Indiana Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 If his crank were broke he wouldn't have belts turning. I'd go with the pickup tube oring sucking air and this is why your turbos were dying. Aerated oil is not oil at all. I'd now inspect all the bearings since you have it torn down so far already. If I use those Felpro adapter orings, and even the OEM ones, I put a little bit of sealant around there with them. I've seen original motors and they all had some type sealant as well as the oring it wasn't put in there oring only that I've ever seen and usually its a gray colored sealant and the OEM orings are blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted June 5, 2009 Report Share Posted June 5, 2009 I would pull apart the block filter adapter and make sure the o-rings in there are good, and check the cooler bypass to be functioning too. Although bad o-rings there will leak down the side of the block. Mike_C. is battling that on one of his right now. ................................................................................ ............................. i bet he's useing an after market oring,, fel-pro had a problem in their gasket kits haveing a too small dia oring for that adaptor and the result was an oil leak Original o-rings from when the car was first built. Either that or a dealer changed 'em. No "shop" ever worked on this car (relative's car) and I've never done anything with that mounting bracket gizmo myself. Mitsu o-rings ordered... still waiting for the dealer to call. Good to know the Felpros might be incorrect; the dealer ones are not cheap but I'll sleep better knowing I got correct OEM ones rather than "maybe incorrect Felpros" that have been sitting on a shelf for years. mike c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayton Posted June 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Yeah, that's about all I can say is left too. The pick-up could be loose and not sealing the o-ring, but you have the pan off, so I figure that must not be the problem. Unless the rear engine oil plug came out? But then you should be seeing a massive leak from the bell housing dust cover. A few years ago I mistakenly put the main bearings in upside down. The guage showed good pressure but I blew the oil filter right off of it. It is possible there is a clogged passage too. Since you have a lot apart, I would try blowing air through the oil passages to see if you can find a clog that way. Of course breaking the clog loose with air won't fix the problem, but it may bring some sanity toward knowing what the problem is! I would pull apart the block filter adapter and make sure the o-rings in there are good, and check the cooler bypass to be functioning too. Although bad o-rings there will leak down the side of the block. Mike_C. is battling that on one of his right now. The first thing I checked was the oil pick-up tube and I had checked it once before and replaced the o-ring because of the turbo lubrication problems I was having. I have also been through the filter adapter a few times in the past and have replaced all those gaskets with new factory ones twice already. I had also checked the cooler bypass valve recently with a heat gun to make sure it was opening and it's fine. I'm definitely looking for some sort of clog in the oil passages. I can't see this being an easy find though. No leaks at the back of the block or at the filter adapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayton Posted June 6, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 (edited) If his crank were broke he wouldn't have belts turning. I'd go with the pickup tube oring sucking air and this is why your turbos were dying. Aerated oil is not oil at all. I'd now inspect all the bearings since you have it torn down so far already. If I use those Felpro adapter orings, and even the OEM ones, I put a little bit of sealant around there with them. I've seen original motors and they all had some type sealant as well as the oring it wasn't put in there oring only that I've ever seen and usually its a gray colored sealant and the OEM orings are blue. I had mentioned in the past with my turbo lubrication problems that I thought the oil seemed aerated as it cam out of the tubo return line. I had done a test for the volume of oil coming out of the turbo with the return line fed into a drain pan. The oil had really really small air bubbles in it. I mean the oil looked brown instead of black from it. When I posted about it no one seemed to express concern and one member stated that when the oil passes the tubine shaft that it tends to get aerated from how fast the shaft spins and that I shoudn't be concerned. I't always been in the back of my mind though. What else would cause the oil to get aerated? I'm also gonna look into the bearings to make sure they are not installed backwards. What affect would they have if they were backwards? Obviously I have never blown the oil filter off like Tim did. I still can't figure what could have caused the noise though. It's driving me nuts. It was like a backfire type noise. Edited June 6, 2009 by Jayton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edde Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 Maybe the bang and oil pressure reading are unrelated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 From your symptoms, you should be able to look at the oil direction of flow through the passages on the drawing. That should help you make a good educated guess at where the clog is. My engine lasted all of 4 miles of driving. I got it back to the shop and had my friend's dad come out to look to see while I started it again. He bent over the engine bay on the exhaust side, right over the filter, and it blew off and squirted oil all over him! I was fortunate the oil was not that hot ( he was fortunate too!) It turned out to be a good thing that engine blew. The crank was turned too much and the clearances were on the big side. Too small of journals, too big of clearances makes for an engine you don't want for performance uses. There were other things found in the build that weren't right too. I learned from it. My fix was to relentlessly make sure everything was perfect on the next build. Middle to tight of clearance specs, etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted June 6, 2009 Report Share Posted June 6, 2009 airate'd oil on this engine can have only a couple of places,, the by far most likely cause is a nonsealing oring on the pick up tube i have found 3 oil pumps that were just hanging on the the block when i tore the engine down almost all the use'd oil pumps i have torn apart were still useable even the ones falling off the block Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayton Posted June 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Although the oil pump checked out fine on the bench, I put it back on the car along with the oil pan and when spun with an air ratchet the pump produces no oil flow. Could the relief valve be stuck? Either way I'm gonna put a new pump on it. It never ends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 Although the oil pump checked out fine on the bench, I put it back on the car along with the oil pan and when spun with an air ratchet the pump produces no oil flow. Could the relief valve be stuck? Either way I'm gonna put a new pump on it. It never ends. You have to prime the pump, I would inspect it before I replace it. Dad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chad Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 The pump is 2 pieces held togeter by that #3 phillips screw. Pull it appart and check the gears and housing. You'll never feel good about this till you find something for sure. I prime my new pumps by taking the pump appart and packing the gears with petrolium jelly or heavy axle grease (something that won't drip off). You might want to try that to verify if the parts look OK inside. If it suddently makes good pressure after being packed, the clearances are too much. If not, the problem is not the pump prime or clearances and may still lie elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted June 7, 2009 Report Share Posted June 7, 2009 These pumps have no choice but to pump. If you are getting nothing out, then there is nothing going in either. Maybe the pick-up tube is clogged? I know we keep suggesting things that should be obvious, but just trying to leave no stone unturned so to speak. You would also see something even if the relief was stuck wide open. I like to put a washer behind the relief spring to delay it's opening to a higher pressure. Yes, they are known to get stuck too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayton Posted June 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 The pump is 2 pieces held togeter by that #3 phillips screw. Pull it appart and check the gears and housing. You'll never feel good about this till you find something for sure. I prime my new pumps by taking the pump appart and packing the gears with petrolium jelly or heavy axle grease (something that won't drip off). You might want to try that to verify if the parts look OK inside. If it suddently makes good pressure after being packed, the clearances are too much. If not, the problem is not the pump prime or clearances and may still lie elsewhere. Yes, I pulled the pump apart and checked the gears and housing. Everything looks OK. I'll try packing the gears to see what happens. Believe you me, I certianly will not be able to ever use this car with any confidence unless something is discovered as the definitive cause. I'm hoping it's the same culprit that has been causing my turbo lubrication problems as I have never been able to pinpoint that one either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayton Posted June 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 These pumps have no choice but to pump. If you are getting nothing out, then there is nothing going in either. Maybe the pick-up tube is clogged? I know we keep suggesting things that should be obvious, but just trying to leave no stone unturned so to speak. You would also see something even if the relief was stuck wide open. I like to put a washer behind the relief spring to delay it's opening to a higher pressure. Yes, they are known to get stuck too. Definitely checked the pickup tube. Ran it in the parts washer and all. So the relief valve opens at a certian oil pressure to keep it from rising to much. Then if it were stuck open there would be crappy pressure at idle and lower RPM's, but not bad enough to do damage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelby Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 the pressure relief valve is normaly open at higher rpms,,your right in asumeing it'd still pump oil at higher rpms,, in fact the oil pump could probly provide enought oil for 3 engines all at once with no relief valve ,,it delivers many times more oil then is need'd to lube the brgs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted June 8, 2009 Report Share Posted June 8, 2009 Another possibility is a clog directly after the pump. Also, you do have the second keyway in the crank, correct? One thing that is hard to notice is if the two halves of the pump are not mating perfectly. This will cause the exact problem you are having by allowing air into the pump itself. Except I have never seen or heard of this being the problem. I have to say I have never seen one of our pumps not pump either. I rarely pre-lube even a new pump because they are factory assembled lubricated and never require a pre-prime like the old domestic pumps did decades ago. That said, it is not a bad idea to lube it. When I clean and assemble one I use the permatex engine assy lube. It is dark red (blood red) and thick like Chad says to use. I know a few machinists who use it for all moving metal parts assembly. You can put the pick-up tube to a new pump and put it in a bucket of oil, spin it with a drill and it will immediately pump oil first time, every time. The washer in the relief valve thing only works if the extra pressure is available such as is with an OEM long block. Rebuilds usually end up with more bearing clearance than factory so the 'narrowed spring travel distance' has less effect. It seems to get the factory clearances, the machine shop must take additional steps that they will not do unless the customer demands it. The clearances end up on the loose end of spec, and they are happy with that. My experience is that is not acceptable on the turbo 2.6L. I like to be on the tight end for the mains, and no more than middle of spec for rods with enlargened main journal oil holes. Anyway, the washer will surely wake up an old pump on an OEM assembly. I usually do the mod when removing the balance shafts on a used engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 I've seen the valves stuck and the temp valve in the filter adapter stuck too. How would a valve stick open though? If it were removed from being stuck then the bore scored up and the piston scored up then its put back in the only thing to make it go down is the spring pressure. You just remove the nut from the end and the piston and spring falls out. You have it this far down I'd remove the cooler lines and remove the filter adapter that has been your problem area for some time now. If you tear it down you might find something. How does the pickup tube look is it mashed on the end and the tube pushed against the screen? There is to be a gap from the screen to the tube otherwise the rest of the screen is useless and then that small part of the screen right over the opening is a big restriction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim_C. Posted June 9, 2009 Report Share Posted June 9, 2009 True, I have seen two oil pump relief valves stick closed/spring fully extended. Both times the piston and cylinder were scoured and creating friction between the two. Aluminum friction will gall and actually weld itself with very little movement. That is the bad thing about the aluminum oil pumps. I like to put some emery cloth on the end of a phillips screwdriver or something rounded that is small enough to fit in the relief hole. Then carefully spin it around in there to get it smooth. I smooth out the little piston too. I don't do it to a new pump though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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