Head Porting - Worth it?

[Caliber308]

A TD0517c @ 15 #'s flow what? like 450CFM (sorry don't know and can't find data on a TD05

 

For a quick light to light car I think the C wheels are a good choice but would definatly upgrade that hotside and let that baby breath. By 5K that thing has got to be choaking itself.

 

YOU have a lot to learn, Like reading my posts thoroughly (Turbo size is in my signature) A TDO5H17C 8CM produces 550 cfm @15psi boost, Efficiency range: 10 to 20 psi. The hot side is a 05H Exhaust wheel. Also, If you don't know, and can't find the data.....Maybe you should refrain from commenting on it.Choking itself at 5000 rpms?

 

To Kev,

I am running almost the same set up you are with the exception of a AMC Marnal and Throttle body::

 

JEs.

Tims Roller Cam.

1.6 Roller rockers.

SS over sized Valves.

Scheider HD Valve springs.

 

Did a mild port and polish help with the Air/Fuel flow? Yep. Cleaning and opening up slightly, the inner casting of the runners on ANY Cylinder Head is a good idea.

 

I guess machine shop prices vary from state to state. My mild port and polish cost $200.00 in 2005.

 

 

Bill

Edited April 24, 2013 by Caliber308

[StarquestRescue]

A TDO5H17C 8CM produces 550 cfm @15psi boost

 

Bill

On a 4.3 liter engine or a big diesel yes. but not on this engine. That 450 cfm estimate is more like it at 15 psi. Porting and spinning the crap out of the engine will help, but high rpms is the quickest way to kill one of these engines.

[Caliber308]

On a 4.3 liter engine or a big diesel yes. but not on this engine. That 450 cfm estimate is more like it at 15 psi. Porting and spinning the crap out of the engine will help, but high rpms is the quickest way to kill one of these engines.

 

I try to use reputable sources and my own experiences for posting information. If they are wrong......?????? But, in this case I don't feel that they are.

 

Also, Revving a engine (above red line) that wasn't built for it is just asking for trouble. After all, A engine (that was built for it) doesn't see 7000 rpms on a continual basis. Just so the membership knows....A Roller Camshaft/ Roller rocker set up WILL allow for above red line RPMs. Less stress on the Valve train

 

Guys, let's face this head on. Try to get your Stock Starquest to rev above 5500 to 6000 rpms. Can't? No surprise there. Air/Fuel cut, Stock ECU override and Camshaft lift prevent it

 

Bill

Edited April 24, 2013 by Caliber308

[jszucs]

YOU have a lot to learn, Like reading my posts thoroughly (Turbo size is in my signature) A TDO5H17C 8CM produces 550 cfm @15psi boost, Efficiency range: 10 to 20 psi. The hot side is a 05H Exhaust wheel. Also, If you don't know, and can't find the data.....Maybe you should refrain from commenting on it.Choking itself at 5000 rpms?

Bill

 

I do read you said TD 05 WAY TO SMALL..... just look at that little round hole.... heck just the exaust housing on the thing alone is super inefficient. Need an 06 for a real upgrade, to real fast spool. Cupple that with some good injector and timing control and you can peg your 15 PSI sitting still on the line.

[Caliber308]

Are those "your" numbers or just ones you ripped from T-racing? yeah, thought so. I have plenty of my own numbers and from multiple heads with various levels of work done to them.

 

Yea, I used T-Racings numbers, just like you used "so called ripped" Krazeds numbers in your post no.45 in this thread. If you have plenty of your own numbers......POST THEM.

 

 

 

Bill

Edited April 24, 2013 by Caliber308

[Caliber308]

I do read you said TD 05 WAY TO SMALL..... just look at that little round hole.

 

Everyone on SQC isn't looking to pull 25 or 30 psi Turbo boost. Why must you think so? Some just want to be able to start and drive their cars trouble free(VM Forum) perhaps with a few mild mods (AVM Forum). After all, there is a Forum for Engine and Performance Modifications. The Advanced Virtual Mechanics Forum is for mild modifications, not for advice about boosting to 25 or 30 psi with a HUGE turbo. But.....some members continue to post their Engine and Performance modification questions and opinions here on the AVM. Why? Because there is very little traffic on the EPM Forum.

 

Jszucs, You should take it upon yourself to steer members with those kind of questions and comments to the EPM Forum. Or, you could always put in a request to create a new forum:The "25 to 30 psi Boost Forum", as to not clutter up the AVM

 

Just telling it like I see it,

Bill

Edited April 24, 2013 by Caliber308

[jszucs]

^ Bill I am trying to make you understand that FLOW and Boost (PSI / BAR) while they have a relationships are two diffrent things. And porting, valve work, and head work have allot to do with it. You can build a very large frame turbo, that will run plent efficient in the 15 PSI range and flow 2 to 3 times the amount of FLOW the small turbo will. You are hung up on this big turbo = you have to run big boost numbers. You could make huge boost numbers just by making a head that dosn't flow at all, 30 40 50 PSI and next to no flow will do nothing, where as amost no boost and pure flow, or even better a blow though setup using huge overlaps, could be done to have very low boost numbers, yet very high flow numbers.

[Caliber308]

Kev,

 

You asked if Head Porting was worth the cost...At $400, maybe. At $800.... HELL NO.

 

Bill

[Caliber308]

^ Bill I am trying to make you understand that FLOW and Boost (PSI / BAR) while they have a relationships are two diffrent things. And porting, valve work, and head work have allot to do with it. You can build a very large frame turbo, that will run plent efficient in the 15 PSI range and flow 2 to 3 times the amount of FLOW the small turbo will. You are hung up on this big turbo = you have to run big boost numbers. You could make huge boost numbers just by making a head that dosn't flow at all, 30 40 50 PSI and next to no flow will do nothing, where as amost no boost and pure flow, or even better a blow though setup using huge overlaps, could be done to have very low boost numbers, yet very high flow numbers.

 

Who wants to make HUGE BOOST??? I don't. With my ported Marnal, Roller set up, Bottom end modifications and Turbo choice, on what I wanted to achieve....I'm there

 

Your still stuck on high Boost numbers...........I give up

 

Jszucs, Let me put this to you plain and simple. I do not wish, nor do I want to boost my Starion above 20 psi, PERIOD.

 

You are only 34 years old. When you get to 57, "if i'm still alive". Tell me then, if you still look at things on SQC the way you do now ,

 

My days of trying to show someone else that I have bigger balls than they do are over. Been there, done that. All I can do now is to give members my knowledge and experience gained over the past 11 years on SQC. Owning and doing modifications on the same 1987 Starion ESIR for 24 Years.

 

Jszucs. When you were 10 years old....I bought my 1987 Starion ESI-R

 

If you reach 57, and are still on SQC.....How are you going to respond to a member that posts having 50 psi boost, while others are producing 100 psi boost. It's no different than what you spouting now

 

Bill

Edited April 24, 2013 by Caliber308

[jszucs]

Who wants to make HUGE BOOST??? I don't. With my ported Marnal, Roller set up, Bottom end modifications and Turbo choice, on what I wanted to achieve....I'm there

 

Your still stuck on high Boost numbers...........I give up

 

Jszucs, Let me put this to you plain and simple. I do not wish, nor do I want to boost my Starion above 20 psi, PERIOD.

 

You are only 34 years old. When you get to 57, "if i'm still alive". Tell me then, if you still look at things on SQC the way you do now ,

 

My days of trying to show someone else that I have bigger balls than they do are over. Been there, done that. All I can do now is to give members my knowledge and experience gained over the past 11 years on SQC. And owning and doing modifications on the same 1987 Starion ESIR for 24 Years.

 

Jszucs. When you were 10 years old....I bought my 1987 Starion

 

Bill

 

What does my age have to do with it? I'm trying to educate you and others here. Your the one stuck on big boost numbers, and not getting boost and flow while related do not have to go together. You can make one setup to make 15 PSI and flow 400 CFM and one setup to make 15PSI and flow 800 CFM...... PSI TO PSI they are the same, FLOW they are light years appart. You could take a head and install a cam that leaves the exaust valves open for a very long time, and make almost 0 PSI yet flow a very high CFM number. The more flow you can make the head have, the more air that can be used without an increased PSI.

 

If you want to educate you should also be willing to learn yourself. Being old has just got you hung up on some old outdated views and technology.

[Caliber308]

What does my age have to do with it? I'm trying to educate you and others here. Your the one stuck on big boost numbers, and not getting boost and flow while related do not have to go together. You can make one setup to make 15 PSI and flow 400 CFM and one setup to make 15PSI and flow 800 CFM...... PSI TO PSI they are the same, FLOW they are light years appart. You could take a head and install a cam that leaves the exaust valves open for a very long time, and make almost 0 PSI yet flow a very high CFM number. The more flow you can make the head have, the more air that can be used without an increased PSI.

 

If you want to educate you should also be willing to learn yourself. Being old has just got you hung up on some old outdated views and technology.

 

I give up. Maybe you should take you new ideas and "technology" to the Engine and Performance Forum. As far as my modifications......I'm happy with the results

 

Jszucs, You seem to be stuck on Turbo cfms. I thought this post was about it being worth spending the money doing port work on a Cylinder Head. I answered yes. You seem to be answering no. First and foremost, Air, Fuel flow and Spark are dependent on the Cylinder Head. Without it, your pistons would just go up and down. A Turbocharger or Turbocharger CFMs aren't even considered in the firing of a Internal Combustion Engine. It, the turbocharger just compresses the air/fuel available.

 

Here's what a Turbocharger does:

 

Internal combustion engines are breathing engines. That is to say, they draw in air and fuel for energy. This energy is realized as power when the air-fuel mixture is ignited. Afterwards, the waste created by the combustion is expelled. All of this is typically accomplished in four strokes of the pistons.

 

What a Turbocharger does is to make the Air/Fuel mixture more combustible by fitting more air into the engines chambers which in turn creates more power and torque when the piston is forced downward by the resulting explosion. It accomplishes this task by condensing, or compressing, the air molecules so that the air the engine draws in is denser.

 

I.E. The smaller the Valve Chamber is in the Cylinder Head. The more the Air/Fuel gets compressed:

 

Stock Valve Chamber: 75.5 CCs.

Marnal Valve Chamber: 73.5 CCs.

 

Porting a Cylinder Head is for a cleaner less restrictive Air/Fuel flow path going to the Combustion Chamber.

 

So yes, a larger Turbo with increased CFMs would push more Air/Fuel into the combustion chamber. That is a give in. But, if you don't desire or need 15 to 30 psi boost (which is very hard on your engine) Stick with a Turbo that gives you a safe and manageable boost level.

 

Bill

Edited April 24, 2013 by Caliber308

[jszucs]

here let me explain it this way so you don't have to give up, and can learn from this.

 

Most peoples PSI reading is comming from the manifold, so that is air not making it into the cylinders. IE a lack of flow of the manifold, head, valves, turbo (hotside), exaust is causing PSI to raise.

 

To further simplify..... If you have a turbo that can push 4 units in and the head will only flow 3 units your going to make 1 unit boost that's not being put in. If you turbo can push 4 units and your head can flow 8 units, you will make 0 units of boost.

 

 

I never said you need to change or are not happy with your setup.... only you know that. I said it was nothing to brag about 7K pulls with a small (lesser flowing) turbo...... So manybe you havn't grown out of the who's got the bigger balz game have you?

Edited April 24, 2013 by jszucs

[Caliber308]

I never said you need to change or are not happy with your setup.... only you know that. I said it was nothing to brag about 7K pulls with a small (lesser flowing) turbo...... So manybe you havn't grown out of the who's got the bigger balz game have you?

 

So, you tell me. What modifications allow me to pull 7000 rpms successfully when the red line on a Stock G54B is 5500 to 6000? Also, how do I run a 950/1150 injector set up without going super rich like others do? And, why hasn't my Limited Slip differential failed by not using Mitsubishi Genuine Gear Oil part no. 8149630EX for 24 years?

 

You seem to think you know it all, and talk a lot of s..t. Answer the questions.

 

Bill

Edited April 24, 2013 by Caliber308

[jszucs]

So, you tell me. What modifications allow me to pull 7000 rpms successfully when the red line on a Stock G54B is 5500 to 6000? Also, how do I run a 950/1150 injector set up without going super rich like others do? And, why hasn't my Limited Slip differential failed by not using Mitsubishi Genuine Gear Oil part no. 8149630EX for 24 years?

 

You seem to think you know it all, and talk a lot of s..t. Answer the questions.

 

Bill

 

Ok so the roller cam rockers helped allot with binding / flaoting issue, along with open times of the valves. I would hope the rods were preped, and ends properly resized and pins offset. I'm going to guess you have some type of ignition / timing control or have a fixed setup more for the higher end, which would make it doggy down low if fixed setup. Your cam profile is also going to help, just being a roller cam, but then also a profile set for higher RPM as well. If the goal was to make a rev monster you would want to destroke it, and lighten everything possible, run super light weight valves, with gas filled stems, and lighter springs ect.

 

Keeping it from going super rich is not rocket science, just 100% meter the air ( I see you recirculate) and have the fuel flow avalable when needed and contorl over the injection. (thats all in the tune)

 

What would not running Mitsu oil in the rear have any effect? Person I would never use mitsu oil as I know there is better avalable.

Edited April 24, 2013 by jszucs

[Starwolf]

I didn't read a lot of the last page but I would like to just point out one thing. High revving an engine isn't exactly good for it but I wouldn't say that is what will always kill an engine that is built for it. The problem with the td05 AND ...AND td05h and probably even the td06 is that it creates a lot of backpressure. That backpressure WILL hurt an engine revving out and you will not continue to make power past 5k or whatever rpm like you could with a larger turbine. So if you ran a 17c with a .70 a/r t3 exhaust side it would do wonders for making more power than a td05 or td05h 17c.

[StarquestRescue]

A high rpm motor can and will put more stress on an engine than a lower rpm slightly higher boost one that makes the same power. It is the rod bearing and rods that take the brunt of the beating. Anyone ever here of a g54 spinning rod bearings? Fortunately are rods are pretty good.

 

If the goals are modest, like Cal's it is cheaper and less stressful on the engine to go lower rpm, slightly higher boost. The lower rpm set up will make more torque, be funner to drive and likely quicker of the lights.

 

If the goals are high, like Pinko's than rpm is a necessary part of the equation.

 

Big normally aspirated type cams and or large overlap cams do not work well in turbo car. this is widely known by experienced turbo engine builders and racers.

 

For the record, my experience is limited to having run the following turbos. Mostly with a little hr 70 cam. And I can back up that experience with data logs, time slips and dyno sheets.

 

 

With 2.5 exhaust

12a

14g 05h

17 05h

19c 15h 15* clip

18g 05

18g 05h

 

With 3" exhaust

18g 05h

18g 05h 15* clip

18g 06

20g 06 starquest turbine housing

20g billet 06 starquest turbine housing

20g billet 06 sy/ty 8cm turbine housing.

[Starwolf]

I see what you mean by a higher rpm engine not lasting as long. I figure it would be pretty minute and really come down to the builder anyways. Either way sorry for not contributing much to the actual thread purpose. If it were me I would say get the 1mm OS SS valves and don't do port work unless you are really wanting to make a lot of power compared to what others have with the g54b.

~450+whp

[jszucs]

Big normally aspirated type cams and or large overlap cams do not work well in turbo car. this is widely known by experienced turbo engine builders and racers.

 

 

Actuly that is not true. You can use a DOHC or quad preferably with variable control but it can be setup static, and do a blow though format. Yes you will be blowing raw fuel out and shooting flames out the pipes. But this can be done to build boost on the line (with also creating a fake load). Leaving the valves open late will allow for a nice draft though and allow more air and fuel to be forced in and then the exaust valve shut and compresion stroke starts. It's not common, but it can be done. Typicly also used in an anti lag system.

 

This was also done with the old style turbo Indy motors. It's just not going to be done for a street car, or anything that doesn't have a large turbo, as the amount of back presure will not allow for you to tune the presurewave needed in the exaust.

Edited April 25, 2013 by jszucs

[Caliber308]

I see what you mean by a higher rpm engine not lasting as long.

 

How often do you think a High Revving G45B engine (that has been built for such a thing) sees maximum RPMs?

 

 

Porting and polishing a Cylinder Head ALWAYS helps with the Air/Fuel flow. Just look at a Cylinder Head that has not had any work done on it and run your finger into the ports, do you feel metal edges and casting lines? Cleaning those up allows a better flow Cleaning the ports up and perhaps enlarging them slightly will enhance your flow. It is not always about making HUGE horsepower, it is about getting a better A/F flow out of your Cylinder Head. Some guys want to install a larger than Stock Camshaft and Over sized SS Valves . Those will allow more Air and Fuel into the system. If you want to fully utilize those upgrades, cleaning up the Cylinder Head ports is a give in.

 

Bill

Edited April 27, 2013 by Caliber308

[MikeMeyerhoff]

Cleaning up the casting is always worth it. Total costs are about 4 hours in your time and less than $5 in rolls/tapers and maybe another $5 is tape/cleaning supplies. Heck, at $10 it will probably pay for itself in MPG over the life of a head nevermind hp.

[Caliber308]

Cleaning up the casting is always worth it. Total costs are about 4 hours in your time and less than $5 in rolls/tapers and maybe another $5 is tape/cleaning supplies. Heck, at $10 it will probably pay for itself in MPG over the life of a head nevermind hp.

 

Anything done to increase the Air/Fuel flow to a Cylinder Head or heads is a plus.

 

Mike,

Well said!!! Cleaning them up a bit can be done, yourself.

 

Bill

Edited May 1, 2013 by Caliber308

[Tim_C.]

The concern with home porting jobs is symmetrical consistency across all ports. Taking out your dremel and touching up minor flaws is one thing, but trying to do an all out port job yourself isn't the best idea if you really do plan on putting it to the test with a large flow volume. Even normal driving on stock boost can be adversely affected if there is much difference at all cylinder to cylinder.

[Lizzord30]

The concern with home porting jobs is symmetrical consistency across all ports. Taking out your dremel and touching up minor flaws is one thing, but trying to do an all out port job yourself isn't the best idea if you really do plan on putting it to the test with a large flow volume. Even normal driving on stock boost can be adversely affected if there is much difference at all cylinder to cylinder.

 

But then if your running the stock intake it is not even close to consistent flow for all 4 cyl.

[jszucs]

But then if your running the stock intake it is not even close to consistent flow for all 4 cyl.

 

The flow is pretty consistant, the atamized fuel is not is more the problem.

[Caliber308]

The concern with home porting jobs is symmetrical consistency across all ports. Taking out your dremel and touching up minor flaws is one thing, but trying to do an all out port job yourself isn't the best idea if you really do plan on putting it to the test with a large flow volume. Even normal driving on stock boost can be adversely affected if there is much difference at all cylinder to cylinder.

 

Tim, I agree with your comments. I think what Mike was trying to point out is that YOU, yourself can clean up your Cylinder Head ports because of casting imperfections. Yes. We all know, or some of us know that doing porting on a Cylinder Head or heads requires experience in such things. I am shocked at Kevs estimate for doing Port work ($400.00 to $800.00) ??? That seems like this to me:

 

Either the Machine Shop didn't really want to mess with it.

or

They were just trying to rip him off.

 

Bill