc?    

The coolant temperature sensor may be the issue.   If you connect a 300 ohm resistor between the two poles of the connector, it will simulate a fully warm condition.   Worth a try if you have a resistor handy (I miss radioshack).  

 

[Gh4st]

10 hours ago, kev said:

When it goes to stall, can you keep it running at all...by goosing the throttle, etc?    

The coolant temperature sensor may be the issue.   If you connect a 300 ohm resistor between the two poles of the connector, it will simulate a fully warm condition.   Worth a try if you have a resistor handy (I miss radioshack).  

 

Honestly dies to fast too try

I'll try to diag. the coolant sensors and such, also further test spark. I'm pretty new to the scene, I bought this car as my first REAL project so hopefully i'll figure it out haha. Thanks, I'll update whenever I try to diagnose coolant sensors. 

Update: Had my friend check fuel pressure on crank, he said it looked good. I don’t think it does but idk what to look for. here’s the vid of pressure on crank 

 

Edited March 13, 2024 by Gh4st

[1SICDSM]

thats good fuel pressure .

[kev]

Yes, you have good fuel pressure.   Do you hear any increased noise of the fuel pump as it gets warmer?   Typically, if the pump is the issue, It will be howling loud when it is hot.   If not, I'd put aside fuel (but leave that gauge on there if you can).   Injectors may be a culprit though but being that it does run when cold, I'm not sure I'd focus on them at the moment.   

Any air leaks in the intake system?   The smallest of a leak can cause the car to die, especially after it comes up to temp...including vacuum leaks.   You can cap off every vacuum port and try it...leaving it at idle (don't drive the car without at least the vac advance connected though, but idling is fine).    

Any codes on the ECU?   

In the video, it looks like there is a bunch of stuff added to your car over the years (turbo timer, etc.).   Disconnect all of that as you work to diagnose your problem.   I've learned to always start with what either I or a previous owner 'changed/altered' on the car.    

[Gh4st]

2 hours ago, kev said:

Yes, you have good fuel pressure.   Do you hear any increased noise of the fuel pump as it gets warmer?   Typically, if the pump is the issue, It will be howling loud when it is hot.   If not, I'd put aside fuel (but leave that gauge on there if you can).   Injectors may be a culprit though but being that it does run when cold, I'm not sure I'd focus on them at the moment.   

Any air leaks in the intake system?   The smallest of a leak can cause the car to die, especially after it comes up to temp...including vacuum leaks.   You can cap off every vacuum port and try it...leaving it at idle (don't drive the car without at least the vac advance connected though, but idling is fine).    

Any codes on the ECU?   

In the video, it looks like there is a bunch of stuff added to your car over the years (turbo timer, etc.).   Disconnect all of that as you work to diagnose your problem.   I've learned to always start with what either I or a previous owner 'changed/altered' on the car.    

No Increased noise, I heard the injectors clicking when I used the screwdriver trick. But would it be worth taking them out and inspecting? The AFR that the previous owner has in the car shows the car as running Lean when it ran (Halmeter Af30), though i’m not sure how accurate it is.

I don’t think i’m well versed enough to spot a leak, but when it ran I think the vacuum showed about 20 psi I’ll attach a vid.

Definitely no check engine light but I will check the ECU if I can figure out how, haha.

Sorry if it’s a bit difficult helping me out, but I really do appreciate it! Not a lot of mitsu experts in my area.

For some reason it doesn’t turn over even when cold now so this is the closest I have to a video of it running. If I can find a vid of it idling i’ll upload that aswell

Thanks!

Edited March 13, 2024 by Gh4st

[psu_Crash]

Said you checked spark, but didn't tell us how you did it. I use an in-line spark tester and it makes life SO much easier. No questions about spark then. Fuel definitely looks good. Seems like it revved fine at one point. Based on that I would mostly rule out mechanical failures and fuel pump. 

Doesn't even turn over now??

Throw it on a trailer and come on over. We will figure it out 😎

 

 

Edited March 14, 2024 by psu_Crash

[Gh4st]

On 3/13/2024 at 7:32 PM, psu_Crash said:

Said you checked spark, but didn't tell us how you did it. I use an in-line spark tester and it makes life SO much easier. No questions about spark then. Fuel definitely looks good. Seems like it revved fine at one point. Based on that I would mostly rule out mechanical failures and fuel pump. 

Doesn't even turn over now??

Throw it on a trailer and come on over. We will figure it out 😎

 

 

Honestly I would if I had the time to! haha, but i'll double check spark for sure! 

[Gh4st]

On 3/11/2024 at 6:01 AM, psu_Crash said:

Definitely check for spark. Once you know for sure it's spark or fuel related then we can guide you further. When you first turn on the key do you hear the fuel pump kick on for a couple seconds?

Yup, Checked Spark again with an in-line tester and wouldn’t you know it no spark on any of the cylinders after it dies. I got back from vacation and it decided to start (yesterday) but today It tried to start but had a really rough idle for a couple seconds and then killed itself, even when trying to give it gas. This car had a msd ignition system installed by the previous owner and there’s an ignition hub in the trunk that the owner had when I bought it. What do yall think? 

Thanks!

Edited March 28, 2024 by Gh4st

[psu_Crash]

What MSD setup? 6AL ? Or just Blaster coil? Or? Not sure what you mean by a hub? Possibly an ignitor failure. That is a pretty common issue.

Edited March 31, 2024 by psu_Crash

[Gh4st]

On 3/31/2024 at 5:06 PM, psu_Crash said:

What MSD setup? 6AL ? Or just Blaster coil? Or? Not sure what you mean by a hub? Possibly an ignitor failure. That is a pretty common issue.

Just checked, It has a MSD Timing Computer, MSD 6BTM, and Mcliory Ignition Promaster Coil. There’s an MSD Blaster 2 That seems to have been used in the trunk of the car (not plugged in) I went ahead and replaced Distributor Cap and Rotor, Still no Luck. Very much a newbie so thanks for baring with me.

Edit: There’s also another used looking distributor in the trunk, not sure if it’s a good one that was bought and not installed or if the previous owner installed a fresh one and that’s the old one.

Edit #2: I checked the coil with a multimeter on the positive and negative terminal and only read a steady 00.2 could that be a bad coil/ground?

Edited April 1, 2024 by Gh4st

[psu_Crash]

With the key on do you measure 12V on the coil positive terminal?

 

Found this on another forum Mallory Promaster Coil Part # 29440: Product Suggested Resistance:

Primary: 0.6 ohms
Secondary: 12.3K ohms

If you only measured 0.2 on the primary that is definitely out of spec. Easy enough to swap it out for the blaster coil and see if it makes a difference. I would test it first just so you aren't wasting your time. 

On the blaster coil you should read 

Primary Resistance 0.7 ohms

Secondary Resistance 4.5k ohms

[Gh4st]

10 minutes ago, psu_Crash said:

With the key on do you measure 12V on the coil positive terminal?

 

Found this on another forum Mallory Promaster Coil Part # 29440: Product Suggested Resistance:

Primary: 0.6 ohms
Secondary: 12.3K ohms

If you only measured 0.2 on the primary that is definitely out of spec. Easy enough to swap it out for the blaster coil and see if it makes a difference. I would test it first just so you aren't wasting your time. 

On the blaster coil you should read 

Primary Resistance 0.7 ohms

Secondary Resistance 4.5k ohms

Much Appreciated! Im gonna do a deep dive this weekend checking grounds, fuses, wiring harness etc. I will keep y'all updated 

Again thanks for the help!

gavin

[Gh4st]

7 hours ago, psu_Crash said:

With the key on do you measure 12V on the coil positive terminal?

 

Found this on another forum Mallory Promaster Coil Part # 29440: Product Suggested Resistance:

Primary: 0.6 ohms
Secondary: 12.3K ohms

If you only measured 0.2 on the primary that is definitely out of spec. Easy enough to swap it out for the blaster coil and see if it makes a difference. I would test it first just so you aren't wasting your time. 

On the blaster coil you should read 

Primary Resistance 0.7 ohms

Secondary Resistance 4.5k ohms

Okay so I was reading around the forums and decided to check the sub fusible link 1, and only got less than 1 DCV when I should be getting 12. How do I remove/Inspect It I can’t find how in the service manual. Like i said i’m a noob so i very well could just be dumb.

[psu_Crash]

🤣We don't think you're dumb! All of us started somewhere. I'll take a look at the schematics when I get a chance. This has to be something simple ... finding it is the hard part.

[Gh4st]

11 hours ago, psu_Crash said:

🤣We don't think you're dumb! All of us started somewhere. I'll take a look at the schematics when I get a chance. This has to be something simple ... finding it is the hard part.

Thanks! I’m 17 and this is my first real project car. So I appreciate yall baring with me 😅

[psu_Crash]

I was 18 when I bought my first Starion. At the time I didn't intend on it being a project car... 25 years later I'm still working on it all the time LOL 

The fusible links are in the engine bay right behind the battery on the fender side. If you look at the wiring diagram on starquest garage it's shown on the top left of the second page in wiring diagrams. 

Did you test the positive side of the coil with the key on?

 

[Gh4st]

Yes, I cleaned the grounds on the coil, It reads a solid 3.8 Ohms now, but turning the key doesn’t work now and the battery is fine. I think it’s a grounding issue or something. But I have no Idea where to start when it comes to grounding.