megasquirt?

[supturbo]

OK,  WHO IS USING THIS SYSTEM ON A MPI SET-UP?

I AM THINKING ABOUT GETTING ONE, BUT NEED SOME

ADVICE..THE PUTTING TOGETHER PART IS A PIECE OF

CAKE, BUT HOW USER FRIENDLY IS THE SOFTWARE TO

GET THE CAR TO RUN PROPERLY..

[shift1313]

have you surfed their site yet?  i am putting one together right now and so is locquest.  eeaston has one up and running on his stock tbi setup.  if you want to know how user friendly it is just down load the megatune software and take a look.  looks like a piece of cake. also you can adjust things while the car is running which is a big plus.  you can see what changes what.

[LocQuest_Monster]

Hey Matt my freind and I got mine going today and started tuning it.It's a kick butt system thus far. I'm quite impressed with it!Tomorrow we'll get it so it will make up a map from the driving we've done so far and build from that.We have the wide band Honda O2 input which makes a night and day difference from narrow band along with EGT probe and gauge.So far day 1 has gone quite well.These guys that developed this system know what there doing and did a great job.If you have the ability to do a little soldering than your home free.I'll keep you posted.

 

Scott      

[shift1313]

thats great scott!!! still no head on my car so no test and tune yet.  let me know how things go.  Im thinking of going WB also, it seems the right thing to do. how much did it run you?  bruce and al spent a lot of time designing megasquirt and it shows.  im glad they are such stand up guys and they dont charge a grand like everyone else.  i cant wait for the latest system, the ignition, megajolt i think.  it will interface with megaquirt and i think will make for a great ride.  

once again congrats.

what did you use for your base VE table?  

[TopDawg_43]

I just looked at the MegaSquirt software, and I couldn't find where the igntion maps where.  Does the MegaSquirt control the ignitoion also?  If not, what are you using for your ignition system?

[propeine]

Right now megasquirt does not control ignition.  They are currently working on making the megajolt which will control ignition.  According to the site they're about 3 months from completion with that.  I will most likely use that system eventually but since my car isnt running right now its not really a big deal.

 

 

Tom

[TopDawg_43]

Right now megasquirt does not control ignition.  They are currently working on making the megajolt which will control ignition.  According to the site they're about 3 months from completion with that.  I will most likely use that system eventually but since my car isnt running right now its not really a big deal.

 

 

Tom

 

Oh, I thought the Megasquirt was an engine management system, when it's really just a fuel management system.  Could be why it cost so much less.

 

So if this only controls your fuel, and you want to go MPI with this, what are you going to use to control your ignition?

 

Take it EZ

[supturbo]

YOU USE THE STOCK DISTRIBUTOR AND..THE MEGASQUIRT GETS CONNECTED TO THE TACH WIRE.

[CHC]

I am looking at the Megasquirt as well. From what I saw it seems a very good, but also very easy to manage for the novice.

 

I have no doubts I can put it togeather, I have taken to electronics classes in college so far, so the construction be be a no-brainer.

 

If many are worried about ignition, why not go crank or cam even for the trigger?  with coil packs?

 

I have seen in digikey's web site for reflective and magnetic triggers. You run Varistors as the "tuning" knobs 1 per output to slow down, speed up the spark transmission.

 

The overall design like that would be fairly easy, and low cost. get the coil packs that the GNX's use(same for the injectors for me) and have a ball.

 

I may be able to design a quick and easy control setup when I get time. damn I can't wait till classes are over.. just another 5 weeks...

[TopDawg_43]

If many are worried about ignition, why not go crank or cam even for the trigger?  with coil packs?

 

I have seen in digikey's web site for reflective and magnetic triggers. You run Varistors as the "tuning" knobs 1 per output to slow down, speed up the spark transmission.

 

The overall design like that would be fairly easy, and low cost. get the coil packs that the GNX's use(same for the injectors for me) and have a ball.

 

If I'm understanding it correctly, you can't use coil packs with the Megasquirt.  You'll hae to use the stock disturbutor and the stock ECU, or an ignition box (like MSD, Accell, etc.......).

[conquestpa]

Forget about what you think you know about the ignition.

 

This is what you need to know:

 

The MS (megasquirt) controls fuel only, going off the tach signal, MAP, o2, and water temp sensors.

 

The Stock SQ (starquest) ECU, has nothing to do with the ignition (as far as Im concerned).  The ignition in a SQ is controlled by the distributor, weights in the distributor, vaccuumm adavance and the black ignition / knock control box (basically the same thing as an MSD). In 88/89 models, the ignition is a little different, but regardless, the ignition system in a quest is pretty much standalone from the ECU.

 

SO when running a MS ECU, it is only used for fuel control. Theres so many tweaks to this systems that you can make its amazing. I know if doesn't do hall effect and all those things that Joel is always talking about but for $150 you CANT BEAT| IT!

 

Check out the megasquirt faq. I dont have the link on this machine, but I will post it later.

[CHC]

If I'm understanding it correctly, you can't use coil packs with the Megasquirt.  You'll hae to use the stock disturbutor and the stock ECU, or an ignition box (like MSD, Accell, etc.......).

 

Well, Mega, only does fuel. For now anyway.

 

What I was saying is that you CAN/COULD make a standalone type system, that would operate Coil packs that are fired by a MSD type system. You have the base ignition system controlled off a senor on the crank.($30 bucks maybe)

 

But you could then run a boost retard(MSD) in between the system and the coil pack that would adjust timing on PSI.

 

I would personally like a DIS system over a Distributor based system. You just have more control on the fly, not to mention alot more adjustability available.

 

I will be very interested in the "Megavolt" system specs when it comes out.

 

But unfourtunately this is what happens when a vehicle has multiple ECM's to control the car. if it was all tied into one ECM, things would be alot easier.

[CHC]

I read Mega's website, but still wonder how it controls fuel, with no real air measurement sensor? I saw MAP, but that is a very generic measurement. Does anyone know if it can use MAF sensors?

[conquestpa]

actually a map sensor is a pretty sensitive device...

 

 

 

check this out guys:

 

http://members.shaw.ca/megasquirt/MS%20FAQ.htm

 

all your answers are here...

 

The way I think of it is, the MS runs the injectors and when your running 2000+ RPM, the injector pulse does not need to be very accurate... By time you up at 3000RPM, I think this system is just as good as any other standalone.

[shift1313]

it uses the map, you set the VE table.  theres no need for a maf if you know the pressure you can if you want though.  this way only using the map it frees up alot more airflow which our mas restricts.  the map sensor reads absolute manifold pressure and also barametric pressure for startup enrichment, i think it might also adjust for altitude, no a huge concern on my part so i didnt bother reading much into it.  You can run MS with a crank trigger setup, they have everything you need to do but every fast car with the 2.6 you see has the stock dist setup.  I see no advantage going crank trigger, just more electronics to break.    when bruce and all get the megajolt system done it will interface with megasquirt so you will be able to set in advance and retart points on the ignition and everything can be tuned incar on the fly.  The way it works now is you upload and dowload different VE tables and settings to the controller and it stores them, you dont need a comp to run the system.  

 

I took this straight from the megasquirt faq page

"Q: Why didn't you use a mass airflow sensor instead of a MAP sensor?

 

 

A: Because we made a speed-density system first and then added Alpha-N later, both of which will run a car, and run it well. All three systems have their pros and cons, and we are not advocating one over another. Feel free to adapt the system to utilize a MAF sensor - it's really is not that hard. "

 

 

so if you didnt want to use the map or you want to use it in conjunction with a MAF or MAS it can be done and im sure the yahoo list serve guys would help out.  they are very helpful,  but it is not needed.

 

if that was confusing let me try to clarify.  you set your AF ratio and megasquirt uses inputs like pressure, temp, O2 and so on to adjust the fuel and try to get it to your set AF range.  the VE table allows you to lean or richen the whole deal.  so the map will handle up to 30psi i think, if you guys are gonna run the system over that some mods will be needed but anything under that it will handle well.  For our cars since they're turbo you can tune more in the boosted range and let megasquirt adjust off boost by trying to keep it as close to stoich as possible(since theres not much offboost except idle and crusing. because of that i reccomend a heated o2 so your MS always has an o2 signal, at cruise sometimes it can cool down enough to not be accurate or read at all.  by reading in the map the comp knows how much fuel it will need to get the appropriate ratio.  MAF sensor read air flow same as MAS just slighty different.  

[TopDawg_43]

Forget about what you think you know about the ignition.

 

I wonder if that is suppose to be some kind of put down or something  : ???

 

Must feel like I'm Dawging his stuff.

 

Whatevea man.

 

And to curb your enthusiasm, the stcok ECU does have some control over the ignition.

 

 

8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

[88BlueTSiquest]

And to curb your enthusiasm, the stcok ECU does have some control over the ignition.

 

 

8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

 

But isn't the ECU's only control over the timing, it's ability to not let the coil fire. I was wondering how the retard would work myself, as the ECU has no direct wiring to the distributor, so there doesn't appear to be any form of electronic solenoid in which the ECU could move to actually retard the timing. My guess is, under a knock situation the Ignitor box just denies the coil the voltage needed to fire. So an MSD box and the megasquirt looks to be all you'd need for a complete standalone system, aside from your gauges inside the car.

 

Just my take, I'm trying to learn about this stuff too....

[DJpowerHaus]

What's the dealio with the 88/89 ignition?  I've been reading the yahoo listserve stuff for months and I am ready to order a kit (just in time for summer break).

 

I plan on elimintation all my stock sensors since they are all going to hell anyways.  You can get rid of the whole MAS sensor.. its a big restriction and it can be gone.  I'll probably pick up a used manifold and convert it to MPI.  Down the road I'll get a Magna or something.

 

Heck.. I think I'll order the Msquirt anyways.. I can always sell it for more than I paid if I get it working.

[shift1313]

topdawg, im not saying your wrong i just had a different understanding of things.  doesnt the ignitor control it and not the ecu?  or is the knock sensor wired to the ecu then wired to the knock box?  im not really sure.

 

and on the megasquirt thing.  you can run it on your stock tbi system and see gains.  just by getting rid of the MAS thats a huge improvement in air flow.

[conquestpa]

Its not a put down just a way of learning. Its hard to teach an old dog new tricks, know what I mean?

 

Anyway

 

Im 99% sure that a stock SQ ignition is totally independant of the ECU.

[88BlueTSiquest]

Anyway

 

Im 99% sure that a stock SQ ignition is totally independant of the ECU.

 

 

That would be my thought on it. You can eliminate the ECU and everything, bolt on a carb, give the coil power, and fire the engine up.

 

I believe the only control over the ignition is at the coil pack itself. Which would mean the only thing the computer can do, is deny the coil voltage to fire.

[TopDawg_43]

topdawg, im not saying your wrong i just had a different understanding of things.  doesnt the ignitor control it and not the ecu?  or is the knock sensor wired to the ecu then wired to the knock box?  im not really sure.

 

and on the megasquirt thing.  you can run it on your stock tbi system and see gains.  just by getting rid of the MAS thats a huge improvement in air flow.

 

I'm not exactly sure how the ECU effects the ignition, but I know it does.  The ignition and the fuel injection is tied together through the ECU, so that you have one complete system working run the engine.  It's like to legs that come together at your a$$.

 

ConquestPA~ It's all good.  Remember, we all have the same love, Starquest  

 

Take it EZ

[chiplee]

That would be my thought on it. You can eliminate the ECU and everything, bolt on a carb, give the coil power, and fire the engine up.

 

I believe the only control over the ignition is at the coil pack itself. Which would mean the only thing the computer can do, is deny the coil voltage to fire.

 

I'm sure that's how lizzord was able to run his car with the Hawk controlling fuel and the stock system controlling timing.  He has seen the light and started wiring up the Hawk to run both, but it did work the other way for a while with no real problems.

 

 

CHC:  about this line "You just have more control on the fly, not to mention alot more adjustability available. "  I'm not an expert at much of anything, especially SAEM, but in the interest of improving my/our understanding of ignition control I have a question.  I'm under the impression that all distributor based systems are not created equal.  I've always just accepted DIS to be better for its improved control and adjustment range, but now that I have the Hawk EC21 installed and tuned I'm not so sure about the adjustment range part.  I guess the control might be better in that it acts faster, but even that is a guess.  I can set anywhere from 0/tdc to 50btdc with the hawk because it uses the distributor as a crank trigger.  The hawk is a stand alone system that gets a crank position reference 60 degrees before TDC and delays the required number of degrees to deliver the timing that has been programed.  Correct me if I'm wrong but that's exactly what DIS systems do.  For instance, at 85% load and 6000 rpm I want a spark at 25BTDC, so it waits 35 degrees of rotation after the trigger, and then fires the ignitor, which triggers the coil which triggers the plug, via the distributor, all in the blink of an eye.  Since the distributor rotates at half engine speed this range of adjustment is believable as the rotor is about 1/2 inch wide and would make contact even if it was in the vicinity of the cap contact point.  I have found this to be as programable as one could hope for, but it relies on a different distributor than stock because phasing, or the position of the hall effect sensor inside the distributor has to be right, and the wieghts and springs have to go.  The inside of the magna distributor is very simple and it's movement varies directly with the gear that drives it, and it is phased perfectly to double as both a crank trigger and distributor.  You can't move the rotor without moving the engine like you can on a vacuum modulated distributor.  If this megasquirt can't control timing then you're stuck with stock timing curves and the limited adjustment you get from changing base timing by moving the distributor to set say 12btdc at idle.  not ideal, but better than nothing.  I was under the impression megasquirt was a stand alone system or I'd have been more vocal, earlier about this aspect that I consider a limitation.  Oh and as for my question, does this sound logical or have I misunderstood something?

[DJpowerHaus]

Very logical Chip.  I think the reason people want MegaSquirt isnt becuase they need the best.  But it is the ONLY way to program fuel for 4 injectors for under $200.

[chiplee]

I understand that.  I just can't, in good conscience, go without voicing the fact that the base price for the Hawk is only $600, and 'till you buy what you need to buy to get the full standalone system thing happening (megajolt or volt or whatever), you'll be getting close to that.  Stock timing is quite conservative, and something you'll want to eliminate asap.  You could experiment with changing timing curves by changing the guts of the distributor but you'd be in uncharted territory and likely to preignite at some point.  I know what cash constraints are like, but I know doing it twice always costs more.  I do not in any way mean to imply that there won't be excellent results with the megasquirt.  I'm just making sure all the info is out there, and people aren't thinking that because they get a megasquirt that uses a distributor, it's the same as getting a standalone system that uses a distributor.  These are two very different animals.