Chad Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 There's only one on the passenger side of the car, it's the drain back for the seperator. The dipstick tube is on the driver side, but that's it for the oil pan, unless it's been modified. I wouldn't cap that hose going to the pan, rather put a small filter on it if you have eliminated the stock catch can/seperator, this way there's another place for the pressure to go out, even if it's just a little bit. This port needs to be capped off, the end of it goes below the oil line. If any pressure is there on that port, it will go out in the form of liquid oil trust me, Ive had it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoosierquest Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 This port needs to be capped off, the end of it goes below the oil line. If any pressure thies to gq ouy tht port, it will go out in the form of liquid oil trust me, Ive had it happen. What he said I had the tube come off the bottom of my seperator and it sprayed the guy I was racing with a nice oil mist on his freshly cleaned car. He was not happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstieg Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 What he said I had the tube come off the bottom of my seperator and it sprayed the guy I was racing with a nice oil mist on his freshly cleaned car. He was not happy. He should've been faster and not behind you then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted September 23, 2011 Report Share Posted September 23, 2011 (edited) If you saw it work you'd understand its so simple. There's just too much confusion here and what is observed isn't what you think it is. The engine is a box, it makes pressure they call it "blow by". You seal it up what happens? You let boost leak in, what happens? Boost leaks in usually with NON OEM PCV valves. You suck it out from the PCV valve it won't build up but at the SAME time if the pressure builds it can also go out the back. You seal the PCV valve from boost being present where does the pressure go now? It all flows out the back. What's YOUR goal? Have little enough pressure the dipstick doesn't blow out? Positive pressure is positive pressure no matter how much. My goal is much higher, I want negative pressure in the crankcase ALL the time. There's only ONE way to do this, that hose must be connected back to the turbo inlet, the exhaust pipe or a vacuum pump and you better put something in that line if you should have oil it gets captured because you don't want oil in the intake, the exhaust or the pump unless it was made to be a wet pump. If you care nothing about trying to have vacuum all the time, let it blow out into the air it makes no difference to you your motor won't know it only you will know it and if you keep your filter clean and dry it will flow and it will slowly get dirty and that will cause the pressure to get a little higher and a little higher and eventually it builds up and then the filter gets oily then you are blocking the pressure flow out when the oil gets dirt stuck to it. How long does it take for the filter to get oily and dirty and block the flow? I don't know, maybe a couple months or a couple years or if you have a big engine issue maybe a couple days. You'll never know that filter is hanging in the air and no your dipstick will likely never pop out again how could it if the pressure all blows out the back? Crankcase pressure and intake vacuum. How are these two systems connected and how could one effect the other? There's only ONE way, the intake vacuum is COMBINED with whatever flows through the PCV valve. Assume you have a cam that causes less vacuum, or "higher" pressure than a different cam. Negative 20 is less than negative 16 so negative 16 is HIGHER than negative 20. You combine the intake vacuum with what? You can combine it with positive crankcase pressure but why? Crankcase pressure can be positive or negative depending on how you have this hooked up. How can you cause intake pressure to be lower if you combine it with a pressure source? What? You want to lower intake vaccum by combining it with something that's producing pressure? That doesn't make any sense does it? It takes time to lower the crankcase pressure whether you are sucking on it from both ends or just the PCV valve but in the end it all goes into the intake manifold its just how it gets there. If you want to remove crankcase pressure using only the PCV valve then it will only happen when the throttle plate is closed. Crankcase pressure with the throttle closed means very little. That means you are idling, or coasting in gear and coasting in gear causes the rpms to stay high while the throttle is closed and this is called engine braking. You are causing your car to slow down using the engine. While not paying any attention to intake vacuum, if you measured crankcase pressure when it was being sucked down slowly by the intake manifold sure you'd being to see a negative pressure in the crankcase at IDLE and ONLY at idle and this is only possible when there's a check valve on the other end so no air can enter. Consider your crankcase being sucked down when you are driving as your throttle is lifted and you are engine braking then crack the throttle open what happens? VERY briefly and almost instantly you'll combine that low pressure with the intake vacuum and you might and there's a slim to none chance of it, that it might cause a very slight change in intake vacuum but its gone quick as you can snap your fingers. Remember, you combine a box that you sucked down from the intake using a check valve on the opposite end that would otherwise be a positive pressure source, and you add that to intake vacuum.... What? That's not going to help intake vacuum that just hurts it. Combine crankcase positive pressure with intake vacuum causes intake vacuum to actually INCREASE. Crankcase pressure is always being produced at all rpms and its smallest pressure and volume is at idle and intake vacuum if combined with it can never be greater than intake vacuum because the intake vacuum is the source. Caliber and I'm not trying to be a d*** I am trying to understand what you see and how you intrepret this and what it means. First, sure your engine runs there was never any doubt and there was never any doubt your dipstick never blew out again after you put those check valves in but do they HELP in any way at all? I still say no, not for a turbo engine. Do they work for a non turbo engine? Sure I can see that they would but you might need a vacuum relief valve because if you hook up a suction hose at both ends and a non turbo engine that sucks all the time, sure you'd suck all the oil out of the pan if the seals didn't fail but they likely would. Those check valves do nothing except make sure your PCV valve seals because its acts as a redundant PCV valve and the rear valve does nothing but it does prevent fresh air from entering the crankcase and this is stated on ETs site that crankcase pressure under boost is usually from a leaky PCV valve and that their rear valve isn't necessary. This all now makes sense since the other day you said you have your boost gauge connected down on the HVAC/Cruise port and are measuring the vacuum way down in the bottom of the intake and not at the throttle plate. It would have helped to have known that long ago because two identical engines will show two different readings if you measure from two different places when one is closer to a leak than the other and that leak is the throttle plate. You said that its a better place to measure vacuum well that depends on what position of the throttle plate you care to monitor and once you are used to seeing one set of numbers it really won't matter much but it won't make a difference either EXCEPT when you compare that to another engine especially when they measure it right under the throttle plate as most do. The vacuum is the same no matter where you measure it because that comes from the pistons sucking down and the exhaust valves being close but when its combined with something else higher up and I mean the throttle plate, then as you measure it closer and closer to that leak you'll see a less and less or higher reading on the gauge but the engine is still doing the same thing. There's another leak in the intake and its the PCV valve. Having the least amount of pressure from this port possible to combine with the intake vacuum would be a good thing. How do you get negative pressure in the crankcase while under boost? You have to connect it back to the turbo inlet and use a separator. You can't combine crankcase pressure while under boost from the PCV valve beacuse the valve is shut but at part throttle you can combine negative crankcase pressure with intake vaccum but there's NO WAY you will have vacuum that's lower than the crankcase to combine with the intake vacuum so its only going to matter as the throttle is being closed and boost is gone so the PCV valve can open and that doesn't make any difference at all the fuel is cut when that happens anyway and you are slowing down. You didn't get "more" anything by using check valves, you SAW "more" because you moved the hose lower in the intake closer to the intake valves and as you are cruising and that hose is lower in the intake, it APPEARS you have some benefit from those check valves but you didn't get anything because there was nothing there to get. If the valves are there they were supposed to lower crankcase pressure not intake vacuum and another draw on the intake would take up that volume of intake vacuum and cause overall intake vacuum to then increase not decrease. I suspect you did both changes of moving the reference hose lower and adding in the check valves at the same time. Move the hose back up to the top and it will change then take the rear valve off and there will be no change or it might even be better but its such a small amount a boost gauge can't measure it. Same as you have it now just remove the rear valve and you'll see no change on your boost gauge and if it could measure the change it would be for the better because even that large check valve being there is just a restriction even if its open because its just something else the air has to flow through to get out. Edited September 23, 2011 by Indiana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traps Posted October 5, 2011 Report Share Posted October 5, 2011 wow I'm tired now...that was a lot of reading. So i deleted the oil sep. capped the oil pan return drain and did a draft vent tube off the back valve cover nipple. My dipstick shoots out and piss's oil on my detailed engine. Nice, so i put a grommet fitting on end of dip stick works great but I got ol smokey, now i took off post draft tube and went straight to AHP inlet with new hose but still have not put oil sep on(its being cleaned up) should I just go back to original set up gentlemen by the way my comp test was good. Is this ol smokey from blow by? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 If the tube had air blowing IN to it that would have caused pressure because the blowby couldn't escape. None of these has any effect on how much blowby is there, its how you get rid of it and I think people just don't understand that. Blowby is a fact, its there and you CAN NOT prevent it. The best sealing rings that I've ever heard of are Total Seal and their ends overlap but you must install them exactly the way they were intended to be or they will cause more problems than conventional rings. About ten years ago several people tried and installed them and imo they just put them in then blamed the rings as usual because nobody in here is ever wrong. Most of those people are long gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 If the tube had air blowing IN to it that would have caused pressure because the blowby couldn't escape. None of these has any effect on how much blowby is there, its how you get rid of it and I think people just don't understand that. Blowby is a fact, its there and you CAN NOT prevent it. The best sealing rings that I've ever heard of are Total Seal and their ends overlap but you must install them exactly the way they were intended to be or they will cause more problems than conventional rings. About ten years ago several people tried and installed them and imo they just put them in then blamed the rings as usual because nobody in here is ever wrong. Most of those people are long gone.http://image.mustangandfords.com/f/28558337/mdmp_1009_08_o+piston_and_ring_technology+total_seal_ring.jpg+http://image.mustangandfords.com/f/29911408/mdmp_1009_09_o+piston_and_ring_technology+gas_porting.jpg At least you can make an attempt. This can help also:http://store02.prostores.com/racecraftchassis/catalog/vacuum-pump.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Or if that's not enough, try the Pfeiffer Balzers TPU-1500 Turbo Molecular High Vacuum Pump Rebuilt, 1500 l/s pumping speed. http://www.pchemlabs.com/files/images/Pfe_TPU1500_2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 I actualy got mt TS rings to seal, had them in that motor over twelve years now. I agree, most that failed didn't use them correctly, I used a non-approved [at the time] breakin method, it was very aggessive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 Blowby is necessary to get the rings to seal, combustion pressure is what forces them out to seal. The more efficient the rings are at doing that the less blowby there will be that's why I mentioned Total Seal but I think some think that blowby is from something gone wrong. You just have to decide how you want to get rid of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted October 6, 2011 Report Share Posted October 6, 2011 In my opinion, those with TS ring failures broke them in too passivly, and they just never raelly sealed up for whatever reason. I seem to recall ever faiulre had a "standard" braeak in, consisting of 5oo miles of easy non-boost driving, floowed by another thousand or modest use. I broke them ina few hundred, to be sure the rest of the motor was sound, and then started boosting fully and have never let up. I know this will cost me on the lifespan of the motor, but at the milage I put on this motor per year, it will be decades before that matters. They are perhaps not suited for street use or low boost. The lower ring by nadure as less tension without the high cylinder pressures, as shown in indys picture above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason c Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 well is it normal for when the car is sitting and idling and i pull the oil cap off it blows hard enough out, it feels kinda like if u put your hand over a exhuast pipe , from what i knoe this means the rings are toast , but the motor has been rebuilt with only about 1600 miles on her but i had a head crack and leaked coolant , im just hoping i was able to get it out in time and i didnt ruin the cy walls and rings , i know when i had the head off everything looked to be ok , or maybe the rings havent sealed properly , im still getting smoke out from the exuast , but i know it takes awile to burn out all the coolant and i think my turbo may need rebuilt it has litlle bit side to side play and in and out but i have not ever felt a blown turbo to compare it too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 well is it normal for when the car is sitting and idling and i pull the oil cap off it blows hard enough out, it feels kinda like if u put your hand over a exhuast pipe maybe the rings havent sealed properly im still getting smoke out from the exuast , but i know it takes awile to burn out all the coolant and i think my turbo may need rebuilt it has litlle bit side to side play and in and out but i have not ever felt a blown turbo to compare it too That's normal you feel that air coming out the oil cap and its because of the design of the engine in that the front timing cover is completely open in the front to the crankcase. Most engines you only have a couple little holes that are to let oil drain back and you don't feel that but its there too just muffled better. You are feeling the pulses as the pistons move up and down and combined with the oil that is coming off the rocker arms combined with that little bit of blowby. Your rings seated in the first few minutes the engine was ran after you first started it back up. If you got coolant, soap/water or oil in the exhaust it just takes a few minutes to burn away. Does this engine have an oil separator? OEM PCV valve? Who put the valve seals on? The turbo has some side to side play when its new, the bearings and turbine shaft float in oil and that pressure while its spinning keep it centered. If its bad it will make a screeching sound, not be able to make boost because the shaft can't spin fast enough or leak lots of oil out the rear seal and the car will put out so much smoke you can't see anything behind you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technology Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Any leftover coolant in the cylinders will burn off quickly. If you have smoke lingering, there is a leak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 The turbo wheel will move side to side about 1 mm. It may move in out, but only a very small fraction of 1 mm. A new turbo it won't move in-out at all. You can tell a lot about the smell of the exhaust, sweet, will be antifreeze. if it smells like fuel, it's probalby got a leaking enjector and it runnig too rich. if it smells like burnt oil, that's what it is. White smoke is antifreeze, gray is fuel, and blue is oil. If you just rant the motor up to full temperature and got the catilitic converter nice and hot, the fuel and oil will be less noticable, and it will make steam as a byproduct, this is normal, but should not be visable smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason c Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Yea it has about the same in and out as it has side to side , i have a pretty much new holeset thats going on the car later down the road and it has zero side to side or in and out , as for the smoke im honestly starting to lean on the rich cond , im in process of installing a wideband , and i have changed all the plugs so i can start the process of elimination, i actually had the head repaired because i was not able to locate another one at the time and there had been alot of work and money put into this one, i was very weary about going this rout but after talking to my machiniest he assured me the repair would be top notch and he has yet to have one come back , so a super clean plug will tell me if i still have a crack in the head, i did a comp check and everything seemed good, so im pretty sure my head gasket sealed good i used an adjusa , the wideband will show a rich cond so we will see but really only thing is left , is poss intake gasket/tbi gasket or possability of a crack in the intake , or like u say chad bad injector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 When this thrust surface wears out, there's your front and back shaft play and this part no longer works. As this wears out the hole in the middle gets very sloppy. This is near the center of the shaft and the two bearings are even closer to the center. You move the shaft out on the end and a little wear near the center seems like much more on the end but its really not that much. The middle of that part will spin and vibrate around as its all worn and might even have a square look to it. Just because this part is bad doesn't mean the bearings are shot but they might be scored. Even if you just clean and polish the parts and as long as there's what just appears to be some surface left on the face of that thrust plate your turbo will still work. The smoking comes as the shaft moves too much and the oil gets past the two seals which are just like little piston rings. They are sloppy in the groove like piston rings as far as the depth of the groove but fit in the groove side to side. Burnt up oil builds up around and in the groove then you can't keep it from smoking because the seal just can't work. The seal might still be good but the burnt oil prevents it from sealing. http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM001456.JPG http://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM001402.JPGhttp://www.b2600turbo.com/images/IM001447.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) That's normal you feel that air coming out the oil cap and its because of the design of the engine in that the front timing cover is completely open in the front to the crankcase. Funny, I feel air coming in. It all depends on what kind of Crankcase Ventilation set up you have. I really get tired of members saying that the K.V. system is JUNK. If they have never ran it.....They don't know. Indiana is a smart guy as far as Stock set ups. I feel that he doesn't know as much about aftermarket ones as he tends to comment on. I have ran the K.V. set up for 6 years now. My Oil dip stick and Oil fill cap are closed because of suction. So, no blowing out of the dipstick and no sucking in of Engine seals as some might tend to believe from naysayers. You can take my advice or leave it. I am here to help members out with their problems, so are others. I only give advice from personal experience. So, If a member hasn't ran a K.V. set up.....They can't comment on its success or failure. Also, I just got back from Mesquite 2011 and saw a lot of cars without the Stock Oil Separator and with a Small Oil Breather installed at the rear port on the Valve cover. I ask them if they had oil spraying all over their engine bay...The answer was NO. So, I have the same set up as some of those in Mesquite did. Are we all wrong?????? P.S. We were not ALL drunk, or smoking pot either Bill Edited October 12, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 I have a crank vent that sucks like a cheap ho at idle, and i'ts very difficult to remove the oil fil cap, but the dipstick still pops out at high boost. And no, I'm not burning any oil, don't have loose rings, and I have great compression. KV's work great at idle, but kind of margional on boost. I'm considering removing them for a different setup {one that will be unique}. I don't hate my crank vents, but they aren't doign what they were supposed to do for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliber308 Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 (edited) I have a crank vent that sucks like a cheap ho at idle, and i'ts very difficult to remove the oil fil cap, but the dipstick still pops out at high boost. And no, I'm not burning any oil, don't have loose rings, and I have great compression. KV's work great at idle, but kind of margional on boost. I'm considering removing them for a different setup {one that will be unique}. I don't hate my crank vents, but they aren't doign what they were supposed to do for me.I have a crank vent that sucks like a cheap ho at idle, and i'ts very difficult to remove the oil fil cap, but the dipstick still pops out at high boost. And no, I'm not burning any oil, don't have loose rings, and I have great compression. KV's work great at idle, but kind of margional on boost. I'm considering removing them for a different setup {one that will be unique}. I don't hate my crank vents, but they aren't doign what they were supposed to do for me. Sorry that they don't work for your set up. Chad. We have now had Two meets that are close enough for you to attend. We don't bite Maybe by the time next years meet happens we will get the chance to meet you in person. I personally am looking forward to it, as i'm sure others are too. Perhaps you could donate one of your custom headers to the meet as so the members could see how they are supposed to be made Looking forward to seeing you in Mesquite or Lake Tahoe next year. Bill Edited October 12, 2011 by Caliber308 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted October 12, 2011 Report Share Posted October 12, 2011 Yah, I was going to try to attend this year, but since my accident I can't travel very far, and that's way too far. Perhaps by then I'll be healed up enough to make it. I won't say it doesn't work, just that it doesn't create a vacuum in the whole motor. The dipstick is in the bottom of the motor, perhaps pressure waves are getting trapped in the bottom of the motors, creating the dipstick pop out issues for many of us. I've never seen any evidence that the rear KV has ever flowed any volume of air, there has never been any oily film in the hose I have on the discharge, which goes into a JAZ catch can. I had a simple breather filter on that port prior, I say no loss or gain by installing the KV on boost, but I do like the vacuum it has at idle. I also have a really big turbo, and rev the piss out of it sometimes, so those too are factors. On a smallish turbo at stockish redlien engine speeds, the rear KV may actualy work well, I don't know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 I have the Krankvents, I have both sets. I have the old rounded end ones with the threaded barbs and the pretty new ones with the ends pressed in which do you want me to talk about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason c Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 well guys theres no need to go back and forth on issues , i honesty appreciate all of your guys knowledge and opions , but the **** fights come on, and chad im glad your back with us and have been active in the threads , if it wasent from this site and a few others i would of been lost with these cars , ive built many older hot rods ect , but ive always luved the quest after the first time i seen one and read up on them i was very impressed and i honestly like cars that u dont see much , so i went out looking for one and being the first turbo car i knew it would challenge me in ways im not use to and learn from , soon after i found the quest i bought a 2nd turbo car a sweet 87 grand nat , but im a true mopar guy but these 2 cars i enjoy just as much , sorry to get off the subject lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason c Posted October 13, 2011 Report Share Posted October 13, 2011 well today i went out and started the quest again and when i first go to start it , it turns over several times before she fires and it smokes a little at first but then when it seems to warm up is when it really smokes , so still not sure what im up against , to me since its kinda hard to start it may be rich and dumping to much fuel but then how it smokes worse after warm up , i think thats when the thermostat opens and pushing coolant throught the motor, or maybe oil is getting warm and getting past seals in turbo , but tom i should have wideband in so ill just go from there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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