Calling Shelby, Indiana, Phinko, Scott87Star...All the big guns...HELP!

[polarisman14]

Yeah, I know. I dont think the knock box is dead but I think it has something to do with the way it is connected to the MS as it had spark and tach signal in-car before and now it doesn't. Has to be something to do with the signal not making it to the MS, just don't know why. I think Shelby is on to something though because the portion of the signal wire going from the ignitor to the weatherpak and MS is shielded but it is not shielded going from the ignitor to the main harness IIRC.

[NotStock88]

You can continue to doubt my suggestion but until you try it you wont know if it works or not!! You can nay-say all day long but my experience was this..

 

I bought the fc1 kit from FIP- hooked it up and ran the car on fuel only - ran great (with tach adapter hooked up). THEN i sent my fc1 to scott for upgrade. I get it back, hook it all up with NO tach adpatger - doing what you doing and trying to "find" the signal before hooking up the tach adapter for the tach - well i had no signal. I then rewired multiple times and was frustrated as all get out for 2 weeks... I ended up sending my ms controller back to scott, he hooked it up and says - "this works fine for me" - then i get it back and STILL no signal -I couldnt figure it out....

 

I finally hook up the tach adapter (per phinko's suggestion) as shown in the diagram i posted - and the ecu "magically" saw signal

 

You can choose to take my advice or leave it. All i know is I am DONE reiterating myself here.

[polarisman14]

The only thing i can think of is that being on the bench and with the Stim versus in the car with the wiring harness installed in the car there must be more stuff to disrupt the signal. The tach adapter just cleans up the signal and makes it stronger so that it can be recognized by the MS ECU.

 

I'm not discounting your strategy, it's just that many people running MS and MPI have NOT had to use the tach adapter to get success with their setups and I was wondering why there was a discrepancy there.

 

I'm gonna try the tach adapter out and regardless of whether or not that works I will likely get the caravan ignitor and pigtail as well. This along with powering the fuel pump with MS rather than the stock ECU will allow me to remove the stock ECU and engine harness.

 

As a side note, does anyone know where in the electrical manual I can find the wiring diagram for the knock sensor? I'm not sure if this is the same in all cases, but my Focus just basically had a piezo system to pick up on otherwise inaudible knock. I believe there are 2 or 3 wires for the knock sensor, I need to find out which one is power, which one is ground (or if it's just grounded to the block when it's screwed in) and which one the signal is. That way I can power it externally (maybe with the MS fuel pump relay or something) and set up everything the way I had it on my Focus. Otherwise the knock sensor doesn't influence timing at all and there's no way for the ECU to compensate anymore since it's not in the picture, so my ears have to do the monitoring.

[polarisman14]

OK, adapter is on order. Worst case scenario if it doesn't work I'll hang on to it until the caravan swap and I can always sell it if I don't need it at that point. I'm grasping at straws here because every indication points toward the gosh darn thing running and it won't. I'd rather buy that now then kill a starter trying to figure out the issue.

[Shelby]

this a pic of the caravan igniter

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_Ignition-Control-Module-BWD_5240417-P_194_R%7CGRPTUNEAMS_554112040____

 

and the dist pig tail wireing harness

http://www.autozone.com/autozone/parts/Duralast-Pick-Up-Coil/1987-Dodge-Caravan/_/N-iijwvZ9n80y?counter=0&itemIdentifier=562_0_0_

 

couldn't find a pic of the pig tail alone but they are avaible, note the ingiter modual MUST have dilectric compound under it for heat transferance

 

also note the MS i use'd was the older style,, there may be a diff in how the newer ones read the ign pulse signal but i have NO problem with takeing the ign signal directly from the neg coil terminal with out any tech adaptor

Edited August 22, 2011 by Shelby

[traps]

It would seem I am out of my league but if windows and belts are also not working and no spark...unless I did not see it was turning over then I would think ignition tumbler

[StarquestRescue]

You sure you do not have some component. wired up to the accessory circuit of the ignition switch? That shuts of when the engine cranks.

[polarisman14]

No idea on that one.

 

And the windows do work, it's the door locks, auto belts, and interior lights that don't work. The wiring on the car is all hacked together and had random wires going all over the place mismatched and improperly installed (no electrical tape, solder, or anything). I removed all of those wires and soldered all the stock wires back together and now I'm starting from ground zero to fix those things.

 

However, this spark issue doesn't involve that because I did those things before winter and this spring when I had the OEM dizzy pickup installed I still had spark--just no signal for whatever reason.

 

Shelby, thanks for the info on the ignitor and pigtail. I'm going to try the tach adapter out and go from there.

 

A friend and coworker of my father is an electrical engineer and wrenches on cars in his free time. He's very handy with an oscilloscope and owns one so I'll be in touch with him to continue the troubleshooting process if need be.

 

I'm determined to get this figured out before winter but since we're getting a puppy this weekend, getting married in 3 weeks, and on our honeymoon for a week one month from now it's difficult to get anything done (awesome, but difficult, haha).

[polarisman14]

Shelby, I'm a bit confused...

 

Is the caravan ignitor and the pickup the same thing? It looks like it is one unit and if so that sounds VERY simple. If it is what I think it is, then the ignitor/pickup is the same thing and you just go from that unit to the ignition coil for both power and ground. And because of the fact that the signal wire from the dizzy pickup goes directly to the ign coil, you would be picking up the IGN signal from the - terminal on the ign coil. Right?

[Funky Phil]

im a bit confused. I was under the impression you were trying to go msns.......

is it msns or fuel only? And is your ECU set accordingly?

[Funky Phil]

post a current pic of your engine bay/ ecu/'s. I want to see whats going on in there.

[Shelby]

Shelby, I'm a bit confused...

 

Is the caravan ignitor and the pickup the same thing? It looks like it is one unit and if so that sounds VERY simple. If it is what I think it is, then the ignitor/pickup is the same thing and you just go from that unit to the ignition coil for both power and ground. And because of the fact that the signal wire from the dizzy pickup goes directly to the ign coil, you would be picking up the IGN signal from the - terminal on the ign coil. Right?

 

the caravan ign modual is the igniter it is install'd inside the dist and hooks up to the quest pick up, the plastic bridge piece you remove is nothing but a terminal holder , the internal igniter provides the pick up signal voltage , and that triggers the igniter to pulse the coil neg ,,the coil posi terminal provides the caravan igniter with the full 12 volts for it to operate, thats the only thing it needs other then a good internal ground , the ign pulse signal goes directly to the coil neg terminal , it's true you loose the oem knock box's ability to detect knock and retard the timeing , but that funtion requires the oem ecu also to be working

 

note if your going to be useing the MS for timeing you will have to relocate the TDC point to aprox 70btdc and disable the mechanical advance system , but that can be done later after the system is up and runing

 

the advance'd TDC timeing point is not static it can be any thing higher then max timeing advance signal,, but the more time the ecu has to correct the timeing the better it can funtion , so any thing from say 50 btdc to 90 btdc can be use'd as long as the software is adjust'd for that amount of advance,, base timeing is retard'd with in the software to the base 10 btdc but that number and the actual timeing with timeing light MUST match

 

another thing the ign signal wire from coil to the ecu needs to be a shield'd wire,, and not bundle'd in the same harness as the inj signal wires, if they are efi can cause false signals to the ecu for the ign signal , efi from the injs pulseing can be very strong

[polarisman14]

Phinko,

 

The original setup when I got the car was for fuel only. I am now running a MS V3.0 with TunerStudio and the MS V3.11 firmware, with ignition control. Scott had modded the MS board with a pullup resistor and whatever else is necessary to control the ignition, but he did so utilizing the stock ignitor in the car which he modified as well. I'll see if he will say specifically what he did but I understand if that's a trade secret.

 

Shelby, thanks again for dropping some knowledge...When I'm not at work I'll read through it again.

[Metric-man]

 

 

As a side note, does anyone know where in the electrical manual I can find the wiring diagram for the knock sensor? I'm not sure if this is the same in all cases, but my Focus just basically had a piezo system to pick up on otherwise inaudible knock. I believe there are 2 or 3 wires for the knock sensor, I need to find out which one is power, which one is ground (or if it's just grounded to the block when it's screwed in) and which one the signal is. That way I can power it externally (maybe with the MS fuel pump relay or something) and set up everything the way I had it on my Focus. Otherwise the knock sensor doesn't influence timing at all and there's no way for the ECU to compensate anymore since it's not in the picture, so my ears have to do the monitoring.

 

Read

 

Chapter 14 page 6

(Speed sensor ignition coil negative terminal voltage sensor.)

 

The ignition coil negative terminal voltage makes a sudden increase twice per engine revolution

synchronously with ignition timing

By sensing this ignition coil negitive terminal voltage change and measure the time between peak voltages,

the ECU computes the engine speed, judges the engine operating mode and controls the air fuel ratio and idle speed.

 

 

Chapter 8 page 162, Verse 2 (Thou shall not connect the Tachometer in reverse.)

 

Chapter 8 page 307 ETACS vehicle speed sensor circuit

 

 

The diagram that it posted by NotStock88 is good except the coil wiring is not regarded.

 

Negative coil terminal is the piece your missing, how ever you have the stock and MS with the CR125

wired.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Metric-man

[psu_Crash]

A friend and coworker of my father is an electrical engineer and wrenches on cars in his free time. He's very handy with an oscilloscope and owns one so I'll be in touch with him to continue the troubleshooting process if need be.

 

That's exactly what you need! I was going to ask if you had access to one because with this kind of issue they are absolutely worth their weight in gold. Get the scope on it and start at the dizzy. Work your way back to MS and I'm sure you'll find where the signal drops out.

[scott87star]

This thread is confusing me now! I don't even know where to start but here goes: the ignitor he's got is no longer stock, just there to hold the ignition transistor running the coil using the factory wiring between the distributor, ignitor and coil. Signals to and from the ECU which consist of the ignition pickup from the dizzy (aftermarket cr125) and the coil control from the ECU to the ignition transistor are through the new MS wire harness. The tach isn't bouncing because MS isn't even trying to control spark because its got no ignition signal or rpm signal. I had the whole thing, dizzy/ecu/modded ignitor/MS wire harness sitting on my bench and spinning the dizzy by hand I was getting a fine rpm signal so I know it all works together and SHOULDN'T need a tach adapter but putting one in line between +12V switched power and the cr125 output wouldn't hurt anything. The dizzy has its advances locked out so he's good there.

 

All his non running problems revolve around the lack of rpm signal, originally when he was trying fuel only and now with the complete set up. He had spark in fuel only because he was using a stock ignitor/distributor/pickup. If the car were in my hands I'd have a scope on the cr125 output while cranking looking for the square wave signal indicating rpm. If its not there it would be either held steady high (5 V or so) or steady low (0 V). Steady high means the cr125 is not doing its thing, it would be bad. Steady low and I'd check the +12V to the module while cranking and if that is good check the wiring in between the module and your scope point for a short or other issue. Attaching a tach adapter changes only the voltages listed, steady high would be more or less 12 Volts.

 

Scott

[Shelby]

Scott thats about the same thing i came up with,,, as for the tach adaptor the only reason you need one with an MSD unit is because the MSD does a multi trigger pulse fireing to fire the coil and that signal confuses the ecu ,the adaptor cleans that up to a singal pulse the ecu can see

 

some day when you have two or three days to spare down load and read the MSD manual (not you Scott)

[Metric-man]

Tach adapter changes the square voltage patttern to a sine wave not just the voltage.

 

 

http://oi55.tinypic.com/6rt1lh.jpg

Edited August 23, 2011 by Metric-man

[polarisman14]

CR125 output--does this mean the wire that is coming into the top left input on the dizzy or the other one (bottom right)? The one on the top left is the one getting 12v when cranking and when the key is on. I think the wire colors are yellow/blk for the top and wht/blk for the bottom, in and out of the CR125 pickup.

[Shelby]

you could ask Jimmy, his truck has a caravan pig tail from dist to coil

 

my pig tail had a short and a long wire for internal connections , and the coil terminals were diff size as were the coil terminals,,the wires only fit one terminal

[Metric-man]

I don't know if you have already read these, the first link is for version II but is useful for the types of distributors, their pickups, and signals.

 

http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm

 

 

This is for MS3 and distributor based systems.

 

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/distributor.html

[Funky Phil]

I know, the thing is I have an ignition signal voltage that's between 0-5v (1.4 key crap on, 1.65 key cranking). The issue is that it isn't oscillating

 

What will it kick if you manually turn it with key to "on"? pull dizzy and spin by hand

 

The only other thing that seems logical is the CR125 took a somehow and he needs to replace it. All of the CR125's I've tested that are not genuine Mistubishi parts put out a very weak 0.65 V square wave signal. Matt's only put out 0.35 V, it is possible it was dying. The genuine Mistubishi modules put out a 5 V square wave.

 

Scott

 

 

EDIT: And yes I'm positive I have voltage at the coil (small joke ). 12.52v when the key is in the on position which is the same voltage the battery terminals measure across.

 

But what is your voltage when cranking, at coil and dizzy?

[polarisman14]

^^Will update that tonight.

[Shelby]

you do understand the dist houseing MUST be ground'd right for it to operate

for it to make a pulse

 

 

speaking about haveing the dist out and spining by hand

Edited August 24, 2011 by Shelby

[polarisman14]

Is just having it in place on the block sufficient, given that I checked the engine ground and that tested fine? Or is there something extra I should do (ring lug ground??)