Draggin_Quest Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 I have a stock head unit and stock speakers. I installed a 12 disc JVC FM modulated CD changer. I want to get either one 10" sub or a 12" sub. It depends on wich one will fit. How big of an amp am I going to need? And will my alternator handle all this stuff, or do I have to get a bigger one? If anybody can recommend a sub that doesn't take much space and a cheap amp, I would appreciate it. Also does it matter which way I point the sub? Thanks Draggin_Quest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolyrgr Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Personally, I like the sound of a 10" sub. I also will take less airspace. The size of the amp will depend on the sub(s) and their RMS power. The alternator is not really equiped to handle much of an extra load. I would seriously recommend Tim C.'s alternator deal. I have one personally, and I am very impressed. My best advice to you on the sub/amp combo is to take your favorite CD aruond to the stereo shops and find the best combo that suits your tastes. Do remember though. with stereo equip. you get what you pay for. Bass is omni-directional. In otherwords, it doesn't matter where you point the subs, you'll here them just the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draggin_Quest Posted January 21, 2003 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 How much does a 10" put out? I don't want to rattle the windows or anything just a really good low end and maybe enough to thump when I want it to. But I only have enough room for 1 sub. So will a 10" put out enough or do I need a 12"? How much is Tim C's alternator? how hard is it to install? Thanks Draggin_Quest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolyrgr Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 A 10" will put out just as much sound as a 12", they just start to roll off sooner at the low end. I listen to a lot of Jazz, blues, R&B, classical, and the 10" has a better, cleaner response time. If you like a lot of Hip-Hop, rap and the likes, with a lot of sustained lows, you will probably like the 12" better. As far as rattling goes, a good 8" will rattle the windows if done right.You just learn to fix each rattle as you find them. I paid $245 shipped for the 110 amp, and it is just as easy as installing an OEM. I took me less than 1 hour start to finish. Zero troubles. I know that sounds like a lot, but places here wanted $175 for the 65 amp OEM, and they can't be effectively rebuilt. This unit from Tim is high end quality, and the internals are stockable items for most alternator shops (not that you are going to have any problems) There is a thread in the F.A.Q. with a ph# to the alt shop and they were more than happy to answer any /all of my questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 1 12" driver will displace more air than 2 10" drivers. Most 10s, even good ones, roll off at around 30Hz, which isn't nearly low enough for my personal taste. I feel that a 12 in a sealed box is a nice mix of tight frequency response and space constraints. But like Jolyrgr said, go around and pick out what you like. You're the one that's going to be listening to it. And, sub bass is omni-direction to the human ear, but the acoustic environments inside the car will produce different distortions or colorations on the sound. My car tends to sound better with the subs facing forward but "hits harder" pointing back ward. My experience is not unique in a conventional trunk bearing vehicle. However, hatch backs get a 3db (2x as loud by IASCA rating) cabin gain because of their shape when the drivers are pointed straight up into the glass. Most of the hatchbacks I've seen with subs have that arrangment and sound pretty good. Just experiment with placement until you find what you like. As far as the alternator goes, I'm of the opinion that you can never have too much. Your head lights will be brighter, your battery will charge better on short trips (that most of us make), and of course you'll have more power on tap for accessories and stereo gear. The only question I really have about Tim's alternator is why he doesn't use an even higher output model. From what I understand he's using a GM alternator and there cases are more or less all the same since the 70s. The alternator on my '97 88 was 140 amps stock and I had it built to 200 amps for $100. Just wondering why he doesn't start with a higher output model to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jolyrgr Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 My alternator guy here said that he could spin Tim C.'s alternator up to the 175-185 amp with no prob. The problem with starting out with the higher output amp as you mentioned may be in the casing. There may not be a 200 amp alt in a casing that leads to such ease of installation. (I asked the same question of my guy). Strangely enough, the alternator he had in mind for the project was the same one Tim's guys sent me. I just felt more comfortable with a tried and tested bracket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 Fair enough JR. When it comes to my bangs I'm always asking "how much more over-kill can I add?" So that's where my question comes from. I've actually been eyeballing places for a 2nd alternator (not on a SQ). 200 amps is good, but 400 would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted January 22, 2003 Report Share Posted January 22, 2003 I've been running a PPI A404 (200W) amp, with JL 10" sub, MB Quarts, etc. for 9 years now. THe system has been in 3 different conquests including 3 years in an 84 with the low amperage alternator. I have never blown an alternator in a conquest. In addition to the amp, I also always ran both electric fans hot all the time on the two TSi's that had the system in. So I would say your stock alternator will hold out providing your system isn't too extreme. kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 It's generally not healthy on the amplifer to brown out it's power section either. That under voltage can cause distortion in the output sections and in turn cause the frying of voice coils. I think you've been getting away with that because the A404 is generally not considered a large amp, but I'd bet the stock alternator can't handle much more. btw - the A404 is a very nice amp. I commend your taste. I kept waiting for PPI to build an amp that offered what I wanted, but they just couldn't get it done. Nice stuff tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted January 24, 2003 Report Share Posted January 24, 2003 Yes it is a small amp but great for what I need. I don't listen to rap music or heavy bass music. That amp drives my MB Quarts on the front two channels (the gains are actually turned way down on them) and the rear channels are bridged to my JL sub. It hits pretty nice but it isn't something that is going to win any bass contests. I bought that amp back in '94. It has been in three cars and still works like a champ. I can't complain one bit. The MB Quarts are the only thing in my system that I am not fond of, but that is a different story. But I understand what you are saying, anything larger or even a second amp will probably start to cause alternator problems. kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 Yeah, the old Art Series stuff is indestructable. I imagine that amp will be working for another 10 years or more. Just out of curiousity, white or black? I kinda like the black ones with the schematic myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted January 27, 2003 Report Share Posted January 27, 2003 Yep, black with the schematic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck641 Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 i agree with most of the guys here .. i think 10" sound better than 12" and with the right amp and subs you can make them hit just as hard. and different boxes will make them sound different and also where it is aimed unless its a bandpass box which normally doesnt make a difference what its facing. i have had a 600 watt kenwood pushing 2 10" polk audios and it drains on the battery and alternator when the bass hits hard, the guage moves a lot whenever they hit, especially sitting at a redlight. when you are driving normally itll stay pretty steady charging because of the increased rpms. if you are just running one 10" with like a 250 watt amp you should be fine with the stock alt. jus make sure your cables are good and all your connections so they dont add to the drain. -Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raytech Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 Well as stated in the previous posts the size of your sub depends on your preference and the amount of money that you want to spend. A 12 inch will for the most part go lower than a 10 inch. But that depends on which subs you are comparing. From the soud of it you don't want to radical of a stereo so I would say that your stock altenator would be just fine. If you like music with a rapidly changing beat I would recommend the 10 inch but if you like low smooth bass then it would be the 12. But if you get the 12 it will not respond to quick changes in tempo. With the right size and dimension box you can get the desired sound out of even a low end speaker. As for your amp, if you go with a low wattage high end amp or a high wattage low end amp you will probably get about the same amounts of amp drain and wattage. The problem with amps and speakers is they are not governed by anyone so they can say what ever they want. So hearing the combo that you want is the best way to determine, what to buy. Just remember that when you are in a stereo shop you are in alot bigger space so the bass will sound lower than it really is. If possible listen to friends systems to find out the true sound of some systems. Sorry so long, but when deciding on a stereo system there is alot ot consider. ??? I know I install them. ;D ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted January 30, 2003 Report Share Posted January 30, 2003 The BEST thing you can do, as far as hearing lots of different equipment, is to go to a few sound shows. If you're really serious about auto sound it's really the only way to go. Try to go to a show sponsored by a shop that sells LOTS of different equipment. That way every car that comes through isn't loaded up with all the same stuff. If you're not so serious, Best Buy quality stuff is probably good enough. Sometimes you can find some really decent stuff on Ebay too. Every once in awhile I see a PPI amp like Kev's go for about $250ish. The old good Fosgate stuff (ix and dsm series I believe) goes pretty cheap too. Like a Punch 200ix or 200dsm for about $200ish. I wouldn't buy speakers on ebay unless they were new in the box tho.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kev Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 Every once in awhile I see a PPI amp like Kev's go for about $250ish. I only payed $250 for my amp in 94, hehe. But my brother owns a car stereo company, hehe (got it for 50% off the normal price). My brother has been in the car audio industry for 15 years. I swear that everytime I see him he has a different product that he claims is the "best" and the product that he claimed was the "best" last month is now crap, lol. With audio systems, you usually get what you pay for. My best advice is spend the money on a very good quality amplifier and run cheaper speakers and a cheap head unit. That is the best bang for the buck. I see too many people spending an arm and a leg on these new fancy dancy head units and then like $100 for an amplifier and they wonder why their stereo system doesn't sound right! I always ran very cheap head units, in fact I had an old Kenwood 7Wx4 radio in my conquest for years. That head unit was the best for my system! The only reason I pulled it out was I wanted to run two sets of RCA cables so I could have more control on the sound at the head unit (the kenwood only had one set). Right now I am running an older model $150 Pioneer P300 head unit. It is pretty nice actually but I still liked my Kenwood a little better. kev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 Your brother and I need to have a talk. I usually just wait until the equipment I want hits the used market, so I end up getting it for 50% off that way. It's kinda funny, by the time I had enough cash saved up for my ZPA 0.5 phoenix gold stopped making it! Used was my only option. Anyhow, I have to disagree with your head unit arguement. Your system will never sound any better than the signal coming from the deck. I don't care if you have $10,000 of McIntosh amps in your trunk, a $50 head unit in your dash will make your car sound like crap. My offical policy to to buy the best of everything. ;D Very few, myself included, can afford that. I just save up indefinately and buy it one peice at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burton Posted January 31, 2003 Report Share Posted January 31, 2003 in agreement to what maxwelhse says, even tho bass is non directional you can get funny distortions from the car, box, sub,etc... i found in my 3 years installing systems at a stereo shop here that in a hatckback you need to point the subs up toward the glass or towards the back of the car- it helps to muffle distortions. if you aim it toward the front the subs will kinda "bark" and that distortion will be carried to your ear by the air moving away from the sub. most distortion is of a higher frequency than the bass so the bass is non directional but the distortion is. also like maxwelhse said the subs will sound lower facing the rear so you would probably get good all around bass for any music with tens facing up or toward the rear. i however am a 30 year old bass head so i'm putting in 2 jl 12's. i'll take the back seats out if i have to to fit them into the small trunk just my 2 cents burton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draggin_Quest Posted February 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 Thanks for all the advice everbody. I just have one more question. How big of a box am I going to need for a 12? How big for a 10? I have a guitar that I caryy in my trunk a lot so I have to be able to fit that in the trunk. I mounted the cd changer on the back of the rear pass seat, so I can just flip the seat down to change cds. So I am going to put the sub on the drivers side of the trunk. So how big does it need to be? Thanks Draggin_Quest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck641 Posted February 3, 2003 Report Share Posted February 3, 2003 for a single 12" a the box should be about 14x14 by about 12" deep and for a 10" sub about 12x12x11 ... thats for a box thats sealed and the face of the sub is in open air... when you pick out a sub it will tell you how many cubic inches of airspace you need depending on the box, if you get a bandpass box (sealed on both sides of the speaker) the volume of the box can be smaller. also you can make the volume of the box smaller if you use stuffing in the box. so those dimensions i gave you are about the biggest your box would be. -Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted February 4, 2003 Report Share Posted February 4, 2003 JL audio makes some subs that require almost no air space and actually sound good. I'm a big fan of their products. Although mine JL10W4s are an older (and unfortunately discontinued) model, they only require .60 cubic feet of air space in a sealed enclosure and have a mounting depth of 5 1/8". When I bought them they were the shallowest small box sub in the world. I have a trio of them in my car, and they pound just fine. 8) However, I still perfer 12's and I will be switching off when the money becomes available. Anyway, if it was me doing an install in a Starion and I had to have rear cargo room, I would probably go with a single 12" in a custom box that went across the back of the seat. You shouldn't lose more than 7" of trunk depth at the floor. If the installer was really talented you could probably get that cut back to about 5.5". Now, if it was me and I was me, I'd put 4 12's in the back of that thing and say hell with the luggage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessN16 Posted February 20, 2003 Report Share Posted February 20, 2003 maxwelhse, A few questions. I'm a sound system veteran (19-speaker, 4x PPI competition system in an SHO from years ago) who is about to develop a system for a 1987 Starion. Rather than go with a lot of components and drivers, I'm keeping this simple. I'm using a pair of Boston Acoustic components up front ($999 for the pair -- enough to make me choke, but the sound quality is impressive) and an Xtant 3-channel, ~400-watt amp to drive the BAs up front and either a single JL 10", JL 12" or AudioMobile 10" sub. I'm also going to put a cap on this system, and I'm using a Kenwood dual-DIN receiver up front. First question, can someone give me the specs (price, power rating, where to get it) on Tim C.'s alternator. Secondly, since keeping the spare tire, the back seat, and *some* trunk room is key, what are my chances of doing a single 12" for this application (the JL doesn't require much airspace). By the way, that Xtant piece is a jewel. I'm going to post pics post-install...the design cues of that amplifier couldn't match the design cues of our cars any better if it had to. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 I unfortunately don't know much about Tim's alternator. From what the other guys have said it sounds like an impressive peice when it comes to bolt on performance. If you send him a PM I'm sure he could lay it all out for you... As for your second question, I think a single 12 is very possible for your application. Starquests are packed tight, but not that tight. It's been awhile since I was in the market for a small box sub, but JL has pretty much always led the masses when it comes to such things (as I'm sure you know). I've also been impressed with some of Image Dynamics' speakers. The IDQ series was, and may still be, the winningest sub in IASCA history (if not then it's a JL again ). I'm not sure where you plan to mount the amp, but the box screams to be built across the back of the back seat. A single, shallow 12 should go in there without much trouble. If the day comes that you need to access the spare you can just flip the seat up and flip the box up with it. In fact, that's about the only place I think you could get a 12 and have any hope of truck space unless you built a false floor. I agree with you about those Xtant amps. They're impressive for single amp systems. I very nearly went that direction myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JessN16 Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 maxwelhse, Thanks for the response. That's pretty much the direction I'm planning to take. I've actually thought about using one of Kicker's square subs just because of the angular look (would match the car and the amp), and it actually sounds a lot better than I thought it would. I had the original series Kicker C-12s in a Ford Tempo and later the Taurus SHO, but since then nothing Kicker has done (with perhaps the exception of the original SoloBaric) is really that good. Also, I think the squares need too much air. I'm planning to mount the JL 12 facing up with the Xtant amp on the back of the box where you can see it when you open up the car. The box will probably be made of fiberglass. I'd like to put some type of shield over the amp to hide it, but I don't want to get into cooling issues. At least the Xtant has built-in fans. Question: Do you recommend keeping the cargo cover thingy in the car, or do I need to get rid of this? The way it rides on the trunk struts, I fear it will bang around too much and create noises and rattles. But I would really like to keep my stuff hidden. Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxwelhse Posted February 21, 2003 Report Share Posted February 21, 2003 You could sheild the amp with a section of chrome plated grate. The grate is cheap to buy, super heavy duty, wouldn't cause cooling issues, and would look sweet next to an Xtant. I imagine you'd have about $50 in the entire thing, plating and everything. I have a few large steel mesh covers from Sun servers that I plan to use as amp protection in my Olds. I definately think you should keep some kind cover over your gear, or some super super super dark hatch tint. Both of the Conquests I had didn't have that little platform thing, so I'm not very familiar with how the factory setup works. I would think that a 1/4" section of particle board, hinged at one end and attached to the hatch at the other with strings (the way a lot of hatch covers are built) would probably work fine. You may need to put some foam rubber stops on the bottom of it to keep it from rattling around though. Another thought would be to steal a page from the AMC book. My Eagle uses a window shade type of cover in the cargo area. You could affix the shade to the top of your enclosure and attach a hook of somesort to the rear of the cargo area. You can get window shades in any color you want and cut to width at JC Penny for about $20. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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