Adjustable fuel pressure reg

[Caliber308]

Indeed, there are options, I offered another one, and you want to take it away from me cause its not on your list, then you call it BS, thinking I have no basis from experiance

 

Not once did I take anything away from you, I merely said "just because it "works", doesn't make it "right". Few of us do it right. Lighten up man, go smoke a bowl or drink a brew or something.

 

You want info on the RC's, "PM me and I'll tell you my secret".

 

When you stop trying to discredit me every time I post a response to a question...I will lighten up. If something "WORKS" on a car (Delphi Injectors), and has for 3 years... it seems "RIGHT" to me. Whether you agree with it or not. You don't own it,do all the upkeep and aftermarket installations on it, nor do you drive it

 

Bill

Edited June 28, 2011 by Caliber308

[Indiana]

so i just got back from test drive....i substituted the piezo transducer ( $2 - Radio Shack # 273-0073 ) for my possible bad unit since i dont have a spare, i have not sputter at all !...i have my wastegate set to 7.5psi and i can burst all the way to it no problem ( afraid to hold it there without knock sensor working )...also the seat of the pants really seems to have come alive...i need to test for a bit to be sure it stays good....but i really need some confirmation on the interaction of knock sensor and ignitor timing retardation ..... i dont think it affects base timing, and u would only see it under load....alot of people could have bad knock sensors and think their ride is just sluggish...

 

eric

The knock sensor isn't supposed to effect the ignitor at idle if its working because your engine wouldn't ever be knocking at idle. The test for the knock sensor to see if its working or not is to just unplug it at idle and you'll see the timing change 8 degrees. Yours may be coming and going. When the ignitor sees the sensor as connected it jumps timing back up then its too high so when you are under boost and mechanical advance it knocks and the ignitor doesn't know it or it misfires or detonates and if your vac. adv. isn't working either this is when you can have severe engine damage. The vac. adv. timing retard +the knock sensor safety limits amounts to about 16 degrees of timing. If your sensor was coming and going under boost and this bucking causes shock waves of pressure in your reference hose to the vac. adv. unit and its not going to be able to stablize itself quickly. If you look at your knock sensor does it look like all the goo has run out? You can fill it back up with RTV and it will still work but what happens usually is the wire is broken at the connector on the pigtail from the knock sensor. Its hidden by that flexible tube that's covering it to protect it from the manifold heat and the inner wrapping and the grounding shield keeps the plug from falling off but the actual sensor wire may be broken or about to or has intermittent contact causing this problem. If its bad and you think your ignitor is bad one thing that's done is a change to a new ignition system such as an MSD box. You can use one of two tach adapters one will let you retain the ignitor and knock sensor and the other one you can ditch both of them. Its less money to change to this MSD system than buy a new ignitor but you lose your knock sensor so be warned. You can hear detonation if your exhaust and radio isn't too loud.

[Indiana]

Hey Caliber

 

The OP said he "fixed" it. What did he do? He had his injectors in backwards or plugged in backwards and what difference does that make? Its the SPRAY angle. I said that spray angle matters and again you said that there must be many ignorant people in here because they work for you but you didn't get the point, again. If you do not know about something by definition that makes you IGNORANT. I did not say STUPID. Yes there are plenty of IGNORANT people in here including me. There's plenty of things I do not know about. If you asked me to setup an LSD pack I'd have to look at the FSM I've never did that and that makes ME IGNORANT. Do you see where I'm going with this now?

 

You also haven't mentioned to this person some other things that also make a difference when you use non stock items like cams,spark plugs, injectors, fuel pressure regulators, MAFT, heated 02s sensors and a non stock ignition box and doesn't it also have multiple sparks per ignition event that fade as rpms increase? I didn't see you mention that to the OP that for all you know has an otherwise stock setup and just installed those injectors and they didn't work for him. Why did you turn this into your issues? If you would have said all those things so he would have known it wouldn't have been a big deal. Nobody thinks you have a car that won't run but you make things seem so black and white and its not that simple for all you know he has a bent valve or a torn intercooler hose he hasn't found yet. Point is that you are not flexible and you jump to conclusions when there's no reason to but you HAVE to tell people when you say "works for me" what your setup is or it usually won't work for THEM.

 

 

 

 

[Chad]

Indeed:

 

Maybe you don't know how to set up a car with the Delphi Injectors to Idle and run at Cruise fine... I DO

 

Here's a tip to help members with a Throttle Bodied car that might not be Idling correctly or hesitating on cruise. Install a MAF-Translator set up

 

Seems that to make them work well, you one needs a MAF-T ($250) and an AEM UEGO ($250). That's starting to sound complicated and expensive. Deffinatly more than new correct injetors.

[quest4me2]

indiana,

 

if the manual states that a failed knock sensor doesnt affect base timing, why would i see a change in timing if i plugged in, then unplugged a known good sensor ?

 

eric

[Indiana]

Pin 61 at the ECU will have a 5V signal from the knock sensor at idle. If you rev up quickly, or bang on the engine that will change the voltage to, as the ECI checker chart shows to be, 0v-.6V and depending on how much or quick the voltage changes its the Ignitor that changes timing from the signal given by the ECU not that your timing ends up being changed just from banging on the engine. If there's no signal at all it reverts to a safe mode which assumed it WAS working when you set your base timing. If its not working and you didn't know it and set your base timing that's a bad thing should it work at all while you are driving and it causes timing to jump back up should it briefly work or broken wires connect from vibrations or movements of the harness and you aren't aware of this.

 

If you unplug it will at idle and your timing light doesn't move then your base timing was already retarded from being set in that fail safe mode but you didn't know about that and set it to 10btdc anyway so if you plug or unplug it you'll see no change.

 

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/262121_1432204743304_1778479606_685719_1277947_n.jpg

 

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270730_1432203743279_1778479606_685718_3701448_n.jpg

 

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/265079_1432202983260_1778479606_685717_2577417_n.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[quest4me2]

Indiana,

 

somewhere in the manual it states base timing is not affected...the pages you show dont state that...ill look when i get home from work.....

 

it seems wrong to put in a detonation sensor , and then design it to retard base timing if the sensor fails....some poor slob like me comes along and dont know and set timing to 10 BTDC and then one day sensor starts working or is replaced for some reason, and waalaaa, detonation....

 

a safety feature designed this way could actually cause a blown engine...

 

i appreciate all your time discussing this, thanks...

 

eric

[quest4me2]

Indiana,

 

page 14-10 in the manual under "igniter", it talks about the fail-safe except at idle.

 

eric

[Caliber308]

Indeed:

 

 

 

 

 

Seems that to make them work well, you one needs a MAF-T ($250) and an AEM UEGO ($250). That's starting to sound complicated and expensive. Deffinatly more than new correct injetors.

Chad, Your math is incorrect

 

"Correct" Mitsubishi Primary and Secondary (from http://www.ricartmitsubishi.com ) Total, $860.00. A MAF-Translator, appox $260.00. A AEM UEGO Wideband, appox $200.00. A set of Delphi Starion Injectors from http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com Appox $220.00. That comes out to $680.00 dollars. A hell of a lot cheaper than just a Stock Primary/Secondary set from Mitsu. for $860.00 that you say: "Is the right way to do things". And here is the best part: You get to read your A/F Ratios with the UEGO, and have a way to adjust your Air/Fuel Ratios with the MAF-Translator. I have dealt with the Stock MAS,1st Gen.MAS and the MAF-Translator set ups.For my money, and less headaches on a Throttle Body car, The MAF-Translator is the way to go.The Stock and 1st gen. set ups don't even compare.They just don't have the capability that the MAF-T does. If you want the ability to adjust the A/F Ratios, Yes, even with the Delphis or Stock injectors..Go MAF-T. I don't make this stuff up, it is from experience.Chad, I still see that you haven't posted a website or part numbers for the RC Engineering Injectors???

 

Bill

Edited June 29, 2011 by Caliber308

[Caliber308]

Hey Caliber

 

The OP said he "fixed" it. What did he do? He had his injectors in backwards or plugged in backwards and what difference does that make? Its the SPRAY angle. I said that spray angle matters and again you said that there must be many ignorant people in here because they work for you but you didn't get the point, again. If you do not know about something by definition that makes you IGNORANT. I did not say STUPID. Yes there are plenty of IGNORANT people in here including me. There's plenty of things I do not know about. If you asked me to setup an LSD pack I'd have to look at the FSM I've never did that and that makes ME IGNORANT. Do you see where I'm going with this now?

 

You also haven't mentioned to this person some other things that also make a difference when you use non stock items like cams,spark plugs, injectors, fuel pressure regulators, MAFT, heated 02s sensors and a non stock ignition box and doesn't it also have multiple sparks per ignition event that fade as rpms increase? I didn't see you mention that to the OP that for all you know has an otherwise stock setup and just installed those injectors and they didn't work for him. Why did you turn this into your issues? If you would have said all those things so he would have known it wouldn't have been a big deal. Nobody thinks you have a car that won't run but you make things seem so black and white and its not that simple for all you know he has a bent valve or a torn intercooler hose he hasn't found yet. Point is that you are not flexible and you jump to conclusions when there's no reason to but you HAVE to tell people when you say "works for me" what your setup is or it usually won't work for THEM.

 

Perhaps I do jump to conclusions sometimes. But when I read things like you say: "The aftermarket Injectors are the "incorrect" spray pattern, you should use the Stock ones", or this: You have to use NGKBUR7s or your car isn't going to run correctly. I take issue with those statements because my car does run correctly with the Delphis and NGKBPR7s.If it didn't, I would tell the membership that also. Indy, If the parts: (Delphi Injectors and NGKBPR7 Spark Plugs) that I run in my car don't work....Then why does it run so good? And why am I not posting for your help or others in the VM and AVM Forums, instead of giving advice on what has worked for me? I don't know it all, and never claimed to.But I do know what works for my set up and will continue to pass that information on to the membership.Indy, my set up is in my signature, it is not that hard to find.All that the members seeking help need to do after read my responses for help, is to turn due south to read my set up

 

 

Bill

Edited June 29, 2011 by Caliber308

[Indiana]

Put the plugs in your engine and see the difference for yourself. They will make YOUR engine run better right now in every way right out of the box and leave the gap at .044" too. How about YOU find out the reason why I say to use them. You quote the FSM all the time and they are listed as the correct plug why do you disagree? How do you know until you try? What happened before you got that MAFT and had that Bosch FPR? Sucked didn't it? Why? Because the plugs misfired didn't they? Fouled them out didn't it? You couldn't stand it any longer and got the MAFT to attempt to remove the over rich conditions but you still had to get a heated 02 because the idle sucked. All these conditions were from a poor quality air fuel ratio that had wide swings you couldn't control so you've did what you could to over come that issue and all the time the spark plug was subjected to this. If the plugs you were using had been the CORRECT plugs you might not have had so many headaches. The plugs you are using are for ordinary automobiles there is not one thing special about them over a POS Champion plug sold at Walmart. Cheap and common.

 

 

The DESIGN of the BUR7EA plug is semi surface discharge THIS is the difference.

 

 

Stays clean under EXTREME conditions

http://www.ngksparkp...ugs/surface.asp

 

 

Described as the "Ultimate" plug design

http://www.ngksparkp...ing_catalog.pdf

 

Less sensitive to voltage requirements

http://www.ngk.com/s...ischarge&mfid=1

 

Now why whether the "works for me" or not would you not want to use those plugs? Spite? Because I say to use them? The QUACK and his pyschotic babble said they are extremely COLD but he is a moron he had NO CLUE what they even were just like you he jumped on anything I said because it takes away from his light and he always wants to be in the light. He will be in the light when he is burning IN HELL.

 

 

Semi-surface discharge type

 

http://www.ngkspark.com.au/images/sparkplug_001.jpg

 

http://www.ngkspark.com.au/images/sparkplug_002.jpg

 

The wide gap of semi-surface discharge type improves ignition capability and is less sensitive to voltage requirement increases due to gap growth. Semi-surface discharge plugs burn away the carbon on the insulator nose to suppress a decline of insulator resistance.

Edited June 29, 2011 by Indiana

[Caliber308]

Put the plugs in your engine and see the difference for yourself. They will make YOUR engine run better right now in every way right out of the box and leave the gap at .044" too. How about YOU find out the reason why I say to use them. You quote the FSM all the time and they are listed as the correct plug why do you disagree? How do you know until you try? What happened before you got that MAFT and had that Bosch FPR? Sucked didn't it? Why? Because the plugs misfired didn't they? Fouled them out didn't it? You couldn't stand it any longer and got the MAFT to attempt to remove the over rich conditions but you still had to get a heated 02 because the idle sucked. All these conditions were from a poor quality air fuel ratio that had wide swings you couldn't control so you've did what you could to over come that issue and all the time the spark plug was subjected to this. If the plugs you were using had been the CORRECT plugs you might not have had so many headaches. The plugs you are using are for ordinary automobiles there is not one thing special about them over a POS Champion plug sold at Walmart. Cheap and common.

 

 

The DESIGN of the BUR7EA plug is semi surface discharge THIS is the difference.

 

 

Stays clean under EXTREME conditions

http://www.ngksparkp...ugs/surface.asp

 

 

Described as the "Ultimate" plug design

http://www.ngksparkp...ing_catalog.pdf

 

Less sensitive to voltage requirements

http://www.ngk.com/s...ischarge&mfid=1

 

Now why whether the "works for me" or not would you not want to use those plugs? Spite? Because I say to use them? The QUACK and his pyschotic babble said they are extremely COLD but he is a moron he had NO CLUE what they even were just like you he jumped on anything I said because it takes away from his light and he always wants to be in the light. He will be in the light when he is burning IN HELL.

 

 

Semi-surface discharge type

 

http://www.ngkspark.com.au/images/sparkplug_001.jpg

 

http://www.ngkspark.com.au/images/sparkplug_002.jpg

 

The wide gap of semi-surface discharge type improves ignition capability and is less sensitive to voltage requirement increases due to gap growth. Semi-surface discharge plugs burn away the carbon on the insulator nose to suppress a decline of insulator resistance.

 

Indy, Before you go calling someone a "QUACK", Try to come up with a manual that has helped hundreds, if not thousands of Starquest owners in doing repairs or upgrades on their cars, myself included. I would take his advice anytime and have in the past with excellent results. Now, who is being ignorant My 1987 FSM calls for three different Spark Plugs that were Factory Installed . But, How many of our cars are Stock from the factory? And how many of our cars that have been modded use the Factory Jet Valve Cylinder Head? I use what works best for my set up. Maybe you have a stock 88/89 with the Jet Valve Cylinder Head that calls for the NGKBUR7s or two other Factory installed Spark Plugs. Indy, I use the Spark Plug that works for my car. You can't make a blanket statement that says that NGKBUR7s work best, or were installed from the Factory on every Starquest.Just to prove a point that you must have missed. There were three different Spark Plugs that were Factory installed in the 1987s:

 

1987 Starion FSM Volume no.2. Page 8-151:

 

Nippon Denso W20EP-U10

Nippon Denso W20EPR-S11

NGKBUR6EA-11

 

Now if you want to post that page from the 88 or 89 FSM that shows that the only Factory Installed Spark Plug was the: NGKBUR7, I'll believe it, but only for the 88/89 model years.

 

 

Bill

Edited June 29, 2011 by Caliber308

[Chad]

First it was:

 

Delphis work fine if you buy them machined for our Throttle Body. And at appox. $220.00 a set for the 650/850 combination

 

 

Now it's

 

A MAF-Translator, appox $260.00. A AEM UEGO Wideband, appox $200.00. A set of Delphi Starion Injectors from http://www.fuelinjectorconnection.com Appox $220.00. That comes out to $680.00 dollars.

 

So is it $220 or $680 to get them to "run right"? That is the basis for our "issue" with your option.

 

You got them to work the way you want, great, awesome! Way to go . Just don't say it's "right" when it needs to be "tuned" with an additional $460 in parts.

 

If you want to say it's "right", don't forget to mention all the extra steps, $$$, and parts that are needed to do so. Failing to do so and crying "foul" when people correct you isn't the help people here need. You are here to help, and so are the rest of us. It might not feel like help to you, but it is. Now we all know what it takes to make the Delphis work correctly.

 

The MAFT didn't exist when I had my domestic inejctors, and a mobile UEGO sensor was about $700 so all I could do was play with fuel pressure and MAS adjustments, and tune with a narrow band O2 sensor. That didn't really work the way I wanted, so I upgraded to a better system (MPI).

[Caliber308]

First it was:

 

 

 

 

Now it's

 

 

 

So is it $220 or $680 to get them to "run right"? That is the basis for our "issue" with your option.

 

You got them to work the way you want, great, awesome! Way to go . Just don't say it's "right" when it needs to be "tuned" with an additional $460 in parts.

 

If you want to say it's "right", don't forget to mention all the extra steps, $$$, and parts that are needed to do so. Failing to do so and crying "foul" when people correct you isn't the help people here need. You are here to help, and so are the rest of us. It might not feel like help to you, but it is. Now we all know what it takes to make the Delphis work correctly.

 

The MAFT didn't exist when I had my domestic inejctors, and a mobile UEGO sensor was about $700 so all I could do was play with fuel pressure and MAS adjustments, and tune with a narrow band O2 sensor. That didn't really work the way I wanted, so I upgraded to a better system (MPI).

 

If members have the money, MPI is the way to go. Well, maybe not. If I was younger i'd install a 1UZ V-8 (Lexus V-8) after riding in Randys car at Mesquite. Chad, this might be a let down for you...No cars that attended Mesquite 2010 had MPI set ups. So, is Throttle Body knowledge much more important than MPI??? P.S. More members attended Mesquite in 2010 than Branson in 2011. Even with the Stock Mitsu. injectors installed there is no way to adjust the A/F Ratios or read them. The advice I give is also from trial and error, so maybe we are both correct. You say Stock Mitsu. injectors are the correct way to do things. I say, you can accomplish the same thing with the Delphis at a much cheaper price. But either way you cut it, you will still not have the ability to read or adjust your A/F Ratios, and some members with modifications, (and there are a lot of them) need those two things.You know as well as I do that once you change this, you will most likely have to change that. With the Wideband, MAF-Translator and a decent set of injectors you can at the least, have control as to your Air/Fuel ratios.I read posts all the time that state: "My Stock mas, or 1st Gen Mas is running super rich" Mine did too on the Stock Mitsu. Injectors. (Delphis were installed after the installation of the MAF-T and Wideband). And with those two systems (as you know well) there is no way to adjust the A/F Ratios. Thus my suggesting the MAF-T set up and Wideband UEGO.After installing those two systems....Injectors are a mute point only if they are in good working order.Chad, we are still waiting for the information about the website and part numbers for the RC Engineering drop in Fuel Injectors for a Starquest Also, This is not a: "I am right, and everyone else is wrong" post. I just posted what has worked, or not worked for me on different Mass Air Flow systems. And I disagreed with others who stated that Stock Mitsu. Injectors were the only way to go.Also, Just to set the record straight. I do not give information on something that I personally have not installed on my car, nor do I knowingly give members seeking help misinformation. I do this to try and help others like I have been helped. If you disagree with my responses that is fine, as I have disagreed with experienced members also. There are many other experienced members who can try to help you.I don't do this for money or fame. I was doing fine prior to joining this website, and I will do fine after leaving it someday.And that might be sooner than later. Due to the fact that a couple of experienced members just can't seem to leave me alone in my responses to posting help. I give the best advice possible with my knowledge. But, some members seem to follow my responses around and continually try to discredit me..... Chad (among others) is one of them. He only seems to appear on the VM/AVM/and B.S. Forums after I post a response to a question or have a comment. I have had just about enough of that.If I was giving bad advice, I would expect it. I feel i'm not. I don't see this kind of thing going on at other Starquest sites?

 

Bill

Edited June 29, 2011 by Caliber308

[quest4me2]

so....does disconnecting knock sensor retard base timing?....i contend it shouldnt....

 

i know i have covered alot in this thread, but i will have an end to this ....im not just rambling,

 

eric

[Indiana]

so....does disconnecting knock sensor retard base timing?....i contend it shouldnt....

 

i know i have covered alot in this thread, but i will have an end to this ....im not just rambling, http://www.starquestclub.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

eric

Yes

 

 

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/265079_1432202983260_1778479606_685717_2577417_n.jpg

[quest4me2]

Indiana,

 

in a previous reply above u will see where the FSM states it doesnt (page 14-10 FSM)....have u actually done this and seen the timing retard?...i do value your knowledge, im not being a hard@#$ i promise!...

 

just take a look at that and ill shut up!

 

 

 

eric

Edited June 29, 2011 by quest4me2

[Indiana]

My knock sensors work but I'll go try one later today and let you know.

[quest4me2]

Awesome!

 

thanks Indy.....ill then move on....

 

eric

[Caliber308]

so....does disconnecting knock sensor retard base timing?....i contend it shouldnt....

 

i know i have covered alot in this thread, but i will have an end to this ....im not just rambling,

 

eric

 

It is not "RAMBLING" if you read the entire thread. I have learned something from it, and if you read it all, you should have too.DON'T DISCONNECT THE KNOCK SENSOR..period.

To answer your question, because you feel that you didn't get the proper answer that you were seeking, or because you haven't purchased or downloaded the FSM. Page 8-157 in the 1987 Starion FSM, Volume no.2. "The ECI igniter retards ignition timing according to the signal from the detonation sensor based on the detonation limiter signal indicating whether or not the vehicle is in the detonation control region coming from the ECI Control unit". So, you tell me if disconnecting the Knock/ Detonation sensor (same thing) will still create a signal to the Igniter thus retarding the timing??? You are correct, but you should still do some research in the Factory Service Manuals prior to giving a opinion.That way you don't have to contend, you will know it to be a fact When you presume or contend things on these cars...That is where you get into trouble, especially with certain members

 

 

 

Bill

Edited June 29, 2011 by Caliber308

[quest4me2]

308,

 

i do have the FSM...i have seen everything you guys are stating...did you see where i ask about page 14-10 of the manual?....what are they telling me under the "igniter" section about base idle?.....when i disconnect my knock sensor, i get no change.....

 

again, what about page 14-10?

 

eric

[StarquestRescue]

Yes

 

 

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/265079_1432202983260_1778479606_685717_2577417_n.jpg

On page 14-51, "step 2 says disconnect the air flow sensor connector and start the engine, running it at idle." i have not tried it, some cars may not idle well or at all with the air flow sensor disconnected.

 

I have pin 61 wired to a data logger on my stock 87, the signal seems to change status based on the air flow hz.

[quest4me2]

so by disconnecting the AFM, the car doesnt know its idling and will then retard the base timing...i see! but without doing that step, it wont retard.....i think i got it...i will try that....so im kinda right!

 

eric

[quest4me2]

my car wont idle with the afm disconnected (step 2).....wow, one thing leads to another....

 

 

eric

[StarquestRescue]

It did seem your car responded to the honda trick. so maybe try some used knock sensors. I never see them for sale, so you could probably get some for not much more than shipping cost.