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Techboy's 88 Starion SHP Save ....


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#721 Turbo Cary

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Posted 04 November 2020 - 12:14 PM

Well just remember that even testing a wire, if there is 1 strand that is good you can still see low resistance. Try load testing the wires. Connect a high impedance test lamp at the ECT sensor and put power through the ECU side (with ECU disconnected) to see if those wires can carry a load.

That should tell you if the circuit is good. You can also open up the ECU and inspect the board. Check where the pins at the female connector go into the board to make sure theres no corrosion.

How are all the grounds? Definitely 100 percent good?

Edited by Turbo Cary, 04 November 2020 - 12:18 PM.






#722 techboy

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Posted 04 November 2020 - 10:54 PM

Well, I was planning to make a separate thread about all this rich issue w/ my car, but I guess here as good as a place as any to have a discussion. :P

Here's what happened today after work:

First, I took an ohm reading of the newest installed CTS stone cold.  I got a reading of 3,440 ohms. It was about 60 degrees here today.
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I drove the car about 20 minutes around town to get everything up to temperature.  Half way through the drive, I pulled over and disconnected the CTS completely.  Car drove exactly the same without the CTS plugged in.  When I got back, I took an ohm reading hot.  I got 182 ohms.  A bit low, compared to what the FSM calls for but should definitely put the ECU in open loop.

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Next, I whipped up this little guy with a 270 ohm resistor.

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Inserted it into the wiring harness and took an ohm reading.  I got 265, which is what is should read roughly.

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Drove the car, once again, no change.  Same AFR readings.  Still super rich.  Here's a shot of the car at a traffic light at idle.  195 OEM thermostat - temp is reading about 200, vacuum is spot on, oil pressure good at idle, AFR way off.

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So, I guess I need to do some further testing on the CTS wiring itself, and take a peek at the ECU as Cary suggested above.  Before, I do any of that though, I'm going to figure out a way to recirc the BOV just to eliminate that from the equation.
1988 Starion ESi-R ... crushed by a tree 10/31/11 - back from the dead 8/2016
1988 Conquest TSi ... current driver - sold to Bigjoe 6/2016
1987 Conquest Flatty ... F/S thread - sold 8/2014
1987 Conquest TSi ... parts car - sold to Coldscrip 12/2011
1999 Eclipse 4G63 ... heavily modified.
Feeback Thread | Motor rebuild thread | Restoration thread

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#723 pcristquester

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Posted 05 November 2020 - 11:51 AM

Do you have a stock OVCP to put back on, before going through the trouble of recirculating the BOV?
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#724 techboy

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Posted 05 November 2020 - 02:29 PM

View Postpcristquester, on 05 November 2020 - 11:51 AM, said:

Do you have a stock OVCP to put back on, before going through the trouble of recirculating the BOV?

Interesting that you bring that up.  I actually had same thought last night as I was trying to fall asleep.  I have a large bin up in my attic with all the OEM parts that I didn't use from this car from when I restored it.  The car was in a million pieces when I got it, but I think there might have been an OEM OVCP in there somewhere.  At least I hope so.

Question:  If I find one, should I just cap the vac line that runs from the TB to the BOV or does that hook to the OVCP?
I forget which line is which without looking at the car ...  but those 3 vac ports on the TB, one runs to the dizzy, the middle is capped, and the other runs to the BOV.
1988 Starion ESi-R ... crushed by a tree 10/31/11 - back from the dead 8/2016
1988 Conquest TSi ... current driver - sold to Bigjoe 6/2016
1987 Conquest Flatty ... F/S thread - sold 8/2014
1987 Conquest TSi ... parts car - sold to Coldscrip 12/2011
1999 Eclipse 4G63 ... heavily modified.
Feeback Thread | Motor rebuild thread | Restoration thread

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#725 pcristquester

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Posted 05 November 2020 - 05:18 PM

You can cap it or remove it if it's tee'd in. The nipple on the stock OVCP connects to the turbo wastegate actuator
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#726 techboy

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Posted 09 November 2020 - 10:40 AM

I made an accidental interesting discovery this weekend.  I went to move the car in the garage so I could work on a different project.  When I started it, it was all rough and I could barely keep it running.  I shut it down, popped the hood to discover I had left the CTS unhooked with the 270 resistor jammed into the plug.  So, the car thought it was hot, when it was actually cold.  Which ... tells me the ECU is getting SOME TYPE of signal through the CTS wiring.  As soon as I removed the resistor and plugged it back into the normal CTS, it started up and ran just fine.

EDIT: pcristquester suggested I try a different dizzy. The one on the car now is not the original.  It came off my 88 Quest, which is where the whole engine in the car was swapped over from.  BUT, that Quest had a zillion owners and was a total mess in the engine bay when I got it, so who's to say it's actually an 88 dizzy.  I do have the original dizzy to the Starion.  Is there any confirmation/information on dizzys being different at all from year to year???

Edited by techboy, 09 November 2020 - 10:44 AM.

1988 Starion ESi-R ... crushed by a tree 10/31/11 - back from the dead 8/2016
1988 Conquest TSi ... current driver - sold to Bigjoe 6/2016
1987 Conquest Flatty ... F/S thread - sold 8/2014
1987 Conquest TSi ... parts car - sold to Coldscrip 12/2011
1999 Eclipse 4G63 ... heavily modified.
Feeback Thread | Motor rebuild thread | Restoration thread

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#727 techboy

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 09:48 PM

I had a little bit of more time to mess around with this car today.  First, I tried swapping the OEM FPR for another one I had and took the car out for a drive.  No difference whatsoever.

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Second, I finally broke down and took BuGG's suggestion that he mentioned a long time ago ... I rigged up a way to try and recirculating the BOV.   What I did is so ghetto I can't believe I'm even showing you guys, lol, but here goes.

I had a few spare old accordion intake pipes laying around.  These OEM intakes have that recirculation tube on the bottom that feeds air back into the air canister.  I had this idea that maybe there would be a way to remove that and use the open port to recirculate the BOV.

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It was a little bit of work to get that tube out, I think it was glued in from the factory, but I got it off after working it a while with a flathead screwdriver.

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I found an old coolant hose that fit in there perfectly.

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Unfortunately that diameter of the coolant hose is way too small for the BOV opening, so I had to find another piece of tube that fit on the BOV and mesh the two together.  And this is where it got kinda ghetto.  I had to use some duck tape and make it work.  It's only for testing purposes ... right?!

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Here it is on the car.  Kinda hard to see, but you get the idea.

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I noticed an immediate difference before I even got out of my neighborhood on the wideband.   The car ran WAAAY better, boosted much better, and at a traffic light the wideband was showing numbers like what you see below - not 10 or 11 like it was before.

The whole thing is just  so strange to me b/c the car would run rich when it hadn't even made boost yet, and thus the BOV hadn't even opened yet.  I can only wonder if maybe the BOV vents air a little bit all the time and that throws off the ECU readings off and so it thinks it needs more fuel.  Anyway, I'm still very hesitant to call it "fixed" b/c this is battle I've been fighting for almost 4 years, but it definitely feels like I made some major progress today.  Now, I need to come up with a way to recirculate the BOV a bit better w/ some different hoses/piping.  Time to hit up Google ...

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Edited by techboy, 17 December 2020 - 05:15 PM.

1988 Starion ESi-R ... crushed by a tree 10/31/11 - back from the dead 8/2016
1988 Conquest TSi ... current driver - sold to Bigjoe 6/2016
1987 Conquest Flatty ... F/S thread - sold 8/2014
1987 Conquest TSi ... parts car - sold to Coldscrip 12/2011
1999 Eclipse 4G63 ... heavily modified.
Feeback Thread | Motor rebuild thread | Restoration thread

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#728 tsi_tom

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Posted 14 November 2020 - 10:06 PM

What I have seen and believe is always get the car running on the stock system before any modifications.
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#729 BuGG

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 12:01 AM

This is a good start.  I can send you some pics of my setup if you want.
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#730 Turbo Cary

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 09:32 AM

I think your BOV may be bad. The valve shouldn't be opened at idle and if recirculated setup changed it I would look at that as the culprit.

You're using a 1G DSM BOV right? I'm pretty sure I have a no name knock off one laying around I could send you. It has an adjustment bolt on it. Essentially when you install it you slowly back off the adjustment until it cracks open at idle then tighten it back down a turn or two until it closes. Too tight it wont open at all and too loose it leaks at idle.

Another way you could verify your BOV is bad would be to smoke test the engine. Get it to a shop and change it all back to how it was then smoke it. Did you run full time vacuum or ported vacuum port to the BOV?

FWIW I ran a vent to atmosphere setup on mine for years. Recirculated is better for turbo spooling after gear changes and leads to better response.

Edited by Turbo Cary, 15 November 2020 - 09:34 AM.


#731 techboy

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Posted 15 November 2020 - 07:02 PM

View Posttsi_tom, on 14 November 2020 - 10:06 PM, said:

What I have seen and believe is always get the car running on the stock system before any modifications.

Typically I agree with you 100%, but when I bought my first Quest 10 years ago I had a hacked up car and engine that was missing half of everything.  I had to work with what I had.  I think one of the difficult things about these cars is it's really hard to start with a stock setup when they've been hacked up so much over the years.  As we all know, it's really hard to find a stock unmolested Starquest anymore.

View PostBuGG, on 15 November 2020 - 12:01 AM, said:

This is a good start.  I can send you some pics of my setup if you want.

I would love some pics of how you did it.  I did some digging and I found and old pic from Freebird on how he recirculated his.

View PostTurbo Cary, on 15 November 2020 - 09:32 AM, said:

I think your BOV may be bad. The valve shouldn't be opened at idle and if recirculated setup changed it I would look at that as the culprit.

You're using a 1G DSM BOV right? I'm pretty sure I have a no name knock off one laying around I could send you. It has an adjustment bolt on it. Essentially when you install it you slowly back off the adjustment until it cracks open at idle then tighten it back down a turn or two until it closes. Too tight it wont open at all and too loose it leaks at idle.

Another way you could verify your BOV is bad would be to smoke test the engine. Get it to a shop and change it all back to how it was then smoke it. Did you run full time vacuum or ported vacuum port to the BOV?

FWIW I ran a vent to atmosphere setup on mine for years. Recirculated is better for turbo spooling after gear changes and leads to better response.

Yes, I'm using a 1G BOV.  You're right, it could be bad - never thought of that.  I don't even remember anymore where I got it.  My father-in-law owns a shop, so I can drive it over there and smoke it and look for a leak.  I've done that before.  

As far as vacuum goes, I'm running the BOV off one of the 3 the ports on the base of the TB.   I forget which one, I know it's not the middle.  I have that one capped.  I believe that would be a ported vacuum port.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited by techboy, 16 November 2020 - 09:49 AM.

1988 Starion ESi-R ... crushed by a tree 10/31/11 - back from the dead 8/2016
1988 Conquest TSi ... current driver - sold to Bigjoe 6/2016
1987 Conquest Flatty ... F/S thread - sold 8/2014
1987 Conquest TSi ... parts car - sold to Coldscrip 12/2011
1999 Eclipse 4G63 ... heavily modified.
Feeback Thread | Motor rebuild thread | Restoration thread

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#732 techboy

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 09:52 AM

This is the current vacuum setup on my car:

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1 - runs to the dizzy/vacuum advance.  That's it, nothing else.
2 - obviously capped.
3 - runs to the BOV, and is teed (as you can see) for the boost gauge in the cabin.
4 - the line kinda disappers, but it comes off the port on the bottom of the manifold and loops around the engine to all the factory stuff - HVAC canister, cruise, vacuum pump, and all the other "things" along the way.

Edited by techboy, 17 November 2020 - 07:36 PM.

1988 Starion ESi-R ... crushed by a tree 10/31/11 - back from the dead 8/2016
1988 Conquest TSi ... current driver - sold to Bigjoe 6/2016
1987 Conquest Flatty ... F/S thread - sold 8/2014
1987 Conquest TSi ... parts car - sold to Coldscrip 12/2011
1999 Eclipse 4G63 ... heavily modified.
Feeback Thread | Motor rebuild thread | Restoration thread

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#733 Turbo Cary

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 10:29 AM

I have always used full time vacuum (the port at the bottom of the intake manifold) for gauges, blow off valves or other aftermarket vacuum accessories unless specified by the part installed.

#734 kev

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 03:17 PM

I thought all 1g Bovs needed to be crushed in order to not open at idle?  It's been many years since I've run one on a conquest but I definitely had to 'crush' it.  I agree with the above, if the afr changed just due to the bypass configuration, that BOV is opening while not in boost.  

I always tap into the brake vac booster vacuum line for the bov on a stock conquest.   I never got the volume out of one of the small ports.   If you dumped the abs module, I've used the factory 'check valve' T that is in line with the brake booster line (obviously disabling the check valve feature on the T).  It works good for a 1/4" line.

#735 importwarrior

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Posted 16 November 2020 - 06:51 PM

i have to agree with KEV. i believe they need like 1/16th crush for starters and more if need be.

can you just plug the BOV to see if it cleans up the richness at idle?

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#736 techboy

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 07:41 PM

View Postkev, on 16 November 2020 - 03:17 PM, said:

I thought all 1g Bovs needed to be crushed in order to not open at idle?  It's been many years since I've run one on a conquest but I definitely had to 'crush' it.  I agree with the above, if the afr changed just due to the bypass configuration, that BOV is opening while not in boost.  

I always tap into the brake vac booster vacuum line for the bov on a stock conquest.   I never got the volume out of one of the small ports.   If you dumped the abs module, I've used the factory 'check valve' T that is in line with the brake booster line (obviously disabling the check valve feature on the T).  It works good for a 1/4" line.

Being a long-time DSMer I've certainly read about crushing 1G BOV's before. It was always my impression that people did that to put more pressure on the spring so they could run higher boost.  I didn't think it related in any way to whether or not it leaked at idle.  This one is not crushed b/c I figured at the time I wasn't running above stock boost levels on this car so it didn't really need to be crushed.

I do like the idea of running the BOV off the brake booster vacuum line.  Mine is just capped off anyway since the ABS is gone.  It's not doing anything.

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1988 Starion ESi-R ... crushed by a tree 10/31/11 - back from the dead 8/2016
1988 Conquest TSi ... current driver - sold to Bigjoe 6/2016
1987 Conquest Flatty ... F/S thread - sold 8/2014
1987 Conquest TSi ... parts car - sold to Coldscrip 12/2011
1999 Eclipse 4G63 ... heavily modified.
Feeback Thread | Motor rebuild thread | Restoration thread

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#737 Turbo Cary

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Posted 17 November 2020 - 08:00 PM

For a super clean look you can get some brake hard line and run it the length of the valve cover so you only use short lengths of vacuum hose.

#738 mbruneaux

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 10:26 AM

View Posttechboy, on 16 November 2020 - 09:52 AM, said:

This is the current vacuum setup on my car:

Posted Image

1 - runs to the dizzy/vacuum advance.  That's it, nothing else.
2 - obviously capped.
3 - runs to the BOV, and is teed (as you can see) for the boost gauge in the cabin.
4 - the line kinda disappers, but it comes off the port on the bottom of the manifold and loops around the engine to all the factory stuff - HVAC canister, cruise, vacuum pump, and all the other "things" along the way.

There's your mistake, you used a standard bolt to plug the hose not a metric one.     Glad you made progress.
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#739 techboy

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Posted 18 November 2020 - 01:42 PM

View Postmbruneaux, on 18 November 2020 - 10:26 AM, said:

There's your mistake, you used a standard bolt to plug the hose not a metric one. Glad you made progress.

LOL!!! :D :D   Thanks, I'm so glad you spotted that!  Now it will definitely be 100% fixed.
1988 Starion ESi-R ... crushed by a tree 10/31/11 - back from the dead 8/2016
1988 Conquest TSi ... current driver - sold to Bigjoe 6/2016
1987 Conquest Flatty ... F/S thread - sold 8/2014
1987 Conquest TSi ... parts car - sold to Coldscrip 12/2011
1999 Eclipse 4G63 ... heavily modified.
Feeback Thread | Motor rebuild thread | Restoration thread

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#740 mbruneaux

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Posted 20 November 2020 - 10:22 AM

View Posttechboy, on 18 November 2020 - 01:42 PM, said:

LOL!!! :D :D   Thanks, I'm so glad you spotted that!  Now it will definitely be 100% fixed.

I seem to remember seeing someone use a sparkplug once to cap a large vacuum line, didn't misfire!     Any updates on the fix?
Canterbury, CT
1989 Chrysler Conquest TSi (Project Race Car) Build thread http://www.starquest...opic=147910&hl=
2001 BMW 740iL - My Daily
2003 Chevrolet Suburban 2500 8.1  To tow the two hay burners
2010 Charger R/T  daily driver

Second place is S*** place , eh.  - Stéphane Peterhansel




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