what do you need for a 12 sec. car?

[Questsi]

ACTUALLY WE ALL START OF WITH 4 WHEELS WHICH =100%  

IF ONLY THE REAR WHEELS SPIN, THAT = 50%

ALL 4 WHEELS SPINNING = 100% ;D ;D SO YA I'M RIGHT ;D

[Diversion]

I own a WRX that puts around 210 horsepower and 190 torque to the WHEELS.  

 

It can pull a 13.4 @ 103 mph all day long..   Mostly due to traction, but as you can see it has a low MPH.  

 

The G54B is an engine designed to make gobs of power at incredibly low RPMS, and it does it quite well as you can see on the dyno charts.  It makes HUGE torque and decent hp to the wheels.  

 

Reason why WRXs and DSMs have much more potential to be faster than a StarQuest is a lot of things..  Dual Over head cam and 16 valves for starters... this makes a huge difference over the SOHC/8 valve setup in our engines..  The DSMs and WRXs use airflow 150% or so more effectively than the G54B can.   The second most important factor is the technology of the engine verses the newer cars..  It's obvious the simplicity of the G54B just can't physically create the output of newer cars..  

 

Lastly, the biggest flaw of the G54B is the ability to rev high..  Doesn't matter if you have a cam in the G54B that allows revving to 8000 rpms, the engine will NOT make much more power, IF AT ALL past 5000 rpms..  We have a 2.6 liter 4 cylinder, c'mon, put two and two together and that adds up to a nasty long stroke..   A good thing is that our 2.6s can spool a huge turbo up much quicker than your smaller 2.0 4 cylinder..  however, due to the limitations on the power making ability in the high rpms, the G54B can only make use of power effectively for MAYBE 2500 rpms..  then the power drops off HORRIBLY and you get slower the higher you take the rpms..  A short stroked 2.0 4 cylinder can be designed to make power up to 8000+ rpms..  so sure it might take 3600 rpms to spool a Big 16G... that leaves you over 4000 rpms of FULL BOOST power to lay down to the ground..    That's why they are so fast..  once they get that big turbo spooling, they got all that rpm room to effectively use the power..     The G54B can't effectively use a large turbo's power..  that's why I think people should stick to 14G, 16G, and 18G turbos.. .anything bigger will just begin to limit the way your engine uses the turbo.  

 

The only thing one can do to extend the length of time the power is being made in each gear on the G54B is to use longer gear ratios..   That way you're revving SLOWER.. causing the engine to stay in it's sweet spot LONGER...    Staying in the sweet spot longer will allow you to use the power more effectively...  Of course, longer gears will make off-boost driving annoying and slower.

 

Jay

[Joel]

Well, I think there are a few things missing in your theory. You are assuming that long strokes cannot make power above X rpm. That is simply untrue. SOHC/8valve motors have and will make good power if done right. Yes there is an advantage to the 16valve/dohc heads, but that doesn't mean it can't be made up with the extra displacement.

 

Long stroked motors require more flow in the head (obviously), BUT the wonderful thing it DOES have an advantage over is more effiecient burn times (due to smaller bore than stroke). The flame front travels from the spark plug (roughly center in our hemi design but not exactly). The smaller bore allows for propagation to take less time. The large bore motors typically take less time to fill the chamber, but take more timing advance to burn the mixture efficiently due to flame propagation speeds.

 

The larger motor will spool a larger turbo. I don't know if you realize this or not, but keywords like "Laminar flow" don't have to mean as much under boost.  I will not argue that a WRX/DSM with a pent roof head will likely make more power per lb of boost per cubic inch, but I will argue that with the added cubic inch it matters less. V8's are good powerplants not due to efficiency, but because of total power output. I wouldn't personally suggest anyone here attempt 8k redlines on a street car with a l/s ratio of 1.36, but for a all out race-mobile it can be done with excellent results.

The hemispherical SOHC head does not allow placement of the sparkplug in the dead center, since the cam is in the way. They get somewhat close, but not quiet. Flame propagation takes place from an outter edge rather than dead center. This is not all lost, as chamber swirl does actually take place in a hemispherical head. Naturally, this does not happen on pent roof designs without special head work done, unless the manufacturer built that in. Those techniques were not used on the WRX or DSM heads.

 

To be completely and udderly honest with you, I think the 2.6L has some major advantages over most other 4cyl due to displacement. The problem is, the car has been out of production for 13 years, and in those 13 years only a handful of people have TRIED to get power out of these cars... Of those successful individuals, very few of them will utter a word voluntarily about the setup used. WRX's and DSM's have thousands of individuals who have played with these cars, and now the internet is availible to help them in their quest. Now you can setup your car based on someone elses knowledge. That honestly is not an option on a G54B.

 

The long stroke of the G54B is advantagous due to its enormous torque output per revolution. That does not require one to rev the hell out of it to make up the difference. I think the choices between the WRX/DSM/Starion will all be somewhat equal when all are given equal attention in the proper areas. I have some pretty decent connections in DC that deals with mostly the WRX, and the shop has put the stock-motored WRX in the 12s without nitrous. Thats damn good. By no means do I believe that you cannot do that with a Starquest. Its just never really been payed the attention that we are now giving it. Long strokers generally are not as efficient, but generally come out in the top few when setup properly... For those of us really trying hard on this, we can't expect the same power output per X mod we do as any other "different design" motor. Just design the system to work for what you want, and stop caring what "Other motors" that have NOTHING in common with this one aside from "It has metal, and pistons, and valves, and 4 holes" etc.

 

On a side note, G54B still holds world record times... The 2L motors are still in the 8s iirc.

 

Joel

[Siance]

Couldn't said it better my self!!!!!!!!!!!! Nice words joel

 

Siance

[PiercedJD]

brent rau was running consistant 7.11's a few months ago.  2.0 in a 3/4 chassis 2G talon.

 

he won pro outlaw with those numbers.

[Boosted_One]

Fantastic article Joel!

[Lizzord30]

Being a engine with low revs and High low end TQ the quest needs a good sticky launch to really shine. Also the 5sp manual does not help its 1/4 tiumes. A boost launch (auto) with some slicks should give large 1/4 gains. And about the head not flowing well, the Race done new oversized valve magna head flows 280cfm, how much do most DOHC flow? (i know their is more gains in DOHC then just flow). On a side note my car doesnt have any problems reving it loves the 6k range dont want to go over the becuse of stock bottom end tho.

[heefner]

Lizz, dont take this the wrong way but will you blow up that motor already so you can rebuid it and run your setup WFO!    I'm getting impatient.  Between your setup and all the other projects I see in the works and no one is quite there yet.  I thought for sure I would break into the 12's this summer but now my turbo's on the way out and I won't be in any condition to fix it in the next few months. By next srping the car will be back together but with new suspension, new t-body, and new turbo and I'll have to relearn the car all over again. Man this is getting frustraiting. >

[Boosted_One]

Lizz, dont take this the wrong way but will you blow up that motor already so you can rebuid it and run your setup WFO!    I'm getting impatient.  Between your setup and all the other projects I see in the works and no one is quite there yet.  I thought for sure I would break into the 12's this summer but now my turbo's on the way out and I won't be in any condition to fix it in the next few months. By next srping the car will be back together but with new suspension, new t-body, and new turbo and I'll have to relearn the car all over again. Man this is getting frustraiting. >

 

 

I hear ya about "being there". I thought the MPI would be a big key, well it is but I still don't have 10 out of the 10 things I need. The MPI did add about 40HP and 60 ft/lbs at the wheels though.

 

Talk about relearning the car! I'm in the same boat. Bigger turbo and different cam going in along with a new motor.

 

I think were hitting new grounds here and something is limiting things. The problem is we all follow similar suit and sooner or later someone has to try someting more "radical" to break away and see what gains are there.

 

On my end I am replacing the turbo, manifold and cam.

 

If the TDO5 turbine housing, which at this point I am looking closely at, then we are going to have to start looking and doing things a little bit differently I think.

[heefner]

Are you gonna go with the SPF header?

[Boosted_One]

I'm buying an equal length header and HKS wastegate that Chad has on his now. TO4B wil bolt right on.

 

His header is bad tail!

[heefner]

Is Chad making these headers or are they available to the public?

[4g63-510]

What do you need for a 12 sec. car? simple 4G63 and a diet...

[PiercedJD]

What do you need for a 12 sec. car? simple 4G63 and a diet...

 

8)

[TainterRacing]

Well Lizzords car is very very close to getting on the raod at full Power.... hope by next week.... and I think there is a 90% it will be in the 12's well even 95% chance we will get a 12's I will Tow it with my stang if I need to, too get a 12's out of it!!!  ;D

[jinx]

just peepin in on this thread.... had some thoughts

has anyone found a cam that idles good, has quiet valvetrain action and pulls to ~6800 rpm ?

 

so nobody has timed their car with mpfi ?

 

what about turbo upgrades on the stock td05 wheel ? 2.6 oe exhaust wheel won't support much hp, will it ?  DSM turbine wheel much better

 

Anyone pick Rolo's brains on his car specifics ?

Is his super20G like hahn racecrafts (10cm housing) ?

I clipped some of his post that said 2.5" exhaust!

Anyone know what his "custom" cam was / valvetrain noise / powerband ?

Car was sold recently to another list member ?

obviously good info hidden in that 11.22sec street car combo, and I did not see the mention of nitros nowhere in that thread, and he was very specific while answering questions at the time

 

There were and still are fast 2.6s running around, so its only a matter of time before that info makes its way on the net, and people here can back it up running good times

 

4g63 will definitely put it down, no question there

I have put a few sohc 4g63 (non-us starion, my favorite 4cyl) into early 80s corollas that were quick little suckers, even on stock tbi. I've recently put a DSM dohc 4g63 into a corolla gts hatch (rwd). Even stock motor, car is a blast. With mods, it'll be fckn nuts!

Here's a cool site... but rwd hook better + gear choices endless

http://www.turbomirage.com/  

[PiercedJD]

;D

 

turbomirage.com is Tom's site. he's a local here and a helluva nice guy. Cool to see that his site is being trafficed by a little bit of everybody.

[DJ_Lazarek]

ACTUALLY WE ALL START OF WITH 4 WHEELS WHICH =100%  

IF ONLY THE REAR WHEELS SPIN, THAT = 50%

ALL 4 WHEELS SPINNING = 100% ;D ;D SO YA I'M RIGHT ;D

 

No your not. If AWD had 50% more traction then RWD (50% plus 2 wheels spining = 3 wheels spining) they would have 3 wheels spining. 100% plus 2wd = AWD...so the other guy was right.

 

DJ

[4g63-510]

I don't know why some of you put down dsm's. When you should be working together to achive a common goal.  FAST CARS that kick domestic butt. Some fo you sound like Ford vs. Chevy rivals. We all drive the same make of car. Quit spending so much time whining and spend more time on what you say you like, YOUR CARS...

As for the 2.6L, it is nothing more that a truck engine with a SMALL turbo bolted to it. Laws of physics. 2 valve head vs. 4 valve, center located spark plug, ROLLER valvetrain, timing belt, huge ports, blah blah blah. Quit bench racing and actually do it.

james

[Lizzord30]

I don't know why some of you put down dsm's. When you should be working together to achive a common goal.  FAST CARS that kick domestic butt. Some fo you sound like Ford vs. Chevy rivals. We all drive the same make of car. Quit spending so much time whining and spend more time on what you say you like, YOUR CARS...

As for the 2.6L, it is nothing more that a truck engine with a SMALL turbo bolted to it. Laws of physics. 2 valve head vs. 4 valve, center located spark plug, ROLLER valvetrain, timing belt, huge ports, blah blah blah. Quit bench racing and actually do it.

james

The 2L is by far better in stock from, DSM is not a mits, but i agree we should work together, but i think the dsm dont know about us and generaly speaking dont care about us, also they seam to hate us for having the fastest 4 poper (sakura). It takes a lot of work to get the 2.6 up to pare with a stock 2L. A big reson why the 2L is ez to get fast is becuse so many ppl have modded it and it is no secret how to get it fast. 2L is for ppl that are lazy and dont want to bother doing the testing and turnning and mixing parts together that you need to do with the 2.6. If you want a 2L Starion go buy one and ship it over here. I bet if more ppl whent all out like they do with the 2L their would be many more fast 2.6 ones. And what i think is cool is that the Sakura beats the 2L with out all the extra stuff it has that you mentioned. If the Eclips had the 2.6 with all the new tech (that the 2L has) it would be much faster then it is. I think it helps to the hate factor that a lot of the Starquest ppl are also V8 fans, and many DSM's are riced out. And about the truck motor thing, well its actualy a deilse mottor for fork lifts refer to it as the Fork Lift Motor And i totaly aggree with you on the small turbo, that is one of the huge things holding it back, even a TD05 20g will never show the true power of the 2.6 (exhaust needs to be very large).

I guess it just matters what you want if all you want is fast, get a v8, if you want to be diff then get a Starquest, if you want to be like every one else get a DSM.

[Siance]

LOL.............I agree, if more people took intrest in the 2.6 there would be more performance parts, newer ways to make power, plus it would be the fastest on the road......if it already isn't, i haven't lost a race yet ;D..........Right now the starquest community is a bunch of low to middle class people( income) trying to go fast with little help.....thank god for the internet!!!!!..........

 

My two cents....

[4g63-510]

 Fork lift or truck engine either way. Last I checked my DSM says Mitsubishi. It may have been assembled in the US but it is still a Mitsu. Not all DSM's are riced out, mine being one of quite a few. In the circles that I travel we put our time and money under the hood. In one example a friend of mine has a Dodge Colt with a 4G63 swap that has bested a 11.04@133 in the quarter mile. The engine is ALL STOCK!!!

Factory rods, pistons, head, cams,valves and crank, all stock. Straight TO4E 60 trim, sheet metal intake and haltech. I've never seen a 2.6L do that, in fact Eric Plaboni(spell) took out the 2.6L for the 4G63. WHY??? if the 2.6L is so great. Sakuras car is just f-ing nuts. But those crazy a** Puerto guys are not affraid to throw juice to there cars until they are fast enough. Big nads. There are pushrod 3tc Toyota engines running 8's. So that theory is void. Yes Sakuras car is fast, But just imagine how fast it would it would be if at least it was mpi. I've read that in this column. If you throw enough crap at something it will go fast. Look at top fuel cars. I sold my 5.0L when I got my a** handed to me by a DSM with only a turbo, intercooler and exhaust upgrade. A week later I had mine, a 90 Eclipse GS-T and never looked back. On a side note I did own an 84 Starion. What a POS. Give me 4 cyl any day. I have respect for anyone who does things diffrent, as in building 4 cyl engines. But why not start out with a newer (better) design? For what I have read the 4G63 swap is easy. So why not? I posted a topic on putting a 4G63 in a 510. Power to weight ratio of 5.83. Z06 Vette 8.5. Enough said.

james

[Lizzord30]

so your saying that no one has dumped that kind of money in any other 4 cly? You didnt read what i was saying stock they arnt not at all equal, the 2L has way more goodies, but you can make up most with other mods (high flow magna head flows very well with over sized valves, can flow up their pretty well), you can get rollor rockers also.  PPL like you are what i am talking about, looking for an ez go fast car and not willing to spend time doing something worth while. In stock forum many parts of the starquest are very bad (TBI ing and turbo). But that doesnt mean the eninge is bad, when it all comes down to it a bigger engine is better.

[heefner]

James,

I'm not sure what your trying to say.  I don't think the engine swap is as easy as you say it is, especially for most of us guys here that don't own a shop to do it in.   If I wanted a 4g63, I would buy one but since I don't, I'm gonna spend my money and hard work making what I have fast.  As for making a dodge colt fast, its a beer can with 4 wheels, any motor with a little pep would make it fast.  Look at the chrysler GLH, I've seen them run 11's with a few mods, so.  The starquest wighs in at over 3200lbs, thats why it's hard to get sub 13's 1/4 mile times.  This summer I watched 2 quest with stock turbo and motors run 12's with the bottle, the catch, the interior was stripped.  Nothing but a drivers seat, steering wheel, tack and nitros bottle.  Your missing out on all the fun. Half the fun of making these cars fast is proving the Nay sayers wrong.  Think about how many full body, full interior cars run 12's at the track and can drive home (comfortably) from the races.  Supras, awd dsm's what else?

I'm not trying to start a pissing contest I'm just explaning how I see it.

[4g63-510]

My point is that with the more modern "more goodies" 4g63 you don't need al the bolt ons. So if I understand right if I was looking at vettes(never) I should pick the regular 345 hp over the ZO6 to have something worth while?!? As for your comment PPL like me F__K YOU!!! I busted my a** on my car. I put more time and effort in my Datsun 510 than ANYONE one this site. I will have some pics soon. As I stated before, I respect ANYONE for doing there own thing. Bar none.

I to am not trying to get in a pissing match. I have an opinion also. The first topic I posted was trying to inform people on what it really took to put a 4G63 in their cars. What I found is people starting to bash my 510. No respect. I hope we can agree that the days of uncompliant gas hog pushrod V-8s are coming to an end. That is why we are all here, right?